Dylan Waco

The problem is there was no big stage, the screen was hanging from the ceiling and we have photographic evidence that no areas were roped off/lost for hard camera use/et. It is theoretically possible that the 78k figure is correct, but if it is it has nothing to do with those factors at all. And I think it is far more likely that the number is in between the 78 and 93k

Their talent pool has been overrated for years. I'm sure there are guys that work their who would do well in the WWE. I'm thinking of guys like Robbie E or maybe even Kazarian who I could see being good for eight minute matches on NXT v. Jimmy Uso. But as far as guys where their talent is readily obvious and shining through despite the booking to one degree or another...well. Roode is good enough, but highly overrated. Storm is very good in theory, but has not had a really good match in a couple of years. Jarrett can work when he wants to, as can Styles, but both have been Joe/Homicided to one degree or another and don't appear to give a shit. Magnus is overrated, but probably more good than bad. Aries is good at what he does. Kash is good, but not really put in a position to show what he is good at. Bully Ray is good and stands out as the best guy in the promotion. Other than that I see some mediocrity and outright shit (Abyss, Matt Morgan, Anderson, RVD, Crimson, Gunner, Garrett Bischoff, Angle, et). Last year they had a handful of matches I really liked, the best of which was the LMS with Ray v. Styles that was pretty great. After that those two had a good house show match in December, Aries had a couple of good matches with Kendrick and...?

You will sometimes get a type of face in peril during the rudo beatdown sections, particularly when it's a trios being used to set up a wager match. To me the great thing about trios is that there are so many different styles, whether it's a comedy match or a brawling trios; fast paced and high flying or all matwork. Often the best matches are a combination of all those styles. You always know that if the rudos win the first fall then the technicos will have to make a comeback in the second or if the technicos win the opening fall the rudos will dominate the second, and so on, but there's a number of ways they can play it and they're able to shorten or lengthen the falls to control the rhythm. Once you learn the basic format of everyone squaring off once and then either swapping partners the second time round or speeding things up, then the way either rudo dominance or technico momentum overlaps each fall and leads to a turning point or swing in momentum then trios matches are easy to follow. OJ touches on one of the reasons I found Lucha so easy to get into once I quit being a dumbass and actually started watching. With trios matches it is very rare that I find a match that I think is completely objectionable or total shit. There are trios matches I haven't liked to be sure, but the vast, vast majority have at least a few sequences that I think look great, or a couple of huge spots that are generally more well built to than they would be in a standard indy spotfest, or a great "all hell breaks loose" beat down segment, or all of the above. I also find it really interesting and fun to watch the particular pairings in the matches and see who looks sharpest in what sort of segment. Another thing I love about Lucha is that there are not an absurd use of near falls. When you do get a near fall heave match (I recall Virus v. Stuka Jr. from last year being one but I may be remembering details a bit wrong) it stands out more and feels less by the numbers than what you often get in the States, let alone Japan. Speaking of Virus, that Virus v. Guerrero Maya Jr. match from last year is something everyone ought to give a chance

Garvin feud with Chris Adams superior to HHH feud with Austin

I agree with this, but would add that I think Casas v. Sombra might be the easiest of the bunch to fall in love with if you are a new comer. It's got the old vet v. young gun thing going on, some really dynamic spots, the expressive genius of Casas (which is something I generally think Luchadores are better at, but Casas is arguably the greatest of all time), and a big match feel. It's not my favorite match of the bunch, but it is a great match and something I think would translate well for newer fans

Off air I threatened to kill Dave and everyone he loves

So if you make a comparison to two wrestlers you are familiar with it's a smartass move? Okay... I actually have a general question - who are the upper tier of draws in Lucha history. Obviously El Santo is god king, but beneath that level who is in the discussion. Cien Caras would seem like one based on what I know. I'm curious about Canek

When I first got into All Japan by reading match reviews by jdw and others, my initial thought wasn't "why the fuck is one of the Dynamic Dudes mixing it up with the top stars on the show?" It was "I really want to see these matches." One of the problems with discussing Lucha relative to other styles is that a lot of people are so dismissive of it that discussions constantly get derailed into debates about why Lucha "isn't like" other wrestling or some variation thereof. When I see a thread filled with match recommendations and OJ making interesting observations about Lucha as a whole and the first discussion point is "so what the fuck was the deal with Konan and Vampiro?" I think it pretty obviously defeats the purpose of the thread. I'll say this, I've been wanting to add some comments on matches and wrestlers to this thread, but as soon as I saw the talk shift in that direction I immediately thought "why bother."

Maybe we should have a beginner's guide to All Japan where we talk about Gary Albright and how much he sucked, or discuss why Wajima was pushed.

I have to ask - how many women were in these classes?

Criticizing the GM feud is idiotic. It's the only feud that is over and working right now. I agree it would have been nice to see some of the guys featured in better ways, but the way they have set it up has easily been more compelling than the set up for any other match on Mania

Anyone who has not seen the glories of Mr. Donnie has no clue what they are missing. Seriously the most terrifying ringside presence I can remember. I want to hear drunken Buck Zumhoffe stories

http://www.talkshoe.com/talkshoe/web/talkC...2658&cmd=tc Episode 17 which amusingly is labeled as episode 27! Dave runs down the fun at last nights Toronto debut of Chikara! We then preview every match that is taking place on every show in the history of the universe during Mania weekend. This includes lengthy discussions of why we both like Michael Elgin, Eddie Kingston as indy ace, guesses about who the DGUSA "mystery luchadore" will be, complaints about the build to Mania and predictions about the future for half of the WWE roster. Two plus hours of loud mouth wrestletalk bullshit, from the kings of loud mouth wrestletalk bullshit!

I watched the Nagata v. Kono Cage Match. I really wanted to like it and the meat of it is good, but the opening was weak and the stretch run was complete and utter dog shit.

Balls Mahoney should have been one of the first ones that came to mind. I don't even if he looked worse as Boo Bradley or Balls. I do know he looks like he's on deaths door these days

He is crazy fucking over. Every time I've gone to a live event and he comes out he gets a huge fucking pop. At Mania his music had my entire section getting up to do the Teddy dance. I used to love the little strut he did to the ring in the Doom days I also enjoyed him on the Legends panel talking about how he got into the business by being a gopher

Man there are clips of Gilbert v. Lawler match from last year at the same place that ran the Lawler six-man I talked about in the MOTYC thread. Anyhow Doug looks SO fucking fucked there. Hamrick actually looks less scummy now than he did then, which is saying something since he now rocks the vinyl/garbage bag gear. I feel like we are missing some obvious ones

Mr. Donnie is the king of the scumfucks.

There should be some AWF on the Set. Maybe not a ton, but some. For example I know Sabu worked Candido in 91 for the AWF. No clue if the match was good but that would be a good match to throw on as a glimpse at the early indy hero scene in a company that was trying to work nationally

Doug Somers is a good one. He's still active and actually a pretty good worker even now. And yes he is a scumbag looking motherfucker

You have no clue how disappointing it is for me to discover that Billy Black's father was born in Philly

A very large percentage of voters follow Dave's cue and his narratives. I don't even think that is arguable.

Holy shit Billy Black's dad was a wrestler? Pics?

You don't agree that the vertical was sold as less dangerous than a German in the U.S. during that period? I literally can't fathom anyone actually believing that, but okay. Anyhow I don't even necessarily disagree if your point, I just never found it terribly annoying, because I don't remember it being a spot they beat into the ground, I don't remember it being a transition spot where the counter would exist absent selling after the fact (I really have no problem with the spot in that context to be honest), and I don't see it as something that was nearly as bad as some of the transition spots that I have seen before and after that time period.

Was thinking about this after the brief discussion on Buck Robley in the HHH thread. We talked about Buck there but here are others guys that come to mind: Chris Colt - I actually just finished reading his bio in the Greg Oliver Heels Hall of Fame book (aside: great book, but totally absurd that Buddy Rose is not listed in the book and guys like Colt are) and he was a far more interesting guy than he is given credit for. I love him in the Portland footage as this total scuzzbag, grimey, street punk getting in fights with grandma. He literally looks and works like an LA hustler who would have been hanging out with Darby Crash turning tricks for dope money. Sadly that may have not been that far from the truth if you believe some of the stuff written on the guy. Still he's one of my favorite random guys around. Bobby Bass - The highlight of Maritimes wrestling and a guy I would seriously watch anything from if it popped up. Total trash bag looking motherfucker. Basically has the feel of a redneck bastard, who stumbled out of his big rig to work a match in between meth fueled coast-to-coast trips. Has this faded as fuck ring gear, had the best nickname ever (No Class, Bobby Bass), and was always good for some horribly douchey schtick like waiving an American flag in Sunny War Cloud's face (which was way more over the top than I make it sound there). Chris Colt comes across like someone who would have played with GG Allin in the Murder Junkies, Bobby Bass comes across like his dad. Hack Myers - Maybe my all time favorite look in wrestling. His gear looked like some bizarre pajama/trunks hybrid and even at a young age he looked like he was in his 60's. Always looked to me like a guy who walked off the set of 8mm, and the "Last House on The Left" billing just added to that.