Dylan Waco

Sting Sting is a whole lot better than Helmsley ever was. There are a lot of criticisms you can make of Sting as a worker (cue Vic with the "like?" reply), but in some he brought a real energy to his matches and could deliver in a huge way between the bells. The Vader series alone is better than HHH's entire career in the ring, and those were not Vader carry jobs as a Sting was the perfect foil for him. I'm not in love with the Sting v. Regal matches, but they are matches closer in form to what HHH claims he is as a wrestler than anything HHH has ever done. The Foley brawls are really excellent. Sting was a highspot machine at times for a heavy of his size, but was not really a spotty wrestler. He could sell - particularly fatigue - really well and was very strong at playing the fired up babyface without crossing the line into the World of the super cartoony. He was also really good at getting over both his finishers which is something I am a fan of in wrestling. Even post-crow Sting would surprise you with matches and performances where he was working above what the traditional conception of him was. I will say that HHH was a better opponent for Flair which will sound blasphemous or crazy to a lot of people. But aside from that I can't think of any area where I would give HHH in the edge. Lex Luger Luger laps HHH. I always thought HHH would have been thousands of times better if he had aped Luger's 89 character. I doubt he could have or would have done it, but it seems like it would have been a better fit than what we got. Luger was a good wrestler from 87-92 with flashes of greatness in 89 and parts of 88. If you put peak HHH in 89 I don't think he has matches near that quality with Hayes, Rich, Pillman or even Steamboat. Luger was also a better opponent for Flair so there goes that advantage for HHH. Post-prime Luger was also better than post-prime HHH. I wouldn't argue if someone said that HHH had better matches after his prime than Luger did after his, but Luger was a really fun character in 96 and 97 WCW and worked hard more often than not. Those Bret matches a bit later were better than any HHH tv match I have seen in the last ten years. HHH was more successful at parlaying his affair with well known female wrestling personality into major career advancement so there is that. Davey Boy Smith I think DBS is pretty clearly better than HHH. Yeah Bret carried him through that one match, but he didn't carry them at the superior IYH match and Davey could go when he wanted to. I actually thought he was a better HHH, than HHH as he actually had some decent chain wrestling technique that allowed him to work as both a powerhouse and as a "ring general" type in the right setting. Over all he undercheived for his talent level, but there are still far more DBS matches where I thought he was a standout than HHH matches of the same sort. Owen Hart This isn't close. Owen was one of the most naturally gifted wrestlers I've ever seen. A guy who could go on cruise control and have a good match. At times this led Owen to do less than he could have, but he had far more quality than not. Hell I recently discovered a match with him and Greg Valentine that would probably be a top five match ever in the career of HHH and you got the feelling watching it that it was a normal Blue Blazer era house show match for Owen.

I just watched it. It was better than I expected but I have bare bottom expectations for modern puro. I agree with John's criticism of the Square Dance routine finishing run, but I didn't have any problem with the dropkick spot as he sold the leg in the immediate aftermath. To me it's no different than Kawada taking a german, popping up and hitting a clothesline. I did think his leg selling was spotty in the match over all, but at least they made a point to go back to it and I liked that Okada targed Naito's head and sort of stuck with that throughout the match. I also thought it was reasonably well segmented and was far less "your turn, my turn" than I had feared aside from the finishing run. I think some of the submission spots looked really shitty and unconvincing, but over all I have no problem calling it a good match. It wouldn't be in my top ten for this year though

You still can't take sarcasm. Chill out a bit. I'll get back to you on this as soon as I get through SMW TV, which may be sooner than later. I may or may not agree with you on this. Needless to say I would be shocked to see New Jack being actually good, but I don't think I could be blamed for this. I can take sarcasm, but if it's stupid I'm going to point it out. I'm not saying Jack was a great wrestler in 95 - he wasn't. But he had fundamentals. He was a surprisingly good at playing both a chickenshit heel AND a savage brawler depending the match/opponent. His diving clothesline really was a great looking spot. He was the beginning of a very good wrestler who went up North and found trash cans full of plunder and that was that.

I apologize to Bix for being so late to answer him. Hiromichi/Ricky/Samson/Kodo Fuyuki Fuyuki smokes HHH based on the AJPW run alone. I have not gone back and watched the FMW stuff in years and wonder how I would like it. At the time I didn't think much of it, but in a sense he sort of reminds me of a HHH a bit during that era. But the AJPW stuff is awesome. I actually thought he was the better worker in the Footloose team for big chunks of their run. In 88 he was holy shit level great, an offensive dynamo, bump freak and a great guy to build heat off of. Pat Tanaka was awesome and Fuyuki was the World's best Pat Tanaka. HHH was the World's best Alex Porteau...maybe. Manabu Nakanishi I am really soft on Nakanishi. Don't hate him nearly as much as others. Still I struggle to think of good performances from him, or even matches where he was carried as successfully as Trip could be at times. I think in terms of what they bring to the game this is pretty lateral, but HHH has had better dance partners and wrestled in a style that is far more suited to his capabilities (and to covering up the ones he lacks). Mike Awesome I honestly think I would take HHH over Awesome. Awesome was a guy who was really fun the first few times you saw him but wore out really quick. I would not call him bad really because he had his act and it worked for him. But he was a terrible promo and his one speed was not something that I thought fit well unless he had someone to bump huge for him. Another guy who I could flip on if I saw some FMW Virgil I remember really liking some NWO B-Team Vincent. For angles with spoiled white man of privilege exploiting the services of minorities/women, Dibiase/Virigil was more entertaining to watch unfold than HHH/Chyna was. Plus Virgil/Dibiase had a pretty good blow off. Honestly I can't make a case for Virgil, but I do wish HHH had a more Virgil like role. Kendall Windham Kendall was better. That will seem like a troll to some people, maybe even a lot of people but I don't give a shit. Skinny dipshit Kendall was an underrated wrestler who had good mechanics. Old man Kendall was one of the kings of WCWSN and a tough surly bastard. For stables led by egregious overbumpers wearing cowboy hats, West Texas Rednecks were way better than DX also. Scott Norton Would really need to go back and watch some NJPW to be totally fair here, but I remember liking Norton a good bit as a brick wall with his some tight looking offense. I doubt he's got a top five that matches HHH's top five, but he's probably got a disproportionate amount of fun tv matches, whereas HHH was often a tv killer. I don't really feel comfortable putting Norton over HHH but I get the feeling that I would like more Fire and Ice matches than 2003 HHH matches. Reckless Youth Have not seen a Reckless Youth match in a long, long time. I cannot imagine HHH was better mind you, but I can't even remember the last time I saw an RY match or even thought about him in a meaningful way as a worker. The Amazing Red I prefer Red by a safe margin. Red had flaws but he was a truly dynamic performer who could do the "never before seen" schtick and it worked because it was never before seen. The Low Ki matches still hold up really well for me and even his recent appearances show that he is still a super entertaining spot wrestler. If someone was selling a best of Red comp I'd think about buying it. If someone was selling a best of HHH comp? Well.. Trent Acid Not really a Trent Acid fan, but someone can feel free to point me to matches.

Please can the "there are no great finds" schtick. New Jack was a great promo in SMW and a surprisingly competent wrestler. Bell to bell HHH was better than Jack for a variety of reasons, not the least of which is the fact that Jack never bothered to build on the surprisingly solid tools he had in 95. All around HHH was never as good as Jack was in 95.

Can you let us know which claims you think are outrageous? Saying New Jack being easily better than about anyone is outrageous to me, although I haven't seen any of his SMW work. Still, New Jack in ECW was crap, pure and simple. FF material every time. I didn't even think he was a particulary good promo there (and really, I have a hard time enjoying any promo when I know the match will be pure shit). That would be it as far as "outrageous" goes. Yeah, I really don't care for Triple H after 1997... That bolded part

Ill dig more into specific names later, possibly tonight as I have a lot of stuff on my plate. Just wanted to note that I think HHH basically hangs his hat as a worker on three periods - 97/98 period where he had some good matches and looked good in spurts, the late 99-01 period where I think he was overrated but he definitely had his hottest matches, and smatterings of time in 05 and 08 where I thought he had solid enough performances. I've already run down his peak years v. the peak years of others at the DVDVR, but my point is that he doesn't have this huge body of work DESPITE the fact that he has had tons more opportunities.

Dylan is really turning into the Paul F. Tompkins of wrestling podcasts. Fun show. Tomk reviewed this match in one of my favorite things he ever wrote. http://segundacaida.blogspot.com/2010/10/c...-war-games.html If you've got a gimmick work it. Also I pretty much love everything tomk writes even when I disagree with it. But that is definitely in the upper tier of things he's written.

As usual you make points with the best of them.....

I agree with this. For now. But as the net changes media more and more I think tv ratings will end meaning less and less.

That's the thing, though. Why not have squash matches? Why do David Otunga and Heath Slater need control segments when they're up against Sheamus? And for that matter, why does everybody need to have a match every week? I don't see the point of paying to see Randy Orton vs. Cody Rhodes on PPV when they've already had three matches on Smackdown beforehand and will have three more afterward. Blame TV ratings becoming the be all end all metric during the MNW era. As that metric becomes less important (and I believe it will) perhaps things will revert to old form but I have my doubts.

I don't blame anyone for coming to that conclusion but I think some of the complaints are exaggerated and I also think a lot of that is the result of monopoly/wrestling being live every week and shooting multiple shows with no-squash matches. Having said that if I were to have given up watching wrestling when angles/promos started to die for me I would have quit watching after the U.S. v. Canada angle in 97.

Jason Mann had me on his show to talk about WarGames 94. Pretty fun show and a cool concept for a podcast. http://www.fairtoflair.com/post/1878862547...e-of-mediocrity

2002-03 Raw was unquestionably worse than what is on the air now. I honestly can't conceive of any sensible argument to the contrary. Of course I generally enjoy the WWE despite my criticisms, but even if I loathed it I can't imagine thinking 02-03 Raw was better than current Raw

The top ten moments of HHH's career will top the top ten of a lot of people. When you play politics and fuck the bosses daughter that's how things work out. There are people I rate above HHH, who I dont' expect others to agree with. Barbarian is one of them, but if you asked me to point to qualities I think that make a wrestler good he has more of them than HHH

I've never had a breaking point. The closest was 01 when I moved out of a house with cable, lived with acid/coke dealers in a shithole punkhouse, and spent all my time with the woman who would eventually become my wife and my shitty band. This coincided with my best friend dropping out of wrestling altogether when ECW and WCW died with in a couple of months of each other. But by Sept of that year we had cable again and I was watching every week like nothing had changed. My first memories in life are associated with wrestling and I have multiple family members who are fans to varying degrees. I doubt I'll ever quit altogether and it would take something epic for me to quit watching the modern product as for all my criticism of the WWE I honestly do believe they have more good matches week in and out than any promotion I can recall.

Well tonight they had replays where the full audio was playing as Kelly and Nigel were trying to recap which resulted in cross talk and confusion. Later they went to a video package to set up the Steen match and Steen's music hit and they missed most of his entrance for a video package that was inaudible as a result of Steen's music playing in the arena.

The Attitude Era was filled with segments like the Natalia Fart joke segments. I often wonder how I ever watched that shit

http://www.talkshoe.com/talkshoe/web/talkC...2658&cmd=tc Episode 16 is up. We fight through some technical difficulties and are joined by Thomas Holzerman of the The Wrestling Blog/Fair To Flair Quarterly/Cageside Seats. We run our mouths about indy wrestling and the effect the internet has had on wrestling and wrestling fans. Tom talks up Chikara, Dave talks about upcoming shows, I complain about tv ratings and a certain Dragon Gate USA booker. If you can wade through the occasional cross talk and Dave's phone being mean a fun time was had by all.

Eh I'll drag my thoughts over from DVDVR and if we need a thread on the show it'll get split. Well I actually watched the ippv. Haas/Benjamin v. Titus/King was pretty bad. They eventually went with a story of working over Titus hurt leg but it took a while to get there and they seemed to be on different pages for a lot of this. Michael Bennett v. Homicide was ok I guess. I like Bennett's act a lot, but then he does stuff like refer to NYC as a "poophole" and I really don't understand how he can be taken seriously. The fact that all the heat in the match was based around the champion of another company was bizarre too. The finish was kind of amusing though and Homicide's awful post-match promo was worth a laugh. Segment with Kingston and Steen was fine and I actually have some hopes for a Chikara v. ROH feud even though I don't care much for either fed. Still The Colony coming out for the save as Steen attempted to piss on the Chikara title really didn't work. It just doesn't fit contextually to have a bunch of guys in ants suits who are now super serious about defending the honor of the wrestling business. Red/TJP v. Elgin/Strong had some flubbed moments and some really bad looking strikes, but it also had it's fair share of cool shit and over all was a fun match. Elgin is a great base and TJP and Red are all about using dudes like him as a pummel horse. Finish looked really sick too. Lethal v. Ciampa was actually the most sensible match from a structural perspective of anything on the show. I thought it was obvious they were going to a draw, but they made fairly good use of the time and it really didn't feel like over kill at any point which is really rare in an ROH match. Match was well segmented and the big apron bump as a re-set actually made sense. I also thought the finishing flurry was a cool way to go to a draw. Overall I thought it was a pretty good match. Briscoes v. Young Bucks was shorter than I expected but fun while it lasted. Briscoes are really good at kicking peoples asses. I didn't think the FIP work here was particularly strong, but it was an attempt which was honestly more than I expected and some of the Young Bucks douchey offense was really entertaining. Again the finishing sequence looked good. Kevin Steen v. Jimmy Jacobs was the best match of the night. I am up and down on Steen, but he's clearly over and is the guy who the company should be building around. Jacobs reverting to "Age of the Fall" era stuff was kind of campy in a way, but worked in the context of the match. Lots of lunatic bumps and I thought the pacing was fairly well done. There were instances where both guys could of and should have sold something longer, but it was a good enough out of control brawl. Visual of the spike in the turnbuckle was cool and Jacobs regretted his reversion after stabbing Steen was an interesting twist. Yet again the finish looked brutal. Main event was horrendous. I actually had some hopes for it after the first few minutes which were decent enough and considerably better than I had feared. But man alive it got to the point where every fucking spot in the match was a mirror spot or some other such bullshit. The spot with O'reilly "accidentally" DDTing Richards while Cole hit his neckbreaker is one of the worst spots I've ever seen. Match just went on and on and on. I am not a Richards fan, but I think O'Reilly is about ten times worse. The only thing I didn't mind was Cole winning clean, but winning on a crossbody less than a minute after getting taken out by a tornado DDT through a table? WTF? Over all it was a better show than I expected and not a total waste of time. Still the highlight package they showed during intermission really made you remember a time when ROH was a promotion where you were guaranteed at least one great match a show and this was a show with a few solid matches, but nothing that even approached that level. Also the announcing is terrible

Actually WCW trying to redo the Loose Cannon/Pillman angle with Lenny Lane, including Lane appearing on WOL claiming he was released was really fucking bizarre in hindsight.

I think the general quality of promos plummeted during that period. In ring? Honestly I'd have to think about it, but there are plenty of guys from the last fifteen years that I have liked a lot. Japan certainly has gotten massively worse since then.

Chaz randomly appearing for a show or two in ECW. Billy Black and Joel Deaten being around for one or two SMW tapings but being featured on the promotional video Cornette would send out to tv stations to try and get more markets. Jimmy Del Ray showing up as Jimmy Graffiti a WCW Nitro era jobber extraordinare

You literally could just say "everything that ever happened in IWCCW"