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Everything posted by Dylan Waco
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Fair for Flair: a mini-series
Dylan Waco replied to JerryvonKramer's topic in GWE Podcasts and Publications
I listened to the show with Charles and really enjoyed it. Obviously I have some disagreements and comments to make so here goes. One thing that actually wasn't addressed that I do want to note is that I think the laziest criticism of Flair is actually the implication that formula is bad. I think arguing that Flair doesn't have a formula is just silly. He clearly does. No he doesn't apply it in every match, but he absolutely does have a sort of match where he plugs in guys and just goes. That said I don't think that is a negative in of itself. In fact I think formula is good in wrestling. Formula and go to spots are necessary for a match to have truly great psychology. The formula is there to be deviated, altered from, or built upon. It is the template that you add on to. Without it wrestling would be disorganized chaos and/or a perverse form of gymnastics. No thanks. There are certainly things about an over-reliance on formula, stand pat spots, that can be criticized, but "Flair Formula" strikes me as a dogshit criticism, and maybe the worst example of people not being fair to Flair. On the particulars of the show and going in no particular order.... At one point Loss noted that only Shawn Michaels has been dissected as much as Flair. I'm not positive that is true, but I don't think it's far off. What interests me here is the way this criticism of Michaels was acknowledged but not really discussed. I get why (It's a Flair podcast), but my point is that everything said about Flair by Parv and Loss, would be said by Michaels fans about Shawn. It happens that Loss and Parv agree with at least some of the criticisms of Shawn so...is Shawn treated unfairly by being analyzed so deeply, or is it okay in that case because you agree with the criticisms? There are a lot of parallels between Shawn and Flair, and I actually think they are worth discussing, in part because I think it may shed some extra light on why both guys have their reps (both good and bad). One thing that I thought was interesting was the argument that seemed to run throughout, particularly from Loss, that it might be possible others were better than Flair (Hansen, Jumbo, Casas, et.) but people either hadn't done the legwork and/or he personally had seen enough footage to ascertain whether or not this was true. This is consistent with Loss general view about the project (which I strongly disagree with, and don't want to rehash, other than to note as an aside that I think it is VASTLY harder to rank matches than wrestlers), but what really jumps out to me when thinking about it is the fact that the argument almost felt like "Flair is the best because we have seen the most from him." I'm not arguing for or against that, it just stood out because it seemed an odd sentiment to express when one of the general arguments I've seen made before is that Flair is unfairly criticized because we've seen the most from him. Parv brought up the issue of objectivity within the GWE project a few times, once at the end, and another time when talking about particular things that some people have dismissed as being irrelevant (execution in the case of Tenryu). His summation seemed to be that the project needs to be based on something other than gut feeling, and while I agree, I also think his sports analogy was way off for one obvious reason - there is no agreed upon criteria in wrestling. Even more than that, the categories of work for lack of a better term aren't even well defined and full fleshed out, and probably never will be. Even on this podcast Loss made a great point about Flair being excellent at "evasion" spots. I agree with him, but if you try to create buckets of criteria to count up points in what the hell bucket does that go in? Timing? Maybe, but it feels more special and unique than just that. Selling? Well it does involve being expressive but...no. Bumping? It's not really a bump to "fall" out of the way. The point is that it doesn't neatly fit anywhere. The bigger point is that I might think selling is the absolute most important trait in wrestling (I do), but not all selling is created equal, different people need to sell different ways, and what even constitutes selling is something that is highly debatable. I think you can try to be objective via analysis, recognizing there are exceptions to certain rules, and that in some cases there are no rules, without fixing yourself into trying to rank wrestlers via a match equation, or system of quasi-scientific categorization. I'm a humanities guy, I have no interest in that at all. One final thought on the discussion surrounding Flair pairing down his offense and not getting credit for it. To be honest I thought that was one of the weaker aspects of the show. I understood the argument, but it came across as an attempt at a "gotcha!" moment that badly missed the point. I personally don't care all that much that Flair dropped most of his offense late in his career, even though I do think it hurt his matches to a degree. What bothers me far more is what he didn't drop - his stock "defensive" spots that he was no longer capable of executing well. This is why the pairing down argument fails to me. The reality is Flair dropped stuff that would have helped his matches, and were easier to execute, in lieu of keeping stock defensive spots that he physically couldn't do well anymore. Some of that may have been beyond his control, but this wasn't a guy adapting to his limitations and sticking with what he did well. This was a guy stuck in his old ways, who couldn't do to do things poorly because that's what he had always done. -
Okada may be a "better in the chase" guy.
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I knew Parv would mention Yatsu, but he really is an excellent offensive wrestler. To me it's not so much that he has bombs, so much as it is that he has signature offense that he executes very well, times very well, and stands out in the context of 80's All Japan. It is distinct, properly placed in his matches, and done well, which is really the perfect combination when I think of great offensive wrestlers. Santo probably has the best go to formula of any truly great offensive worker so that should be noted. In my mind the best offensive wrestlers in the world right now are Sheamus and Cesaro because they combine working snug, with nice variety, but that variety is confined within the logic of who they are. Both guys change their approach somewhat depending on if they are a face or a heel which I also really like. I agree with a ton of the other people named here, but I think my favorite offensive wrestler is Scorpio. The thing about Scorpio was that he was a brilliant and yes innovative (eh) flyer, but his spots were both smooth and violent as hell looking, which is incredible rare. On top of that he was a good mat worker, had an awesome variety of strikes, and would bust out other high impact spots that were surprising and dynamic without being absurd or out of place. The biggest knock on him was that on occasion he could be sloppy, but that sloppiness had a tendency to come out when paired off against other extremely sloppy guys (Sabu for example). I would also add that while I'm not really sure I'd call him an all time great offensive wrestler, Arn Anderson probably is my all time favorite guy when it comes to executing his two quick strike finishes. I think he probably has the best DDT ever, and has the best spinebuster ever by far.
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What wrestlers I think are the best is far more important than voting in a U.S. Presidential election.
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Yes
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It makes great sense if you think it should be hard to get in
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I've pretty much decided that if Colon and Caras fall off the ballot I'm reverting into being the most obnoxious "no" voter of all time.
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Villano 3 won't be on the ballot next year to vote for I'm afraid
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Fair for Flair: a mini-series
Dylan Waco replied to JerryvonKramer's topic in GWE Podcasts and Publications
It doesn't (necessarily)., -
Fair for Flair: a mini-series
Dylan Waco replied to JerryvonKramer's topic in GWE Podcasts and Publications
I listened to part one and mostly enjoyed it even though there were objections I had throughout, and one much bigger principled objection that I won't go into right now. I will say that the strategy discussion sounded like a couple of PWI writers getting together and trying to organize their thoughts on how to approach an article dealing with Flair's talents in a kayfabe context. I really enjoyed it, even if I left entirely convinced that the bulk of the argument was about what the hosts read into Flair's performances, and not Flair's intent. -
AWE has released Matthews v. Lee on the their gumshoe streaming site thing they use. I will have a full review of the show up as soon as I can, but I watched Empire Wrestling's Crazy From The Heat DVD tonight, and it is well worth the 12 bucks. Eclectic card, with great commentary from Dan Wilson, solid production, some cool vignettes and angles, and really good matches, including a great brawl between Rush and Kyle Matthews. The DVD is available to purchase through their website store. While you are there, if you are thinking about buying either of the other DVDs I would strongly suggest the Long Cold Winter 2014 show, which doesn't have a bad match on it, and features two great matches with Andrew Alexander v. Shaun Tempers in a Dog Collar Match, and Ace Rockwell v. Matt Fortune I Quit Match that might be my favorite Empire match ever. http://www.empirewrestling.net/
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Gordy won't make my list. I thought Hayes was better than him in Texas and Hayes is a bubble guy who I want to include but might not have room for. Gordy was good in Japan, but he lacks a singular performance I can point to where he blew me away. A fine wrestler, but he's not an all timer.
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On Lagarde, I don't know if he's a better candidate than Ramirez or the Brazos, but I do know he was close to getting in last year, and I do believe he should be in. Lucha is a category that is clogged with solid candidates. When I see ballots coming back where one lucha candidate is voted for and six spots are left empty I just have to shake my head. There are eight people in that region I could have voted for (the five I did plus, Ramirez, the Brazos and LA Park), and I would listen to arguments for every single person in the category other than Vampiro. A ballot that comes back with two lucha votes for Dr. Wagner Jr and Perro Jr. and no one else is mind blowing and frustrating, and I'm not even dismissive of either of those guys (though I think the pattern with people voting for Perro is problematic for obvious reasons). My mindset with Lagarde is that he is a hall of famer, and he is close, and maybe he can get in this year and unclutter the section if I vote for him. Less sure about the prospects of that for Ramirez this year.
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Sting's longevity probably is one of his biggest strengths with those who support him, which is funny since it is wildly overstated.
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I FOLLOWED THE HISTORICAL PERFORMERS ERA CANDIDATES Enrique Torres I FOLLOWED THE MODERN PERFORMERS IN U.S/CANADA CANDIDATES Junkyard Dog Ivan Koloff I FOLLOWED WRESTLING IN JAPAN CANDIDATES Akira Taue I FOLLOWED WRESTLING IN MEXICO CANDIDATES Cien Caras Karloff Lagarde Blue Panther El Signo & El Texano & Negro Navarro Villano III I FOLLOWED WRESTLING IN EUROPE CANDIDATES I abstain I FOLLOWED WRESTLING IN AUSTRALIA/PACIFIC ISLANDS/CARIBBEAN/AFRICA CANDIDATES Carlos Colon NON-WRESTLERS Jimmy Hart Jerry Jarrett Gene Okerluind Don Owen Stanley Weston
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He will never put Invader 1 on the ballot. I don't agree with it, but I get why he won't. That said Miguel Perez Sr., Hugo Savinovich, Chicky Starr, The Sheepherders, TNT/Savio Vega and maybe even Ray Gonzalez at least deserve a shot at the ballot. I don't know enough about the role Victor Jovica played in promoting, but he's at least worth thinking about too. I'd vote for Hugo, and would have to be talked out of voting for Chicky.
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I liked Gino a lot in Southwest and WCCW where he was pretty polarizing. I have heard great things about him on this footage. I'm planning to sub when my semester ends and he will be the first guy I look at
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For those who have heard me ranting about the greatness of Jimmy Rave, his versatility and range, and how he works in a live setting, this match that Atlanta Wrestling Entertainment uploaded is a great example of why I think he's been so incredible: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lLNA09c08-Q Match is v. Chris Crunk, a Chattanooga indie guy who has a bad rep with most of the established veterans in the area. Rave is basically Ric Flair in Techwood Drive here, working as the cocky heel ace, who really is that good, and has a cheering section of his own to show for it. He outclasses Crunk, upstages the kid with his own spots, roughhouses him with strikes, et. But he also shows ass when need be, is vulnerable enough to make Crunk look like a true up and comer, bumps and reacts well for the kids stuff, et. That said you never believe Jimmy is really in danger of losing. Crunk's offense registers enough to annoy and inconvenience, but never enough to make you believe that he's on or above Rave's level. The finishing flurry is a great way to kill off a kid who has gotten to big for his britches. Seriously a brilliant Rave match in my view. Imagine Flair at his smartest, having the best possible match v. Sam Houston, and it probably looks something like this. Go out of your way to watch it. Also everyone subscribe to that channel, because AWE is sitting on a bunch of good stuff, including Rave match v. Chip Day, Ced Alexander, and JT Dunn, a Kyle Matthews v. Trevor Lee match I got a private link to that is really good, Chip Day matches v. Shane Strickland and Andrew Everett that are supposed to be really good, and other stuff. They want to get a 1000 subscribers before they start releasing the stuff so let's get it done.
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Observer HOF prediction/ballot question thread
Dylan Waco replied to dkookypunk43's topic in Megathread archive
Hope this leads to a discussion on the influence of Right Said Fred -
Peachstate Wrestling Alliance operates in Soup's backyard and they have had some really strong shows this year. I was able to get my hands on some of their DVDs and watched Rick Michaels, Iceberg, Stupid, Simon Sermon, Ace Haven v Sal Rinauro, Dusty Mac, Nigel Sherrod, The Dragon, Tommy Too Much in a WarGames match with elimination rules tonight and was blown away. I had the benefit of seeing in after seeing the street fight from the previous month, but I honestly thought it was a legit MOTYC on first watch as it had atmosphere, authentic violence, good psychology, big spots, solid strikes, great escalation, and some great individual performances. These PWA shows do not have the best DVD quality in terms of production, but I have enjoyed all of them to one degree or another, and they look to have some big shows coming up including their next show which has Cedric Alexander v. Kyle Matthews in the main event, with Jimmy Rave, Mike Posey, Sal Rinauro and others who are lesser known but I really like working on the undercard. Looks like they are loading up their 11/7 show too.
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PM me a link
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Best matches? Card rundown?
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I enjoy old man Liger, but he's very much a guy who has a greatest hits schtick, and will turn it on a for a great match or two once a year. Hardly a major negative for a guy his age.
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The biggest advantage Savage has to me is that he was an excellent face and an excellent heel. That said, I honestly think Savage's best matches are far more dependent on bells and whistles and atmosphere than Valentine's are. Part of that is that Savage is the ultimate character, and it makes sense that his matches would be more show biz-y. But there is a part of me that wishes we had more high end, stripped down, Savage matches. The default answer to this is certainly Savage, but I honestly think Valentine has more performances I would consider brilliant, and I think he's a better brawler than Savage which is arguably Savages strongest trait. If someone held a gun to my head right now I would take Valentine, but I don't really feel comfortable saying it.