Dylan Waco

There are 25 people who would make your top 100 who haven't been nominated?!?

My thoughts on mini's are basically that I should probably watch a bit more of the top couple, but on the surface none of them feel like an obvious pick. I would be willing to watch your top mini picks though Loss, and would start tonight if you send me links. I'm not at all opposed to Sagrada, and could see him placing for me. I love Demus 3:16 as a guy who always delivers when given a chance (loved his hair v. hair against Shockercito from last year for example), but the chances are very limited. This sounds awful for multiple reasons but I almost think a mini would have to feel bigger than the division for me to seriously consider them.

Total spark plug of a wrestler, I thought he was really fun to watch in the high energy tags and multi-man's NJPW ran in the early part of the 80's. He's a guy I would be willing to explore more of, and I think he's worth thinking about, but I think he may lack the singular performances I ideally want in a top 100 candidate.

I actually loved Sakaguchi on the NJPW set, to the point where I was talking him up as a potential "lost worker" of sorts at the time. The team that put together the footage insisted he was a guy who benefited dramatically from the selection process which I don't doubt, but I still prefer him to someone like Inoki. That said, I also trust their judgment enough where I would need to be pointed to 10-12 strong performances that didn't appear on that project for me to even consider him.

One of my all time favorite wrestling sleazeballs, and possibly my favorite Sportatorium wrestler of all time. Seriously, take one look at Gary Young and tell me you can't imagine him sleeping in Embry's office to hide from loan sharks who are after him for money he's sunk into a crippling drug addiction. In a sense Young sort of embodies the vibe of that building to me more than any wrestler with any venue ever. He was also a hell of a bumper, an outstanding heel, and a guy with strong psychology. The problem is that he doesn't have many years at peak sleaziness that are on tape (that I recall anyhow), he doesn't have any individual performances that immediately stand out, and his lack of dynamism - while it makes complete sense given the act he was portraying - leaves him feeling remarkably obscure even by the standards of a Southern indie wrestling fetishist. I think Young is a perfectly reasonable 100, as a sort of representative/stand in for a lot of guys like him. But if you go that route you are voting more on the character and archetype, than on a huge slate of high end accomplishments.

I really haven't even thought about a rough draft at this point, but here are the luchadors I am positive I will rate in no particular order: Negro Casas, El Hijo Del Santo, Blue Panther, Virus, Satanico, El Dandy, Black Terry Strong possibility: LA Park, La Fiera, Sangre Chicana, Emilo Charles Jr. Need to watch more ASAP to feel fully comfortable with, but feel like they should be instinctively: Fuerza Guerrera, Pirata Morgan, Perro Aguayo Sr., Villano III People I want to include but I'm no sure I can really justify it: Villano IV, Javier Cruz, Mocho Cota I'm open to people like MS-1, Lizmark, et., but I'd be lying if I said they were likely picks at this point. Atlantis I won't include. I don't hate him, in fact I think he's very good, but he has no attribute that jumps out at me and screams "this is why he belongs in your top 100." In the end I will likely have 10-15 on my list.

Like Tiger Mask and Bruiser Brody, I would vote for HHH for the WON HOF despite his flaws. That said, I don't think I would have voted for HHH at the time he got in. HHH's case is actually the strongest possible version of the Sting case, in the sense that HHH has been around forever, and while the most severe collapse was when he became the top guy, he has headlined too many major shows, and been too central to the television programming and product to seriously argue against. If Sting had as many successes, the actual longevity of HHH, and the political power, I'd be an advocate for him despite his flaws as well (There is also the tomk argument that in a carny business, the best of the modern carnies has to get in which is half joke/half serious, but not something I think you can immediately dismiss). As brain mentioned a lot of these names have already been run through in this thread. I am far too lazy to go back and look at who was covered, but if someone wants to do it, I will respond with comparisons to anyone who hasn't already been done.

Define ring general

The guy who called you a creep is a 16 year old kid

Actually if the terminology of Greatest Wrestler Ever is part of the hang up, then no, I don't think seeing available footage matters much if at all. I participated in Steve Yohe's project over at Classics a couple years back where a bunch of people sent in lists individually ranking the top wrestlers of all time factoring in star power, influence, work, drawing power, et. I can't remember what Yohe called the project, but that to my mind was a more holistic "Greatest Wrestler Ever" list. And if I'm being honest for that sort of endeavor if someone had Hogan as low as 18 I would consider their list either a joke, or biased to beyond belief. My issues with bringing in promos, angles, et is that there is in fact some metric to determine the success of those things - drawing houses. Yes it's true that there are occasionally mid-card angles that get over huge and contribute to hotter programs up top. It's not an exact science. That said, someone like Trish Stratus is actually HURT for me if I factor in those things, because I see little to no evidence that she positively effected the bottom line. I mean if someone wants to say they were artistically successful fine, but to me the great thing about looking at bell to bell is that I don't have to worry about the overlapping world's of business and art. I can rate a great performance in 95 SMW and not worry about the fact that it "objectively" bombed because it didn't objectively bomb like some of good promos, episodes of tv, and angles that year did. That said people are going to carry their own biases and criteria. In an ideal world I would prefer it if people were voting strictly off bell-to-bell, but even then our critierias would still be radically different. Differing criteria isn't a reason for anyone to leave at this stage.

I'll end up including at least one, maybe two, Southern indie guys. Beyond that it's too early for me to answer this in detail.

A lot of the names mentioned in this thread I would agree with including Gordy, Williams, and Tully (I just can't see a way any of these guys make it in at this point, though Tully has the best shot). I still have no clue what to do with Jumbo. Objectively he's a great wrestler, and I can't think of a reasonable argument for leaving him off my list. That said, I can't see rating him highly because I literally have no interest in ever seeing him again, and associate him with the complete absence of joy in wrestling. So basically I feel bad leaving him off and I feel dirty including him (or at least putting him high on my ballot). So I'm lost there. I swear this isn't a troll of Will, but I doubt I'll vote for Dick Murdoch at this point. I enjoy him most of the time, but I tend to like his most highly touted matches less than his biggest fans, and I don't see him with a ton of volume of what I would call high end stuff. He could make that up with intangibles, but while I agree with Will and others that he does the little things very well, I don't see him as a uniquely outstanding performer in that regard. Dibiase won't be on my list either, but I don't think that's terribly controversial on this board.

As with any list the criteria is key. I have yet to read the article that explains the criteria, so I don't want to criticize too intensely. That said I struggle to see any criteria where Owens is someone I could see that high. Even granting for the difference in opinion I may have with some about the quality of certain matches, I don't really see anyone rating him THAT high as an in ring talent, he didn't burst off the page as an undeniable, top tier star, nor is he clear draw. At times he was among the most over people in the WWE, and maybe still is, but he's not New Day over or even close.

Send 12 dollars to the fine folks at EmpireWrestling.net and they send you the DVD

Lou Thez/Ric Flair Award 1) Sasha Banks 2) John Cena 3) AJ Styles Most Outstanding Wrestler 1) Jimmy Rave 2) AJ Styles 3) Cesaro Best Box Office 1) John Cena 2) Grado 3) AJ Styles Feud of the Year 1) Dragon Lee v. Kamaitachi 2) Sasha Banks v. Bayley 3) Rockstar Spud v. Ethan Carter III Tag Team of the Year 1) New Day 2) Cesaro/Tyson Kidd 3) Twin Towers (Sato/Ishikawa) Most Improved 1) Bayley 2) Moose 3) Jason Collins Best on Interviews 1) Nick Gage 2) Jay Briscoe 3) Xavier Woods Most Charismatic 1) Shinsuke Nakamura 2) Sasha Banks 3) Bayley Best Technical Wrestler 1) Timothy Thatcher 2) Virus 3) Jimmy Rave Bruiser Brody Memorial Award 1) Drew Galloway 2) Kongo Kong 3) Damien Wayne Best Flying Wrestler 1) Mike Bailey 2) Dragon Lee 3) Aerostar Most Overrated 1) HHH 2) Kane 3) Seth Rollins Most Underrated 1) Luke Harper 2) Cesaro 3) Cedric Alexander Promotion of the Year 1) ICW 2) DDT 3) ROH Best Weekly TV Show 1) NXT 2) Lucha Underground 3) ROH Pro Wrestling Match of the Year 1) Bayley v. Sasha Banks - Iron Woman Match 10/7/15 2) Bayley v. Sasha Banks - 8/22/15 3) Rush v. Kyle Matthews - Empire Wrestling Entertainment 7/11/15 Rookie of the Year 1) Jay White 2) Kazusada Higuchi 3) Chad Gable Best Non Wrestler 1) Jeff G. Bailey 2) Xavier Woods 3) Dario Cueto Best TV Announcer 1) Dan Wilson 2) Al Getz 3) Corey Graves Worst TV Announcer 1) Matt Striker 2) Jerry Lawler 3) Josh Matthews Best Major Show 1) ROH - Winter Warriors 2/21 (Atlanta) 2) Scenic City Invitational Night 2 3) New Japan Pro Wrestling - Invasion Attack Worst Major Show Triplemania Best Wrestling Manuever Jimmy Rave's apron STO Most Disgusting Promotional Tactic Paige mentioning Reid Flair Worst TV Show WWE RAW Worst Match Shuji Ishikawa v. Daisuke Sekimoto - Big Japan Wrestling 3/13/15 Worst Fued PCB vs BAD vs Bella Worst Promotion AAA Best Booker Ryan Ward Promoter of the Year Takashi Okamura Best Gimmick New Day Worst Gimmick HHH savior of workrate wrestling (credit tomk with this line) Best Book abstain Best DVD Scenic City Invitational

Watched a lot of the AJ 2005 stuff and think it holds up brilliantly. I'd rate it over a lot of 80s and 90s stuff that gets widely praised. Maybe I'm 20 at heart.

I'll write more on this later, but my opinion of Casas as an all timer was formed in large part because I was watching him work week-to-week in a lazily booked CMLL.

Jake is maybe the best I've ever seen at delivering and getting over an angle regardless of where it was slotted on the card. In that sense he was a genius. He was also very good at getting the most out of little moments and touches in matches. That said, I really struggle to see an argument for him as a top 100 wrestler if we are talking strictly in ring. He doesn't have a high number of good matches, he doesn't have a large number of great matches, he wasn't a particularly great squash worker, he has no all time classics. Throughout this process I've been one of the more critical voices arguing against output as the sole metric to judge talent on, but when you have so little output relative to others your input had better be absolute tip top tier. Jake's isn't.

I actually think it's weird that people would argue in favor of Jake, and against Smothers, even if the arguments against him are more of "I don't quite see it" slant than outright rejection. I will say that I don't know that Smothers has any "must see" work in the sense that I don't think he has an all timer in his back pocket. That said he has a healthy dose of great matches, including him and Guido carrying The Eliminators to a legit great match, the Charlotte brawl with him and Anthony v. The Gangstas from Smoky Mountain, the Candido series from SMW, the great chain match v. DWB, et. I also tend to favor consistency and working to setting more than most. I honestly think he's a genius at tailoring his approach to the crowd he is in front of, and that was especially evident during his early 00's indie run when he was working "workrate" guys one night, and old vets the next. Even as late as a couple of years ago I saw him have a legitimately very good match in NWA SAW against a young guy, where Tracy gave him nearly the entire match. I don't know that I'd call him "transcendent," but I do think he is a guy that is synonymous with wrestling. And for a project like this that feels at least as important to me as anything else.

Two interesting questions to consider with Angle - does it matter that his gimmick during arguably his strongest period as a worker was kinda ass backwards, and does the fact that he didn't live up to the expectations of many/or fell short of what was hoped for him hurt him? Another way of asking these questions - Mikey Whipwreck is a guy who had a gimmick that fit him (reluctant backyarder, who had a sloppy sort of athleticism and disregard for his body that helped him overcome his overwhelmingly obvious weaknesses) and also drastically exceeded expectations of pretty much anyone who saw him during his early days. I'm not saying Whipwreck will make my list, but I'm much more inclined to rate him than Angle, and I think part of it is that he totally embodied that logical character, and he absolutely was better than he had any right to be.

Proud to be a part of this again this year, as I got to write about Jimmy Rave and Southern Indies. Also contributing are thecubsfan, Joe Gagne, Alan4L, Ryan Clingman, Bill Thompson and tons I'm forgetting (posting this from a moving vehicle). Check it out! http://www.cubedcirclewrestling.com/blog/newsletter/ccn-yearbook-2015/

I think it's fair to listen to the arguments shoe and pol made about the limb selling quirk being a consistent staple of NJPW at this point, and I also agree with W2TBD's point that it wasn't supposed to be a match about leg selling. That said, what that tells me more than anything is that the limb work shouldn't be done. Again, my issue with Okada was not the selling of the limb per se, but the fact that by FAR his most effective offensive weapon in the match was the dropkick. He has a great one, and every time he hit one in the match it looked good, but it just doesn't fit for me at all and never will. I accept that it's not going anywhere, but as a fan or critic I don't think my job is to say "well I think this is off point, but it's part of the house style so whatever." I can acknowledge the reality of that house style, note that the match was effective/worked for the crowd (as I did very specifically in fact), but also conclude that not all styles are created equal. In an unrelated note, this is the second year in a row where I preferred New Years Dash to Wrestle Kingdom. Cross posting my thoughts from the VOW board. Legit thought New Years Dash was better than the Dome show, but that admittedly speaks to my biases as a fan. I'm always going to favor a "fun" show with fresh matches, novelty, and a unique main event, to a show that felt by the numbers in its approach even if it was admittedly good. WK10 felt like the best possible show for hardcore NJPW fans both in Japan, Europe and the States, where New Years Dash was more of a "something for everyone," grab bag type of show that I think even the most anti-NJPW person would probably enjoy on some level. One arguably bad thing about the show is that it made me want to see a lot of matches that aren't terribly likely to happen. I would love to see Cheeseburger v. Fujiwara, Finlay/White regularly brought into contention in the Jr. tag division, Tonga and Haku (who is seriously really good) challenge Honma and Makabe for the tag belts or The Briscoes for that matter, but I think there is virtually zero chance of any of those things happening this year. It's also worth noting that even me, one of the bigger "ugh Omega" guys around, thought the angle with him turning on AJ, uniting the Bullet Club around him, and declaring himself a non-junior after beating Nakamura clean was excellent. I actually think the smartest thing to do if Nak doesn't end up staying, would be for Omega to beat him clean, setting up the challenge from Ibushi when he gets back. It's not something I care to see, but it's a fresh match in NJPW, and could draw well if built correctly.

Show was good, but didn't feel like a major show. Hard to explain, but at no point did it come across like I was watching the biggest wrestling show of the year for the second biggest promotion on the planet. I thought every match was at least decent, though the overbooking and run-in's on the under card were way over done, and there were some booking decisions I hated (Jado and Goto winning especially). My favorite match on the show was Nakamura v. Styles, though the back work not going anywhere bothered me. Still felt like a low level MOTYC on first watch, with lots of fun spots, strong sell jobs, and clever moments/transitions from both. I enjoyed Ishii v. Shibata for what it was, though they walked right up to the edge of absurdity two or three times. Liked the tag title match a whole lot. I actually liked Kushida v. Omega more than I thought I would too, though Omega is annoying even when he isn't shitty. Main event was what it was. I'm less bothered by the leg work being blown off (I actually think Okada at least kind of sold it a bunch down the stretch actually), then I am by the fact that by far his most effective and consistent weapon in the match was a dropkick. Some of the spots with dropkicks were excellent looking in isolation, but I just can't get invested when a match unfolds that way. In many ways it felt like an overblown Mania main event, with tons of shit shoehorned in (including each guy doing the others finish), some of which worked very well, and some of which didn't work at all. It was the right match for the crowd, and the right guy won, so over all I was fairly indifferent to it. That said it blows my mind that some of the same people who were middling or tempered in their praise for the Bayley v. Sasha matches, seemed to loved this match of all things.

There is a degree to which the bottom of my list is going to get more scrutiny than the top spot(s) because of the fact that it will be hundreds of people scrambling for a handful of spots. I haven't looked too terribly closely at putting together a draft yet, but I'd be willing to guess that I will give reasonable consideration to well over 200 people, and possibly more than 300. I'd say of those at minimum somewhere between 75-85 will be stone cold locks. For that reason I have been very analytical, and in some ways more obsessive, about the bottom of my list than the top of it.

Everyone should watch the latest NWA Smoky Mountain tv with the Kid Kash and Chase Owens match where Kash puts his career up against Ricky Morton's. Really good stuff from beginning to end on the t.v. Probably the most underrated promotion in the U.S. if you are looking at production values, how they draw, ability to create their own stars, et.