Childs

That's from 2002, right?

Why the hell is everyone getting so touchy? Jetlag is an excellent, constructive poster of long standing who referred to Dump as the "most effective crazy sadistic heel ever" in this very thread. There's nothing sinister about suggesting we look at the entire career of a wrestler Grimmas views as a top 25 shoe-in.

I do think there's more room to deepen the case for Hash than there is for Jumbo, who's been picked over to an extraordinary degree on this forum and in other projects. We're still finding consensus on overlooked gems from '90s NJPW (with the '98 Hash-Fujinami as a prime example), and early Zero-One remains undiscovered country for a lot of folks. But I also wonder if we're hitting the point where it's hard to push the discourse forward on a lot of these GWE stalwarts. I mean, I voted for Hash, because at this point in my fandom, he strikes close to the heart of why I still watch this shit. He stirs something in me. But that's not very good fodder for debate.

Ditto. I've never vibed with Casas as an elite worker, while Tamura might be the best ever at a style I love. So it's an easy call for me.

I'm right there with you. Had Hash at 10 in 2016, and he isn't budging. When I need to give a little spark to my wrestling jones, he's the guy I watch. His combination of spectacle (contender for best entrance music and gear of all time) and no-bullshit fire is ageless. There's a moment in every good Hash match when he ups the ante on his opponent and that "oh shit" feeling settles over the building. I was watching that 6/5/98 match against Fujinami recently, and Fujinami lured him into a little trap where he snared Hash's leg for a second. But that just pissed Hash off, and it was like, "Congrats, old man. You caught your grizzly. Now, what're you going to do?" Love that shit.

Yes, to our detriment.

I could see Buddy taking a bit of a tumble in the overall ranking; he had a lot of momentum going into 2016 with people giving fresh looks to the Portland and AWA footage. I hope that's not the case, because he was magnificent. He might be a one of one (I guess Lawler is his chief rival) in terms of keeping territorial TV entertaining week after week.

I've read OJ's Thesz thread and watched the most pimped matches (which are great). But I don't have a feel for how complete a picture we have of Thesz the worker. I'd be interested in hearing from OJ or anyone else on that particular point. If there are big gaps in our ability to assess him, what are they?

This 100%. People remember preening, stooging, cartoon bumping Flair, but he always had a core of steel when truly challenged.

Rey cranked out a vintage performance in that Backlash tag for anyone wondering if he could still go at the highest level. He obviously doesn't do it every week now, but his crispness and timing at age 46 are quite something. I had him in the teens in 2016, and he certainly isn't going any lower than that in 2026.

In 2016, we talked a lot about how Vader brought a different kind of versatility. He didn't adapt hugely as he jumped from one promotion or opponent to another, but you could build immensely entertaining stuff around him in any environment. That's still how I view him. He's a highly rewatchable action movie, and I'd rather spend a random evening with him than with most of those who'll beat him on the list.

OG Dragon Gate fans see Mochizuki as an all-time, all-time great, and I have just never understood that. I've tried watching the pimped matches, and he never pops off the screen as a character or a technician.

As Rah suggested, Jun is hurt by the fact his career has been somewhat incoherent over the last decade. He's never settled in as the great elder statesman in one promotion ( though I guess that's sort of what he is in DDT), but he also doesn't feel like a great marauder in the Tenryu mode. He's probably a non-factor for your average fan of modern New Japan. He gets a lot of credit for his late career on this board, and I don't know whether to feel bad for him, because for all I know, this was the path he wanted. You can't even really say he failed to escape the shadows of Misawa and Kobashi, because at some point, he stopped engaging with his career on those terms. He's looked good in the ring for 29 years, which is a hell of a thing, no matter the context.

Could you expound on this? I think I know what you mean, but I'm not sure and it's interesting. edit: I messed up the quoting there but I was referring to the end of what you posted above, about Shawn's destructive impact on wrestling as a whole.

Haven't gotten to that later stuff yet. What turned for you?

I mean, anytime you whip out the term "debased reprobates," we're on the right track.

I love this guy. He carried himself like a big star and he could go, either technically or as a brawler. As with many of the French catch standouts, it's going to be hard to decide how to rank him based on a relatively small sample (though we have more of him than a lot of others). But he was a blast.

Watching Navarro wrestle against Solar and the Chikara guys in a Delaware banquet hall remains one of my absolute favorite live wrestling experiences. He just came off as such a badass, even in middle age. The mat wizard part, we know, but this was not a man you'd fuck with in any context. I find him difficult to place, because we have limited footage from the first part of career with the Misioneros, and what we have is a mixed bag as I recall. But I'd feel wrong leaving him off.

It was an awesome bit of chaos. The ROH vs. CZW feud hit some high peaks. The Cage of Death blowoff is also worth watching if you've never seen it, though it's much more heavily booked than the six-man and lacking Super Dragon.

Tully vs. Garvin was nearly as fun a match-up as Flair vs. Garvin, because Tully could throw hands when the situation demanded it. Such a talented all-around pro wrestler. I'll probably rank Arn higher because of versatility and consistency, but I prefer Tully at his best to Arn at his best.

So perhaps he should have put the mask back on? Fat Tiger.

Though I agree Misawa's case is carried by his sublime peak, he was good enough often enough during his brokedown phase that I don't hold that against him. I have more trouble with his Tiger Mask period, because it wasn't short, and he really never figured it out. Injuries played a part in it, but for somebody who was understood to have vast potential, he delivered precious few memorable performances. It is a trouble spot when I compare him to the small group of guys who were in his league overall.

5/25/79 vs. Fujinami 6/15/79 Choshu & Seiji Sakaguchi vs. Hiro Matsuda & Masa Saito

Don't sleep on his match with Zbyszko from the 2/10/90 interpromotional show. I would also strongly recommend watching some younger Saito from the late '70s. He was an incredible athlete, high on the list of wrestlers who could snap you in half without taking a hard breath.

Savage represents the greatest conflict between head and heart for me. He was my favorite wrestler when I was 10 years old. I will never forget that the middle-aged woman sitting next to me at my first WWF show legitimately hated him. I will never forget how awesome I thought that was. He holds up in all the ways that won me over then. I also don't think he was a great wrestler for all that many years. Maybe 1984-87 with flashes after that? It's a thin resume for a guy many people see as a top 20 contender.