sek69

I was reading the back issues of the WON from 1992 on their website, and Dave's devoted the better part of the March 1992 issues to discussing the sex scandals plaguing the WWF at that time. These days it seems to be the conventional wisdom that Terry Garvin and Mel Phillips were more likely than not guilty of what they were accused of doing, but that Pat Patterson was thrown under the bus for being openly gay. What I'm wondering is that there were several wrestlers claiming they were told by a "WWF official" that the only way they would get employment and/or a push with the company would be in exchange for sexual favors. A few mentioned Patterson specifically, and he clearly seems to be the only person mentioned in connection with the scandals that would be in a position to determine in a wrestler would get hired or get pushed. It wouldn't seem that anyone's career would suffer if they told Mel Phillips to GFY, so that would leave you to draw the likely conclusion. Dave also mentions several off-the-record stories he's heard where he states he believes the people who told them. The 3/23/92 issue has a letter written by a former wrestler who said he was told flat out the only way he would get hired for WWF job duty would be in exchange for favors from Patterson. Did something happen in the years since to make him change his mind? I seem to recall any mentions of the scandals in recent years showing that Dave is firmly in the "Patterson was fired because the company thought having someone openly gay as a VP during a sex scandal was bad publicity" camp, which seems pretty ham-fisted even by WWF standards. I sometimes get the feeling that some of the sources Dave has gained in the company in recent years have been able to work him about company history, perhaps the old chestnut about people in the business being the easiest to work extends to sheet writers as well?

I've never gotten this. No...it is not good publicity for Dave Meltzer to say, "This guy has an embarrassingly bad grasp of what happened in WCW." There are times where this cliche might apply, but this sure isn't one of them. That quote is such a perfect synopsis of Keith though, he tries to come off as above it all and still ends up being hopelessly wrong.

It's probably confusing to the wrestlers and agents/producers that Vince is constantly telling them to tone things down but if they bring back some old school moves and spots they could get in trouble for reminding people of "rasslin" which is a big no-no.

The biggest difference is that with the TKO the opponent's legs were thrown behind the person doing the move, and in the F5 the legs were thrown in front of the person doing it.

I often wonder why no one has brought back the crossface chickenwing. Backlund got it over in his crazy heel run, and with today's MMA-aware world it seems like an easy choice for someone working a "shooter" gimmick. The camel clutch needs to make a comeback too, Scott Steiner may have killed it good with his version which looked like he was just rubbing his groin into the back of his opponent's head. Maryse actually does a pretty good one, but she uses it more as a transition hold.

The Rock wasn't scripted in the sense guys are today with their entire promos written beforehand. His promos were largely done "old school" style where he was given the key points to get over and left it up to him how to get there. Not to mention some of Rock's best lines were ad-libs usually prompted by something the crowd would be doing or chanting.

I think the belt thing had to be a rib by Alvarez on Vince's "everything old school is bad" mindset. Primo has worn both belts ever since they unified them.

Actually the story is they want him to sign a long term (like 3 year) deal and he wants a shorter one to avoid past situations where he got burned out. WWE wants all their top guys on lock for the long term but I think Jeff realizes that burnout could and probably would lead to his drug issues popping back up. Also funny is how WWE is apparently pissed that despite them always telling the boys that they can take a break whenever they need to, that Jeff just might do that.

I guess the whole book writing thing didn't work out for Scoots after all: The mind boggles thinking about how bad someone has to be a writing that they get SK to ghost write for you.

I wonder how many of Vince and Foley's falling-out episodes involved politics, since Mick's an ardent Democrat.

The problem is that he used the exact same sequence almost every match. It's the kind of thing guys like Hogan or Cena would get roasted for but Bret largely got a pass for. Ironically I'm fairly sure it was our pal Scooter who coined the phrase "five moves of doom", and I'm pretty certain he meant it as a goof and not a serious knock on a guy he idolizes.

The five moves were vertical suplex, Russian legsweep, backbreaker, elbowdrop from the second rope, and Sharpshooter.

That's such a stereotypical puro-fan swipe at the poor dumb American rasslin' fans. I think WWE specifically did a good job making sure the fans "got" submission work, especially during that period where it seemed like almost all the top guys were using submission holds as finishers (Taker, Edge, Angle, Benoit, even Eddy was using the "Lasso from El Paso"). Sometimes it's too easy to blame the fans for not getting something when it's more a matter of guys being too lazy to put some effort into not making restholds look too obvious.

Jesse's commentary during Hogan matches always came off like him just shooting the whole time. I guess it was because he was so established as a heel supporter, but it's amazing the things he was allowed to say about Hogan being an egomaniac.

I don't think the heel has to believe what he's doing is the right thing per se, but he has to believe in what he is doing for it to be credible. When people say that wrestler x sucks as a heel, what they're really saying is that wrestler x can't sell them on really believing whatever heel gimmick he's working.

That is true, but Hunter is constantly pushed as one of the all time greats, and it was pretty embarrassing to see fans cheering him getting punted into unconsciousness.

So at the PPV tonight, the heel that beat up the face's wife twice won the title, and the face who lost got the "goodbye" song sung at him by the crowd as he was stretchered out. I know WWE will probably decide the crowd tonight just didn't "get it", but I don't think a face can fail harder than that when the fans are happy to see you get punted TFO by the guy that abused your wife.

A slight digression, but this site is amazing. Thanks for sharing, Bix. A lot of these tropes are things my friends and I have recognized. Ex: "Hollywood Homely" is something we always call the "glasses and ponytail effect", in which a hot chick is told to us to be ugly just because she has glasses and a ponytail. . . They have good comments about rasslin, too. I like the quote from JR about how it seems that they WANT people to use those weapons that always seem to be kept under the ring. Of course we had Stacy Kiebler as Miss Hancock who literally removed her glasses and let down her hair to signal her Change to Hotness. The "Badass Grampa" might be the most pro wrestling of all of those. You don't see old timers in "real sports" go out on the field and perform in a way slightly reminiscent of of their primes while the crowd chants that they still in fact got it.

"I'mma bust that myth, if ya weeeeel"

Considering the way the business was heading (Crockett buying up all the NWA territories and taking control of the world title), I don't think David would have gotten too much more of a run with the belt than Kerry ended up getting.

Hogan chasing Bockwinkel from 1982 through 1983 is a good example of the chase being a big draw, although Hogan would have been a big draw even if he had won the title the first time he challenged for it. Verne had a program in mind here, though, and stuck to it for a full year (between Aprils of 82 and 83). Hogan not getting the title at the end of the chase was more about money than Verne not wanting to give him the belt, as has become known in recent years. One thing people forget about Verne booking is that he had both sides of the coin going on in the AWA: He was the dominant face champ (last title reign was 7+ years), and his successor, Bockwinkel, was a dominant heel champ (5+ years in his first reign). the numbers at the gate had to have been steady enough, and profitable enough, that the various chase scenarios each man went through as champ were working. The Hogan chase ended up blowing up in their faces since they ended up jerking the fans around with the Dusty Finishes having Hulk win the title then reversing it (aside: how is that finish associated with Dusty when Verne was far more guilty of abusing it?).

I just always assumed the "money in the chase" stuff was mainly pushed in places where the heel champ had some control in the booking and didn't want to be without the title for any extended periods of time. What better way to accomplish that than to convince everyone the real money is in having the face chase him around?

I think the big thing about wrestling discussion is a lot of the "old timers" got burned out and left, and the ones that stayed ended up being annoyed by the new generation that combines not knowing anything with a sometimes profound lack of writing/reading comprehension/social skills. I guess it's the gap between people who came of age on usenet and the early days of the web vs people who started on AOL chatrooms and only speak in "leet". There's nothing that can make you punch a baby in frustration more than talking to someone who types like both their hands are broken and aren't aware that anything happened before 2002. Honestly, where is there for good discussion nowadays? WCMB and KM are largely dead, and DVDVR has some intelligent posters who largely get lost in an ocean of fetishists. The only places where you can find intelligent discussion are at smaller under-the-radar places where wrestling is more of a side dish than the main topic like S&W and CKC (where I lost my posting rights for some reason). I went to the official NWA homepage once and saw they had a board there, it seemed okay at first until I realized anyone even loosely affiliated with the company was posting in kayfabe. People were trying to have serious conversations and you had the NWA-Outer Bumfuck promoter running in like he was in some kind of e-fed that no one else was a part of. Personally I think a lot of it just comes down to people who were around in that mythical 98-02 era just not being into the current stuff as well as there not being any new topics to discuss when it comes to the old stuff. I think it kind of mirrors the wrestling audience in general. Back then Raw and Nitro were pulling in a combined 7 million a week, and now a number half that size for next week's Raw would send WWE over the moon. There's always been a ebb and flow of people discussing things online, but I don't think we're seeing new faces as the rate we used to anymore - nor have we for a long time.

I've said it before, I'm sure, but one of the things I was shocked to discover via WWE 24/7 was how awful early 80s WWF tv is. Not so much match quality, but more so how almost every promotion at the time was just killing them in terms of production. WWF tv just looked like a low rent, cheap-ass cable access type show compared to other territories at the time.

If you actually go back and watch a lot of Bret's matches, you see they really weren't all that different. The only one that really broke the routine was the double turn Austin match.