smkelly

Not saying I disagree with you, but for the life of me I cannot recall a singular competitive match the Roadies ever had in America.

That is an awesome tandem move. I could see it being better if the team of Vader and Bigelow had used it. Definite match ending spot anywhere on the planet.

Great responses thus far. I agree wholeheartedly. I have been watching a lot of All Japan from the nineties lately, the stuff that has flown under the radar, like none of the TC matches, or Carny Finals, or tag league finals, it is the stuff that was "filler" for tours or "not the first or second best match from _____ show." I am impressed tremendously of the quality I had never seen, let alone ever hear anything about. I doubt I would be doing that unless the current product of wrestling was completely dead (WWE to an extent and definitely TNA) to me, is too expensive to keep up with (ROH, PWG, Indies), or my favorites have either retired, died, or become laughable (WWE & Puro specifically). I just needed to find a different avenue for the time being and of course All Japan of the nineties had open arms for my viewing pleasure I am curious though, when does too much athleticism (i.e sport) with not enough wrestler (i.e performer) become a bad thing? I ask because of wrestlers like a Dynamite Kid or Davey Richards. Great point. In my more cynical days of reviewing wrestling, blown spots meant immediate star reduction. Not anymore. I watch a Carny match between Vader and Misawa last night - it wasn't the prettiest of matches with connected/miss spot ratio, but it was a fine match nonetheless. Might be my favorite AJ match from 1999. There is another match I can recall off the top of my head - the Super Junior Tag League Finals. There is a huge blown spot. Doesn't detract from its greatness one bit to me now. I'm not a professional movie reviewer. I'm a fan of professional wrestling. Nothing more, nothing less

I had forgotten about that. Vince seemed to have genuine regrets about not helping ECW at their end. It was an interesting watch - I had never seen Vince out of character before.

It was definitely strange how things went down with the ECW title. Awesome defected to WCW as the reigning ECW Champion, is beaten by a WWF wrestler in Tazz, who turns around and jobs it to Tommy Dreamer who then loses it on the same night. Not how I would treat my World Heavyweight Championship.

Yeah, Taz is a good one. I think the financial improvement might offset the win/loss ratio, though. He got injured fairly quickly in the WWF and he looked very small in comparison to the "other heavyweights." I was disappointed that Vince and co. didn't know what to do with Taz because he did have potential to be a superstar. IIRC though, it was pretty much Taz's choice to step away from the ring because of injuries previously sustained.

The Dudley's were awesome heat magnets in ECW. They actively tried to get riots started.

Great answer, man. Oh, and I didn't want to assume that you meant that.

Why? Firstly, that's a lot of name-calling for no good reason. Secondly, you're basically saying that we're not allowed to have our own personal tastes and preferences here. Like I said before, I just personally found that Demolition didn't look nearly as intimidating as those other guys you mentioned. Part of it was their body shape, part of it was the wacky bondage-style leather gear, part of it was the KISS ripoff makeup. But just because those guys are all dressed kinda-sorta similarly doesn't mean that they're identical clones. You're acting like they were all exactly the same, when that's not the case. No they are not exactly the same. But the idea "Oh these guys in black with face paint look ridiculous, not like these guys in black and face paint." is asinine. Its like thinking spheres are stupid not like awesome circles. "Oh Bane's not so tough. Superman could beat him up." 1. The Dr. is nothing short of a mind tyrant. He simply does not allow room for other thoughts or differing opinions. Doc, if you think I am being insultive here, well, sorry man. But yeah, do a thorough search of your posts both here and elsewhere. You come across as a control freak that needs everyone to think the same as you because if they don't you will chastise them for it. Basically, you're a very confrontational person. I have thought on more than one occasion when I see your username as the last post, "I wonder who he will say is completely wrong now." It is a gimmick that needs to end. 2. So 500lb women in short-shorts look just as hot as pornstars in short-shorts? Are you blind to appearances, or what? At any rate, it is a strawman argument that you made look worse and yourself incapable of noticing the logical inconsistency of, "One can look better than the other." Pretty basic stuff, really. 3. Superman would pop Bane like a pimple. Period. Bane might have broken the Bat but Superman could literally eat Bane. Like cannibalism eat. Such as?

"I liked Demolition better when they were called the Road Warriors anyway." I prefer the Roadies as an overall team. They were huge draws, moved merchandise, and had an aura about them like Rick James. Demo were better workers but didn't have the edge the Warriors did.

Oh man. 80s Rock & Roll Express during their big traveling days against PG-13 would have been really cool to see.

I've always been confused by Memphis' history. In the 80s, it was the CWA? But in the nineties they became the USWA?

The things we argue about...

Maybe some American wrestling, yes, but worldwide, no, not even close.

#1 on Google PG-13 vs. Rock & Roll Express: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ssmlpoNswOQ

I saw the advertisement for this last night on Raw. I noticed the part of Sting repelling from the rafters. I'm not sure if it is in bad taste or not. Thoughts?

At any rate, here is a perfect example of where what I was thinking did not transition very well into the written word. I can't even remember what it is I was trying to prove, so yeah, under that context, it was rather REish of me. My bad, so sad In some circles it is, though. PG-13 is not as widely known as you may think they are. I do understand where you are coming from though. 1. Yeah, I can see where comparing a real sport versus a non-real sport is ridiculous, but I was trying to bridge the gap between the difference in leagues of professional wrestling and lacked an overall better analogy to provide. I guess I just look at a team like Steiner Brothers more favorably than PG-13 because of their status. Because they were in the spotlight in Japan, in the WWF, and in NWA/WCW. Kind of like watching a minor league batting practice versus watching a major league batting practice, one is clearly better for a reason. Or wondering why Michael Jordan made it at the #3 pick while Sam Bowie didn't as the #2 pick. Or why Ralph Sampson could never live up to the hype he got as the #1 draft pick the year earlier. Basically, if PG-13 > Steiner Brothers and PG-13 is your pick, why aren't PG-13 on a different playing field...kind of like how the Steiner's are to them? 2. I might be wrong, but aren't championship accomplishments outside of American wrestling considered prestigious? Maybe not so much anymore but certainly in the nineties. For the longest time having a lot of title reigns was the selling point to Flair's career. It's what made him Flair. Would Flair be the solid Hall of Famer that he is without his record amount of World Heavyweight title reigns? To answer yes isn't as easy as simply saying yes. It is a definite and valid point to be considered. Nevertheless, saying that being a top champion in one of the bigger leagues means nothing, even in this context, which is the discussion of tag teams, is like not talking about accomplishments in the GOAT discussion. A wrestler who lacks accomplishments won't make the Hall of Fame. The Steiner Brothers are a Hall of Fame tag team. Is PG-13? Would Jerry Lawler have made the inaugural WON Hall of Fame without having been a territorial champion and/or AWA World Champion? Would you tell Jerry that his combined 68 something title reigns mean absolutely nothing because they are worked accomplishments? WON Hall of Fame I briefly took a glimpse at that list, but how many wrestlers are on there that lack a title reign of any kind? How many times under notes does it say, "Worked many fantastic matches." It doesn't for Flair, Kobashi, Lawler, Misawa, or Kawada. Obviously their working ability helped them get in the Hall of Fame, the point is though, that their working ability isn't the only reason why they made the Hall of Fame. Bill Dundee is not a WON Hall of Famer but has plenty of stellar matches on his resume, mostly working opposite of Lawler. 3. The discussion doesn't rely solely on that particular criteria though. Windham & Rhodes were set aside because of their relative short existence as a team. Their matches together were good. In fact, they were one of the better teams WCW had during their tag team years. 4. I suggested making this a sub-forum topic already. I think it would better serve a discussion of this magnitude. Or do you or Loss disagree? 5. Is it telling of PG-13's career that they never made it "big"? I would think that a team so incredibly awesome would have been headlining PPV's and being showcased on at least Nitro. It seems as only excuses have been made to cover that question up. Plenty of workers before, during, and since their time have been "troubled," had a "bad attitude," and were "small," but still made something for themselves. Out of all of the teams mentioned against PG-13, which one is a considerably less known team? Did they have any trouble making a name for themselves? The British Bulldogs made it big but were hated, feared, while being bullies and tyrants of the locker room. The Steiner's were in a similar vein, especially Scotty. The Road Warriors were assholes and stiffed the fuck out of nearly everyone they faced, which would piss a lot of workers off. I'm sorry if those questions or points I am making seem confrontational, it is not my intention - I just need more of a validation than just a match versus match aspect to persuade me into believing that PG-13 is better than any of the teams I originally listed. Because if it was on a match versus match aspect, I doubt any American team would crack the top five. And I doubt that is a point you're willing to admit to. Kawada & Taue has either 6/9/95 or 12/6/96 as their definite trump Misawa & Kobashi have 6/9/95 as their definite trump Doc & Ace have 6/7/96 as their definite trump Hansen & Gordy have 12/16/88 as their definite trump Tenryu & Tsuruta have 1/28/86 as their definite trump Toyota & Yamada has either 11/26/92 or 4/11/93 as their definite trump Inoki & Fujinami have 12/7/84 as their definite trump Benoit & Ohtani have 10/16/94 as their definite trump Hase & Saski have 11/1/90 as their definite trump Los Gringos Locos have 11/6/94 as their definite trump What American team, PG-13 included of course, can compete with any of those matches on the match versus match basis? 12/6/96 has been mentioned in this thread as the greatest tag match of all-time, so by that train of thought then, Kawada/Taue & Misawa/Akiyama are the best tag teams of all-time. Misawa & Kobashi would be the natural #3 team then with their 6/9/95 performance, which would then mean Kawada & Taue are the #1 team of all-time because of their involvement in the 12/6/96 match. Judging purely on a match to match basis is a slippery slope. Because for the life of me, I can't rate a one hit wonder higher then a team that has twice the longevity and overall resume. This is where wrestling traverses into a more sports like discussion for me.

The premise is actually that the ref doesn't allow a wrestler to grab the ropes to get the break, he has to be under the ropes. Heel grabs rope, ref kicks it away, because it's an illegal move. Seriously. The ref reprimands a worker for using the ropes for "extra leverage" for pinning moves and/or submissions as well. Professional wrestling isn't a sport. Never said it was, man.

Again. Further: Minor League baseball player versus Major League baseball player Which one is better? Or: College basketball player versus Professional basketball player Which one is better? Last one: College football player versus Professional football player Which one is better? In sports the former becomes the latter when they are exceptional, usually. There are cases of extraordinary talent in the Minors not making it in the Majors, or not going to the Majors at all. But there are also times where an average athlete at the minor level becomes a sensation in the majors. Danielson vs. Hogan question: If you had read the quoted piece of my post in response to Loss' questioning you would have never posed the question in the first place. I plainly state that I cannot find an answer to the, for a fourth time mind you, "whether or not big league experience and respectable accomplishments outweigh good matches and angles in a promotion not on TNT, USA, or the Samurai Network." The key word is fairly obvious there. The point is, the Steiner's have accomplished far more than PG-13 ever could imagine, but since it is pro wrestling where exposure and marketing counts for something, it is not a fair comparison to make considering one side outweighs the other by a considerable amount. It's like comparing Hogan to Danielson. It is unfair by a large margin. If PG-13 and Danielson had been given the same opportunities of marketing, exposure, and accomplishments, they would undoubtedly be seen as the superior wrestlers. Even still, Danielson is no question better than Hogan in terms of actual wrestling ability, big leagues or not. Whether PG-13 is better then the Steiner's...not quite sold on it just yet. Anyway, Dylan, your pimping of PG-13 has made me more and more eager to see more and more of them, so congrats on that. I'm glad this topic has been brought up.

Vader did bump like a junior in his matches against Misawa. I never thought Misawa had enough power to lift Vader like he did.

Oh, don't get all hissy. I've already said PG-13 is cool. It's like comparing a minor league baseball player to a major league baseball player. Pretty basic stuff, really.

The problem this board and boards like DVDVR have is the user definition of adjectives like awesome, fantastic, and incredible. Any adjective, really. Maybe for users like a Phil Schneider who has seen just about everything there is to see in terms of unquestionable greatness in wrestling from countless promotions over a time span that covers forty-years of footage, he undoubtedly searches for stuff he hasn't seen, stuff that will impress him as much as the pimped lucha, American, and puroresu he has watched for years before. His compilations show that type of discovery trend. Can the same be said about others, like Dylan or Victator specifically? I don’t know for sure, but I cannot recall them having compilations made in their names or having a column in a DVDVR issue. Have they too hit the bottom of the known stuff and are desperate to find new stuff to talk about? Yes and no. But every so often wrestlers, either singularly or as a unit, are brought up as “oh my God, this is an injustice that _______ does not get more praise and/or recognition.” And it is usually by the same people too. That tells me people are digging at the bottom of the “crates” to discover stuff or that they are generally bored with the current product of professional wrestling. Maybe it is because of newly acquired footage, I’m not entirely sure, though. It just seems like a few are trying to influence the many with their ideas and are so blatantly stubborn in their efforts that they will not accept, “Yeah, it is cool, but nothing like Misawa & Kobashi vs. Kawada & Taue, 6/9/95.” That is an obvious debate winner, busting out one of the top two tag matches of all-time, but the thought is the same. Some people simply cannot accept different opinions and thoughts that conflict with those ideas and opinions of their own. Nevertheless, I am no different. I just said that 6/9/95 is one of the greatest tag matches of all-time. It would take a considerable effort to create disaffirmation in me from that particular thinking. However, there are other cases where my opinions can be easily changed, modified, and/or altered. This is not one of those cases, though. However, with the issue at hand, I am more than a little surprised that this discussion has lasted this long. Like I said earlier on, PG-13 is a cool team, but they are not top twenty material. Sure, plenty of distinctions can be made to enhance them further in their positioning, such as “In America, in the 90’s, and not in any major promotion.” Outside of that clear advantage, what advantage do they have over a team like the Steiner Brothers? The Steiner’s were clearly a better team, right? I don’t recall PG-13 kicking the shit out of Kensuke Sasaki, Hiroshi Hase, or Keiji Muto once, let alone a half a dozen times over a span of four years (or so). I have never seen PG-13’s name on the title history for the IWGP Tag Team Championships. PG-13 also never made it big in the NWA, WCW, New Japan, or the WWF like the Steiner’s did. Can anything PG-13 has ever done compare to the first Steiner’s vs. Sasaki & Hase match, which remind you, was in the top twenty of the DVDVR 1990s poll. On a workrate perspective, I am doubtful that PG-13’s chicken shit heel antics could overpower the Steiner Brothers suplexing jobbers all over the place or kicking the literal shit out of Japanese icons. Notwithstanding, not all of those questions could really answer the deeper question of whether or not big league experience and respectable accomplishments outweigh good matches and angles in a promotion not on TNT, USA, or the Samurai Network. Example: The Kings of Wrestling are better than Heath Slater and Justin Gabriel. At any rate, there is a chance that a career retrospective compilation could change my opinion but their material would have to be so incredibly good that it is undeniable, which honestly, I think is not going to happen. I have been known to be wrong in the past, though.

I have to be honest, they would look really weird in comparison to Cena though. But babyface PG-13 teamming with 2007 babyface John Cena? "Women would cry." Will...you getting any ideas yet?