Coffey

I feel like I'm in bizarro world or something because this Stardust shit is cringe-worthy as fuck to me. I want it to go away.

I've been spoiled by PWO. The people here & the conversation has definitely influenced my perception & perspective on pro-wrestling over the last few years. As I watch more stuff & become more familiar with the work of other wrestlers, my opinions often change. Wrestlingforum.com is like a hybrid forum of marks and wanna-be "smarks" (*cringe*). It's just a huge mass influx of many, many fans, mostly with negative attitudes, all trying to appear more "smart" than the other while being overly concerned with being labeled a mark or getting worked. So when thread polls or lists pop-up, they're entertaining for me to read. From the era of Twitter, the fans trying to be perceived as insider fans or whatever the fuck the term is this week, you'll get people trying to name-drop ex-wrestlers just because they've read other people say they're good. Things of that nature. Or people being contrarian just for the sake of it. I come on here & I go to the Microscope & I can find a thread on most wrestlers name-dropped & read page after page of well-written replies about the strengths, weaknesses, flaws & positives about most wrestlers, along with good matches recommended & whatnot. So when I see a thread over there about Top 10 WWE in-ring workers (or something similar) at first, I'm thinking...what the hell is even the criteria? Isn't that subjective to begin with? Obviously different fans look for different things & when you factor in how long you have been watching, with your age & how much exposure to certain wrestlers you have, your opinions will differ. I was certainly not expecting to open the thread & see names like Rob Van Dam, Randy Orton & Dean Malenko though. How many matches did Malenko even have, total, in WWE? Someone even said Lance Storm. Heh. Everyone & their mother was listing Kurt Angle & Shawn Michaels & I remember reading them both being picked-apart here over the time I've been around. Just a completely different world from one website to the next. I wonder how much of that is related to simply the average age here being higher? Or maybe it's just from seeing more stuff, I'm not sure. I just think it would be a different beast entirely around here, with people making arguments for names that would not even come up over there. I know this is a random reply & that board has nothing to do with this one, it was just something I was thinking about is all. I know there was like a Top 100 worker thread (something like that) which had people, including Loss & Dylan (if I recall) working pretty hard to update it & change numbers & whatnot. If that list is just WWE work only & only a Top 10, what names come up? From the change from WWWF to WWF in 1979 to present day, who are the ten best workers in WWE based on solely their work in WWE? It's hard to look at a wrestler with a clean slate & being able to distance their non-WWE career (like work in Japan, territories or WCW, etc.) from how you perceive them. At least it is to me. I'm pretty fucking sure Rob Van Dam is not on any list anyone here would make, regardless.

I feel like everything that could be accomplished with cruiserweights would be better with tag teams. At least then it doesn't hurt guys' careers later on when they're seen as beneath the top guys. A good old fashioned tag team division, with teams, doing team moves & team strategy could work.

I was just talking with a close friend about this exact thing today. Talking about Charlotte, in NXT & how even though her expectations should be extremely high because her father was Ric Flair, they're lowered because she's a woman. Compared to someone like Camacho where his father was Meng/Haku, so the bar wouldn't be that high to begin with but was higher because he was a man. There's definitely a double-standard in pro-wrestling, at least WWE, when it comes to the sexes. Naomi isn't great but she's an athlete & she has improved by leaps & bounds in her short time in WWE. But she has a big butt...so her entire offense now revolves around her attacking people with her ass. It's demoralizing as a viewer. WWE told us that Molly Holly was fat. And she was a heel because she wasn't a slut. It's shameful. AJ Lee got over pretty damn well. Was a pretty good worker, a helluva bumper, a good talker. Had over a million followers on Twitter. She gets on commentary & they clown her like she's in a high school locker room. Why did Cameron get a job at all? She wasn't a wrestling fan, couldn't work, couldn't talk...brought nothing to the table. First one eliminated on Tough Enough. Couldn't even name a pro-wrestling match after her "Alicia Fox Vs. Melina" soundbyte. She was obviously only there because she wanted fame & fortune. So what did WWE do? They hired her anyway...and gave her exactly what she was after. Now she's on a WWE reality show... How does that make someone like Natalya, or a woman that worked her whole life to be a wrestler feel? Or the Diva Search competitions. WWE is just super sexist & they'll never put the women in a position to succeed as workers. They'll always be treated as second class & inferior to the men. That's why the Diva match is the "cool off" match in-between main events. They actually go out of their way to put that match in-between two hyped matches to bring the crowd down. Think about that. If you busted your ass to improve & then your role was to go out there & bring the crowd DOWN, how would you feel? It's a damn shame. Think of all the potential female fans they could grab if they did treat them as serious competitors instead of afterthoughts, whores or piss breaks.

Well, there could be. The problem a lot of the times seems to be with the performers themselves. No one seems to genuinely want to be a real heel anymore. No one wants to get screamed at, spit on & have fans want to assault them. They do spots that get pops, they tell jokes that make people laugh, they have entrance music that makes people stand up and sing and dance and clap and cheer. No one goes out there & just wants people to fucking hate them anymore. Nowadays the only heels that really work, where people actually dislike them, are when they suck. But if you go out & purposely suck, you're not going to last for very long. In a PG environment, of a publicly traded company, that intertwined with social media, how do you get over as a heel where everyone hates you? You can't have merchandise. You can't have toys. You can't have cartoons. You can't have a Twitter account. A lot of that means leaving money on the table. At the end of the day, it's a job. Who is going to do that?

I think what WWE needs to do right now is just change the damn format. The show feels exactly the same right now as it did ten years ago. Starting with an opening promo, having a heel authority figure, a runover segment in the main event slot, etc. It's dated. They need to change things up. Present something fresh & new. Return the feeling of unpredictability. Even if that means starting with a new set, new intro music, new ring ropes, new guard rails, whatever. If you go back & compare the first days of RAW to RAW today, they're vastly different. Not just cause of production values either. But if you go back to RAW in like 2004 & compare it to today...it's like the same show.

The "never do comedy" point is so true. Whenever something is funny on WWE TV, it's because it's something delivered off-the-cuff or unscripted from a genuinely funny, charismatic person. The writers trying to write funny lines or skits for the performers just comes off as cringe-inducing television. I hate it. I think the big star is important to have another "boom" (if there ever is one) but it also has to be in an era with something current in the non-wrestling world as well, so people can relate to it. Austin was an everyman that didn't put up with people's shit & got to put his hands on the boss. Anyone with a crummy job could relate to that. He wanted to drink beer & didn't take shit. That's like a lot of middle-American men. Hulk Hogan was an over-come-the-odds patriotic good guy in an era where it was all about patriotism leading into the gulf war & whatnot. Granted he was over before that too, but do you see wrestlers nowadays on the cover of Sports Illustrated or making appearances on Johnny Carson? He was also the top guy of the first era of cable TV. Kids looked up to him & he toppled over-the-top villains. What are the things that people can relate with nowadays? Being under-qualified for jobs despite having experience and degrees, being in debt due to student loans or medical bills, not being able to get a loan for a home, maybe doubt or a lack of trust in the government. How do you relate things like that to a pro-wrestler? Daniel Bryan was pretty close, I guess.

Yeah, I can see that. When The Ascension get called up, he's going to be down on them too.

I like Ryback but honestly feel like the RybAxel group is doing them both good. I think they work as a tag team, they just need some credible wins & they would be OK. *shrugs*

Can I just say, that although I'm not a big fan of the overall WWE scene right now, there's still a lot that I enjoy. Maybe I'm on this limb by myself, or at least not with a ton of other folk, but I'm really enjoying the Lana & Rusev pairing. It's just so cheesy & over-the-top, it's like a big nostalgic throwback to the 80s. Either when WWF had all sorts of evil foreigners running around, like The Bolsheviks or just straight-up ripping off Brigitte Nielsen in Rocky IV. I like Lana quite a bit, I think she's doing a good job & I think that the crowd will turn her babyface before too long. Rusev (not entirely sure why WWE lately has a habit of dropping people's first names) I still need to see more. He has a couple of gross spots but I need to see him work a non-squash match. Something that goes like 10 minutes. I think he could be decent though. He's certainly athletic & he has like that old Scott Norton feel about him to me. They're going all out with the anti-American thing again. The medal presentation, the giant flag that drops down now...it's ridiculous. The only parts of it I don't like are that Lana has to tell Rusev to "crush!" before putting on The Accolade. Plus, Lana is the one that is going to get over, not the wrestler, and they'll probably split them up eventually, which will leave Rusev dead in the water as just another Vladimir Koslov. Is the goal going to be to build Rusev up & just feed him to Cena (or whomever is the top face at the time) then let him fade away into obscurity? This gimmick doesn't seem to have a real long shelf life or long-term potential.

Randy Orton, to me, is like a WWE version of someone that would have came out of the WCW Power Plant & been slapped in the Natural Born Thrillers. He's just bland & unexciting. I really like that he uses the Diamond Cutter as a finish but what worked for Diamond Dallas Page seems forced for Randy Orton. Namely the "out of nowhere" spots. For DDP, it worked because Page was pretty much just always face-in-peril, getting beat down, having taped ribs...but never giving up. As a fan, you never gave up on Page either because you knew, no matter how bad he was beaten up or injured, or how many times the nWo would beat him with a crutch, at anytime he could hit a Diamond Cutter & it was over. You don't really get that with Orton. He's never really vulnerable, even when he's a babyface. You never feel sympathy for him. You don't think, whether he's heel or face, that he has an attitude where he won't just quit or lose. A lot of it is a stigma that has carried over from his past characters that he's played. He's switch from heel to face & back again about a dozen times. He used to be cocky, then crazy, then cocky & crazy... There's no reason to buy into him. He's just another dude that seems to have been around forever now, that might be heel or might be face but it doesn't matter. Just like Kane, Big Show, Alberto Del Rio or even Christian, since he was mentioned. We've seen all that they are ever going to do. It would take a completely overhaul & repackage, like Isaac Yankem into Kane or Leo Krueger into Adam Rose at this point to make them feel different at all. Randy Orton is going to cut the same promos, work the same match & play the same character that he always has.

How many times can a wrestling fan watch the same Sheamus/Barrett match, regardless of how good it is, until they stop giving a fuck? Once shit is old & played out, it's old & played out. What differs is how long it takes individuals to get to their breaking point. In 2014, with Twitter, texts, DVR, etc. people have a lot shorter attention spans.

WWE has no direction whatsoever & RAW for over a month now, has been absolutely nothing but 100% filler & rematches. Even if you take the Daniel Bryan situation out of it, that doesn't excuse the non-stop rematches, non-progressing storylines or nothing having a fucking point. Shit, I'm not sure if anything after Wrestlemania XXX has mattered. Seth just left The Shield & joined the Authority. Yet tonight the show feels exactly the same as RAW last week. Only now instead of Cena Vs. Wyatt & Shield Vs. Authority, it's Cena & The Shield Vs. The Authority & The Wyatts. They just slapped 'em the fuck together. And the WWE World Heavyweight Title match at Money in the Bank is going to be the same old guys doing the same old shit. Rusev squash, Bo Dallas nothing match, RVD Vs. Cesaro, Barrett Vs. Sheamus, 3MB Vs Los Matadores, etc. It's the same show every fucking week.

Feb, 21, 1998. http://www.wwe.com/videos/the-rock-gives-the-nation-of-domination-gifts-raw-february-21-1998-26023674 (if this is the right one)

I really don't watch much anymore. I used to watch a ton more. Nowadays, I pretty much just catch some of RAW, WWE PPVs & then random shows every now & then like NXT or a NJPW iPPV. Now, if all the time in the past watching wrestlers were time I used to do something like work out, yeah, I would probably be better off. Then again, if all the pizza I've ever eaten in my life had been celery, I would be better off too. I actually thought WWE Network would dramatically increase the amount of wrestling that I watched. Truth is, most of those old PPVs I have no desire to watch, or I remember them because they don't feel like they were that long ago. I'm waiting on the WCW Nitro episodes to go online, then maybe I'll watch some more stuff. Right now, my Network subscription is pretty much for an occasional NXT show & the monthly new WWE PPVs.

If they are dead-set on the Kane/Bryan feud AND want it to keep going, I hope Bryan does get stripped of the title. Is anyone clamoring for that match, let alone feud? Jesus.

Somewhat related but I was watching old WCW PPVs on the WWE Network on the Chrome Cast at my friend's place the other day. We were watching WCW Slamboree 1993, which was a reunion of legends. I had NO IDEA Missy Hyatt was that attractive back in the day.

I know that the episodes of WCW Nitro can not get here soon enough. More than anything, including old Pay-Per-Views, I want to watch old episodes of Nitro in order. For the most part, Nitro was better than WCW PPVs anyway. I want to see all of the Sting Vs. nWo storyline again. That was a great time to be a wrestling fan, even if every episode ending right as it seemed things were about to get good. I miss those cliffhangers!

I love Tanahashi's Frog Splash. If there's one thing I didn't expect to read here, it was people saying he doesn't have a good one. Especially when compared to Mr. 40% RVD. My goodness. And I like the Rainmaker too but I would like it a lot more if he didn't use a freakin' Tombstone Piledriver as the set-up move for it. Ugh.

That's what I want them to do today! It would break-up a lot of the problems I have with RAW: which is where it feels like not only have I seen everything but seen them all a bunch of times. I get tired of feuds never ending & matches being just recycled over-and-over by slapping some new bullshit stipulation on the match. It would be fun to see different matches with different people from different areas of the pecking order. Much like Hogan Vs. Mountie would be awesome, I would like to see TV matches with, let's use Orton as champ for an example: Fandango, Santino, Brodus Clay (who's not even any good), random Diego, Heath Slater...whatever. Even if Orton wins every single match clean in the middle with the RKO, give those other guys something in an 8-10 minute match & at least it's something new & fresh. That's why I used to love the WCW Battlebowl so much. It was just different.

I think in hindsight that The Undertaker turned out pretty well. Do we really want to go with Berserker in that spot & hope things work out as well? The Undertaker is going to go down as one of the best ever in WWE history. More than 20 years of work. I'll admit though, Nord had a great look. The Berserker gimmick was a shame.

Well, nowadays, I think the 2014 version of Rob Vam Dam has climbed to the top of the mountain in terms of wrestlers that I don't give a shit about. Before Van Dam came back, it was a neck-and-neck fight between Randy Orton & Alberto Del Rio however. They're just both so bland & kinda...just there. Kane & The Big Show have also both been around for WAY too long at this point. So, to answer the thread title, nope -- don't give a shit about Orton & wish he would go away. Another example of where I think wrestlers getting "seasons" off, like NBA, NFL could help keep them fresh. There's not territories anymore, so you can't exactly ship Orton to Florida, Texas or Atlanta.

Tito Santana. Namely, in early-mid WWF instead of Bret Hart & target the Latino demographic. Tito had pretty much everything that I look for in a pro-wrestler & he was an incredible babyface. Not that Bret ended up badly or anything when they went with him but Tito did when he got the El Matador gimmick. Great babyface, great face-in-peril, excellent bumper & seller, good, solid offense, good look, decent promo.

This RAW show tonight, after Payback last night which I really liked, felt like a kick in the gut. My big problem is that WWE uses so many guys on TV that I am just not ever going to give two flying fucks about anymore. I never want to see Kane, The Big Show, Rob Van Dam, Randy Orton, Jack Swagger or Alberto Del Rio ever again. Instead they're on every single show, sometimes multiple times. Especially if you include all the damn replays. I'm tired of John Cena too. I like Luke Harper but I don't like Rowan or Bray. I don't care if Bryan comes back or not, really. The "Yes!" shit drives me crazy & I wish he would just wrestle. The Usos are pretty good. Goldust is pretty good. Ryback & Axel, surprisingly, have become pretty good. I would like to see more Fandango, which a lot of people would probably disagree with but at least he still feels fresh to me. Would love a change-up to commentary too. Make it a 2-man team & bring Regal to RAW from NXT. Bring back Brock too, fuck. Would be cool if C.M. Punk could come back too. I want to see new people doing new things & each week being a dramatic continuation of stories. Instead, we get meaningless rematches that last forever that no one was clamoring for in the first place, bad writing, no continuity & unfunny comedy that insults our intelligence. WWE spends so much time sucking their own dick, trying to get over Twitter, WWE.com, the WWE Network, the WWE App, etc. that they forget to get over the goddamn wrestling show.