JerryvonKramer

One of these: Helps to make everyone else on the roster look good. Everyone. He legitimates the JTTS. Why won't modern fans watch jobber matches? Or let me put it another way, put jobber matches on RAW, and what choice have they got (assuming they they want to watch wrestling)?

Bruno is still tremendously over in the shows I've seen and ... well fuck, he's made me a Bruno mark so his status as a draw during Backlund's reign can't be overstated. But my feeling is that the reasons for NYC staying hot when other places were dying is about more than just wrestling. Without even getting into the economy, just the pool of people they are drawing from is that much bigger and more geographically dense than anywhere else. The impression I also get is that wrestling was built into people's routines. That's probably the ultimate a promoter can look to achieve. I know about The Sheik killing Detroit, but why did LA die?

Not in New York. Dory was early 70s.

I think Dory and Backlund have quite a few interesting parallels: - both quite young champs - neither one had any charisma to speak of - both booked in a way that highlighted legitness, both in terms of them as champ and of "the sport" - both booked by promoters who really knew what they were doing And this is perhaps the most pertinent one: - both were champs at a time when business was hot I don't want to say that "anyone" could have been NWA champ when Dory was and drew or that anyone could have been WWF champ and drew when Backlund was champ ... but I do think that neither of these are guys who were bringing extra people to the arena. Or to put in another way, I don't think they are the sorts of guys who'd pop a gate for you or help build up an audience in a town. They drew because they were champs. Their source of legitimacy was the belt itself and in turn they gave the belt a sense of legitimacy by being "no nonsense" kinda guys. Tell me if that's too harsh an assessment. If so, why? If not, then Dylan, doesn't this essentially boil down to saying that NWA champ > WWF champ? This is really where I was going with the Blassie and Dick the Bruiser questions. It's that traveling star vs. territory lynchpin argument again. This is why I mentioned you putting Bruno at #12. Is he there and Blassie much lower down because New York is just that much bigger and more important of a market than LA? Or is there more to it?

I may watch that NWA doc the guy who did the Crockett Good Old Days one made tonight. Dylan, any info on Farmer Burns?

Cheers Dylan. I think you're right by the way, it tallies with everything I've read and heard about that period, just thought it was worth fleshing out. Also, for what it's worth, I've never heard a single worker shit on Dory ever. Have you? He seems to have maximum respect in the industry. While that shouldn't be leant on too much, it is actually quite rare if you think about it.

Dylan, was Dory a bigger draw / star than Jumbo, Bock, Dick the Bruiser and Blassie in your view?

Harley Race managed HHH?

http://placetobenation.com/titans-of-wrest...-may-july-1980/ Parv, Johnny, Pete and Kelly finish up May, June and July of 1980 in the WWF: On the docket tonight: 05-80 PATERA WIZARD SAMOANS ALBANO PROMOS WWF TV 05-19 BATTLE ROYAL MADISON SQUARE GARDEN 05-19 BOB BACKLUND vs KEN PATERA WWF TITLE MADISON SQUARE GARDEN 05-19 PATTERSON/PUTSKI/ATLAS vs SAMOANS/MAIVIA MADISON SQUARE GARDEN 06-14 HARLEY RACE vs FRANK WILLIAMS CHAMPIONSHIP WRESTLING 06-28 TONY ATLAS –KEN PATERA ARM WRESTLING CHAMPIONSHIP WRESTLING 07-12 LARRY ZBYSZKO REFUSES TO TALK TO TONY GAREA CHAMPIONSHIP WRESTLING 07-26 BOB BACKLUND vs KEN PATERA WWF TITLE PHILADELPHIA SPECTRUM 07-26 ANDRE THE GIANT vs HULK HOGAN PHILADELPHIA SPECTRUM Highlights include: - Kelly tells a story of his wife’s 1980 WWF related encounter - This week’s debate: is there such a thing as too much heat for a rulebreaker? - Thoughts on battle royals and arm wrestling contests - Kelly’s bio for legendary jobber Frank Williams, plus a rant about “the pure jobbers†- Plus Tony Garea!! The PWO-PTBN Podcast Network features great shows you can find right here at Place to Be Nation. By subscribing on iTunes or SoundCloud, you’ll have access to new episodes, bonus content, as well as a complete archive of: Where the Big Boys Play, Titans of Wrestling, Pro-Wrestling Super-Show, Good Will Wrestling, and Wrestling With the Past.

Dylan, any particular reason why the NWA 70s champs are so high and Backlund so low on your list? Just curious as to why you think Dory Funk Jr is #69 places above Backlund in the overall scheme of wrestling history? Not saying it is wrong or that I disagree, but that I think it would be interesting to flesh out your thinking behind that when you've got Bruno at #12. I've just noted you've got those 70s NWA champs over Bockwinkel as well. And Jumbo. Did Dory vs. Jack Brisco really draw well enough to put them over these sorts of company lynchpins? On the face of it, I'd have thought a guy like Fred Blassie would have been a bigger draw than Dory Jr. Mil Mascaras was probably a bigger star. John Cena definitely is. I'd have thought Dick the Bruiser was. Not having a go in any way, just interested in your criteria and the facts on which you are basing that. My guess without any real investigation is that in each of their respective runs as NWA champ, Dory and Brisco probably didn't draw as much the five names I've picked out there. That's making the prestige of being the NWA champ and working the champ's schedule do a lot of work. Or are you also factoring in workrate?

I think this has pretty much applied to RAW for the past 15 years. They are booking for the same group of fans in an attempt to lure them back to the same place each week, only that group is a national audience instead of a regional one. How directly do RAW ratings translate into revenue for them though? RAW is mainly still free-to-air TV with the aim of building to PPVs and selling tickets to live shows (i.e. "the next time RAW's in your town") right? This would tie the viewership to money in a much more direct way.

Is there any merit in making a comparison with Memphis and the way the network would work? Rather than bringing people back to the arena every week, it's bringing them back to their TV sets.

So should Spike Dudley have not sold for the same reason? I'm just trying to get how or why you think it's ok for Backlund never to show any vulnerability. In terms of people who never show weakness we're looking at: Superman Bob Backlund Road Warrior Hawk Triple H

I mean, Pete, you're basically describing Scrappy Doo here. Scrappy Backlund.

"Overcompensation" sums it up well. He has too much to prove so he's scared of appearing weak or vulnerable.

Not sure I understand your argument here. I believe that a good babyface should sell well and show vulnerability to generate sympathy and connect with the audience. Bob doesn't do that well and somehow it's my limitation as a fan that I think that isn't good? Is this really where you are saying?

I don't really agree. I agree that those matches are very good to great, but I don't agree that he's working a different style. He's working one style. He carries the match with Hogan but he does it by forcing Hogan into his match. He works Patera the same way he worked Patterson, Valentine, and Inoki. He can be pushed into a bomb throwing contest (see Great Arab Hussein match), but even then he's doing it a very particular way. Backlund works on top more than just about any guy I can think of. He's more dominant in his matches than Hansen or Vader (I truly believe that). He shows less vulnerability than basically any major babyface I've ever seen. I said this on an upcoming show, but I want to say it here too: Backlund has too much struggle in him. I don't like Inoki for the same reason. It may be 20+ years' worth of being programmed to expect a certain unwritten rule of selling: if a guy is kicking another guy's ass, I expect the other guy to sell it. Backlund doesn't sell it, ever, ever. He's always struggling. Always fighting. Always doing some shit to show he's ... not getting his ass kicked. This is why the the matches with Inoki fucking suck for me, because there's Inoki doing exactly the same thing. "But Jerry, in an actual fight, that's what happens" Well I don't watch pro wrestling for its verismilitude, I'd watch UFC if I wanted that wouldn't I! Backlund is the only guy I've ever seen who will carry another guy by kicking their ass. After years and years of watching guys like Flair, it's very hard for me to adjust to that. I see it as a basic limitiation of Backlund's style. Flair can go in there with ANYONE and he makes them good look by showing ass and bumping like a muthafucker. He can work the proverbial broomstick. We've seen Backlund work broomsticks. We've seen him in there with some really shitty guys and with some more mediocre ones (e.g. Duncum). In fact, Duncum is a good case in point. Here's a guy who is taller than Backlund and heavier than Backlund and billed as a "big man". Backlund just kicks the shit out of him from bell to bell. But Duncum is not Ken Patera or Pat Patterson, so surprise surprise, he's not selling Bob's shit that well and the match sucks. This is why for as many great Backlund matches as there are, there are at least as many that are totally shit. I'd argue that Backlund simply doesn't change up his style to fit the opponent. He works the same way regardless of who it is. You could put that fucker in there with Superman himself and he still won't show you an ounce of vulnerability. Bob is in the business of getting Bob over. That's why I don't like him. In the best matches of his, the MVP for me has almost always been the opponent so far. Backlund or Valentine? Valentine Backlund or Patterson? Patterson Backlund or Patera? Patera I don't think it's a coincidence. This isn't just blind prejudice on my part -- Backlund sucks as a promo, I don't like and possibly still don't even understand his basic character -- it's a view I've built up of seeing a lot of Backlund now in different situations, against different opponents. He never changes.

It was my least favourite because most of my drops were from credible rappers I actually listen to like GZA or Nas or whoever and that was from ICP. I included it as a little nod to their involvement with wrestling. It was the only drop from a song I didn't already own.

This is where my "great matches aren't the only metric" talking point goes into overdrive. I can't think of a guy who it applies to more than Backlund. I'll say more in a bit.

Bob Backlund or Owen Hart? Bob Backlund or Brian Pillman? Bob Backlund or Steve Austin? Bob Backlund or Bret Hart? Bob Backlund or Jumbo Tsurta? Bob Backlund or Tito Santana? Bob Backlund or Tully Blanchard? Bob Backlund or Kurt Angle? Bob Backlund or Harley Race? Bob Backlund or Rick Rude? Bob Backlund or Scott Hall? Bob Backlund or William Regal? Bob Backlund or Triple H? Guess I want a sense of where people rank Backlund. Despite seeing lots of very good to great matches from him now, I still don't really like him.

Thanks for that Funk stuff.

Yeah, I think that nails it Dylan.

I think of Race and Matysik as 70s guys and Corny as an 80s guy. I think the 70s guys have a very particular conception of what a good wrestler should be. Does Funk say what he thinks of Lawler anywhere? I'd be interested in that.

Larry Matysik is down on Lawler too, it's not an uncommon view from guys of that era.

Directors often like very visual directors whose films look like paintings like Won-Kar-Wai or Peter Greenaway.