JerryvonKramer

I wonder if Orndorff was a good enough worker or perceived as being good enough.

I know Matysik is just one guy, but he was close to Muchnick and with him I honestly don't get the impression that "was he a good heel" came into the consideration that much. Cubetta asks him in passing about Backlund as a possible NWA champ, for example, and he considers it. He rules it out, but the reason is not because he was a babyface. Martel first works in St. Louis in 81, and he's asked about him as world champ and his answer is that "he could have been a good world champ", his reservations were that he wasn't well enough established in key markets -- not that he couldn't work heel. By 81 standards, I realise that Matysik's outlook was "old school", but I think it's worth mentioning here. Are we not looking at this with modern eyes / late 80s eyes a bit too much?

Orton is not a bad shout.

Ok, I don't dispute Thesz worked heel in some matches, the point was that he -- and later Dory and Jack -- in general were more tweener-ish. Set aside the question of Rich, Steamboat and Martel for a moment, you agree at least that there is a distinction to be made between Race and these earlier champions? Yes? I at least want to establish that to know that we're at least on the same page here. As I see it, Thesz (and O'Connor, and then Dory and then Brisco) all worked a style that could be described as "legit best wrestler" -- they might get pushed close by these local heros but ultimately ring savvy and cunning would see them through. So a backslide or a small package might win them the the third fall in that 45-minute match against whomever. If that requires a sneaky leg on the ropes here and there, so be it. Race (and then Flair) worked a distinctly different style: they were heels through and through. They went in and bumped around and then did something cheap to sneak the win. Your own term, jdw, is "playing the bitch". Would you agree on this essential difference? Let's assume that you're right on Steamboat and Martel (Rich is only listed because Barnett might have pushed for him again), if Ted was going to be champ, it seems to me that he'd have been a champ closer to the first model. There's not a lot about pre-82 Ted I've seen that suggests to me they would have been asking him to play a bitch heel champ in the Harley / Flair mould. If anything, as a worker, he was closer to Backlund (without the headlocks).

jdw - you're making a big assumption there that the NWA were wedded to the idea of a heel champ like Harley, but were either of The Funks or Brisco heel champs in this mould? Nothing I've seen of cards or footage suggests this to me. Who was the face in the Harley vs. Terry Funk matches? Couldn't Rich, Steamboat or Martel have worked the title like Brisco worked it? Was "the norm" Harley or was "the norm" actually more like Thesz? Also, I don't believe Ted worked heel at all at this point -- only possible place that isn't quite on my radar is Mid-South prior to 1979. I want to say the famous turn in Mid-South in 82 was the first time he'd worked heel anywhere. What makes him so different from Harley? Seems like the closest guy around to Harley if they wanted like for like (which you seem to be assuming).

The argument with Dusty is always that he was more compelling in the chase than as champ. My impression of Dory Jr/Brisco/Terry is that they were a bit tweener-ish, so they could go into any town and effectively work vs. a face or a heel. If they were against a heel, they'd be the de facto face, if they were against a face, they could work the subtle heel. Race could work vs. a face or a heel too, but I think more often than not he was against the local hero unless he was in his backyard (Central States and sometimes St. Louis) where he could go vs., for example, a heel Dick Murdoch as a de facto face. With Dusty, you effectively take away this idea, unless you can see Dusty working "subtle heel" in a lot of towns. Can you? The other knock on Dusty long-term is that he might have been seen by some as taking credibility away from the title.

I've been thinking of doing this sequel to the much loved Race 83 and Backlund 78 threads for a while. Although I think there is a clear frontrunner here, I do think that unlike the other two cases, there were possibly many more options on the table. So let's say something happens to Flair and he disappears off the face of the earth in 1981, who do they go with as NWA champ? Just in case you're not sure, I'm talking about Ric Flair's first title win on September 17, 1981 over Dusty Rhodes. As I understand it, the decision had already been taken to take the belt off Harley long term and Dusty was always meant to be a transitional champ to drop the belt to Flair. If that is in *any*way incorrect, bet your bottom dollar someone will be popping into this thread to point it out. Anyway, in this scenario, Flair simply disappears before this date. Or, if you'd prefer, there is no Ric Flair. Who else do they run with? I'm just going to run through a few of the options as I see them: Ted DiBiase - leave your "JVK's a Ted mark" jokes aside, in 1981 he was headlining shows against Race in St. Louis where he was thought of highly by Sam Muchnick and headlining shows in Georgia where he was thought of highly by Jim Barnett. In addition, he was seen by peers and fans alike as one of the best workers in the country and at 27-years old was at a good time in his career to take the toil of the road. The main question mark over Ted was that, unless I'm mistaken, at this point he'd never worked heel. This would have probably marked a turn back to the Funk-Brisco style NWA champ and away from the Harley style, unless Ted changed up how he worked. We know he could have worked more like Harley / Flair, which he did later in his career, but at this stage he'd mostly been a solid fiery babyface with great fundamentals who could also talk if need be. However, I think if you look at the politics and landscape of the time, though, he has to be considered our frontrunner. Not only is he a good fit for the role, he's someone that you might imagine the various heads of the promotions agreeing on since he was probably not seen as being obviously anyone's "guy". Ken Patera - this the horse that one would assume Dylan would be backing here, but from looking at a lot of cards from this era recently and working through those Matysik shows, I think he's right in the mix. He has a few key things going for him: first, household name recognition; second, he's coming off a big run in New York where he showed he could draw and headline shoes; third, he was a great character; forth, he was a heel who could bump -- a like for like replacement for Harley. Patera could have done the job. There are only two potential downsides with him that I can see, one is his age: at 39 he doesn't look like the guy you want leading your world title into the 1980s longterm. The second problem -- and this is more contentious -- is the fact that he was more of a "strong man" in this period and if you look at the champions from Whipper Billy Watson to Race himself, they weren't typically those sorts of wrestlers. Bobo Brazil was probably the closest. Tommy Rich - earlier in 1981, Barnett had pushed for Rich to get the title for a quick bump to the Georgia gate. There's nothing to suggest that Barnett wouldn't have pushed for Rich again in this scenario (he would have surely pushed for Rich over DiBiase, for example, in the first instance). There are some obvious disadvantages to Rich: he was very young and not proven as a draw outside of Georgia or Memphis; he was a babyface through and through at this point and that either means an awkward turn or face vs. face against Dusty; and, finally, he would have been seen by the other promoters as being overwhelmingly "Barnett's guy". Still, he's a possibility. Ricky Steamboat - Flair was Crockett's guy. If there's no Flair, then Crockett needs another horse to back, and I think there's every reason to believe that at this point, that horse would have been Steamboat. As with Ted, Steamboat would have been winding the clock back to a Brisco-style champ, and, as with Rich, it would lead to an awkward booking situation in the match with Dusty, but I can't think of who else Crockett would have been pushing at this point. Dory Funk Jr / Terry Funk / Jack Brisco - these former champions were all still around and all had situations where they'd have been burnt out from their world title runs. But, the possibility is there for them to be talked into coming back for a last go round with the title. Brisco seems like he was working more dates in 81-82 than he had been and was loved and respected by several offices around the country. Dory and Terry were still working a lot of dates everywhere and in Japan. We're starting to stretch things, but it's not impossible for something like this to happen. Buddy Rose - this is more in "PWO wet dream" sort of territory, but at least one promoter might have mentioned him, and in many ways, he could have done an identical job to Harley. He was built like Harley (in 81), he could bump like Harley, he could go 60 minutes, he could talk, he could do everything you'd expect the NWA champion to do. The minus points? Politically, I can't imagine him to have been that strong, and I don't know how well he was known outside of the North West and West coast as a draw. Outside shot, but still, he's kinda on the table. Rick Martel - speaking of PWO wet dreams ... Martel was less well established as a top draw in the US than some of these other candidates and as with Rich, Steamboat and to an extent Ted, we have that babyface situation. But Martel did have a rep within the business as a good worker, and had several world title shots against Harley. I suspect 1981 might be a little early for Martel realistically to have been in the NWA World Title picture, but it's not inconceivable that his name would have come up. Dick Murdoch - now Murdoch was seen as a bit of a maverick, but he's another guy with all of the tools required and would have been more or less the closest thing to a like for like replacement to Race imaginable. One major thing Murdoch would have had going for him in this particular scenario is that the booking to the match with Dusty could have been spectacular. With the two of them having so much history, and both being great characters, it could have made a fantastic lead-in feud and blow off. Murdoch's main problem, I believe, is that he was seen as being a bit of a back-stage clown and that sort of thing didn't sit well with being champion. Greg Valentine - in terms of premier heels in the business who could go, Valentine is surely a name that has to be mentioned. Like Harley, he worked a methodical style and just ask Gorilla Monsoon if he could go 60 minutes. The main drawback with Greg, however, is that unlike Harley or Flair, he wasn't a big personality. And I don't know if his record as a draw was anything more than "solid". Still, he'd proven himself in New York and Greensboro, and had wrestling in his blood. It's not too hard to make a compelling case for Greg. Bruiser Brody - as much as everyone hates him, he was a proven draw everywhere he went, and was perceived as being a guy who could go when he wanted. On the downside, he could go into business for himself and was known as being ruthless and uncooperative when he wanted to be. He's on the very very long-shot list, but in terms of "biggest stars in wrestling in 1981", his name is in that mix. -------- I'll stop there. There are other names I could throw out, but I want to leave space for others to make suggestions.

Watch this space I have about twenty million.

We should note that Gene Kiniski was a heel champion, but I have no idea how he worked. It's possible that Race learned his style from Kiniski who was around St. Louis a lot then. They did really respect a legend in St. Louis, but I'm inclined to agree. At times it looks like a retirement home for former NWA world champions.

Flair vs. Garvin

The those 16,000-18,000 Checkerdome shows from 1981 upto and including the Mucnick retirement show are really impressive when you consider the size of St. Louis as a market compared to, say, New York.

Note for James: Gene Lewis was Central States's "Ace" at this point (lol)

I can take the Rotunda stuff, but lay off Teddy ok.

I'm not sure if DiBiase was really a "disappointment" in his Mid-South run. He has some great blood feuds and matches. I'd say he's generally disappointing in All Japan. 1988 is a decent marque year for him in WWF with big Hogan angle and the Savage feud. 1989 he has the Bret match and one vs. Blue Blazer, but generally that's a "down" year for him. But all in all, I don't see how his 80s was "disappointing". A lot of the matches you looked at in that thread were 90-93 when he'd settled into a WWF formula.

Harley Race's kneedrop into the temple always looks brutal.

I was floating the idea of Terry as a "bridge" guy between the two styles, but in practice I think he played it more like his brother than like Race. I get the impression that Race was a radically different style of champ from the Funk-Brisco era and, from what I can tell, the champs of the 1950s and 1960s too. Race seemed to invent what I called before "NWA champ style".

Two things: 1. I have gone right off Bulldog Bob Brown since Matysik mentioned he was racist. He wouldn't give the young Butch Reed a ride from Kansas to St. Louis so he had to take the bus. When he was confronted about this he said "Well, y'know it's just one of things". No, asshole. 2. Listening to the 1981 Part 1 show this morning, and he talked about a record gate at the checkerdome headlined by Harley Race and Ted DiBiase that drew over 16,000. This was at the same time as the famous inury angle with DiBiase and the Freebirds in Georgia. I've found this great poster of that card. Note Patera and Flair vs. Bruiser and Dusty on a very strong undercard: After looking at some of this data more closely and reading around in the past month or so, I think a couple of things: - DiBiase's rep as a "top 2 or 3 worker in the US" was cemented BEFORE his Mid-South run and before he'd worked heel. - If we did a "If not Flair, then who" style thread for 1981, then Ted looks like lock to be heir apparent in that year with Patera the only other real contender.

The correct answer to this thread is Jimmy Garvin

I just did a search to see if that is the first time anyone has used the word "historiography" on this board. Remarkably it isn't. Several uses over the years. El-P was the first in 2009. As a basis of comparison, I ran that same search term on a couple of other wrestling forums I've been to, which have been around for longer than PWO: Also, thanks Loss for clearing up Ken Shamrock question.

Is fame just a flat measure of recognition factor or something else?

Ones I split into parts don't count. For the record, my rule is 3 hours should be viewed as the maximum limit. Poor Kelly has been working on Titans 11 for three days now trying to get it to three or under. This would be a good time to ask if anyone has views on this: how long is too long or doesn't it matter?

Why was Ken Shamrock on the ballot?

Meltzer seems to want to catch the zeitgeist of critical opinion based on the quoted comments. Fine, so make it about work and work alone. I think the whole thing is a clusterfuck.