JerryvonKramer

lol, that's so Mid-South. Can't wait to watch that stuff again.

Part of criticism is working out why we think the things we do. You don't make judgements in a vacuum, you'll have a critieria, and the chances are that that criteria overlaps significantly with the criteria of other fans. That's how we get consensus in the 80s projects; it's why, as I said, no one has listed Dan Spivey in any of their tiers. It appears "simple" because we don't think about it. The judgements are automatic, intuitive and often not thought through, but that does not mean there are not underlying reasons for the judgements. If it was really as simple as you make out, then this forum would consist of 100s of 1-line posts saying "I think this guy is great". "Oh, I think he's terrible". That's the sort of discourse that emerges if we don't think about reasons for making judgements.

What was the angle with Wrestling II and Magnum TA? I can't imagine Magnum being heel, was it Wrestling II who turned?

I was just listening to your Japanese Wrestling ep, drinking a cup of tea as one does at 4am, and your buddy just made me almost spit out a mouthful. "Now, is this really going to be interesting, or is this going to be Kelly interesting?" Genuinely had me cracking up.

Sorry, ignore that post. I have no interest in any iteration of an objective vs. subjective argument and will tap out before it even starts. All I was trying to say is that the interesting thing might be in the criteria. Like how are you arriving at your tier 1 guys and your tier 2 guys and so on?

I'd like to note that I've never heard of Bill Simmons or his pantheon. I first used the "four tier" system when someone asked me to provide them a top 100 albums list about 8 years ago. I told them that I couldn't do a straight 100-1 ranking and instead think in terms of "tiers of greatness". I guess it is not that surprising that someone else had the same idea. I've been interested in systems of grading and ranking for as long as I can remember and will write a book on it in the next few years called "Rating Things" -- it is definitely happening. My view that has developed over the past few years is that it is EASY to sort things into these "grade bands" or tiers, but virtually impossible to to select between two things in the same sort of tier. So very easy to tell a a 5-star film from a 3-star effort, but much more difficult to split hairs between two bona-fide 5-star films. David Hume had a similar thought. I think this is the case with both wrestlers and matches. On the DVDR ballots, I think everyone comes face-to-face with this. What I'm undecided on is whether the "best of the best vs. best of the best" argument is actually interesting or worth having. Like arguing the toss over "who was better, Shakespeare or Tolstoy?" strikes me as being pretty facile and pointless. Part of me thinks that the interesting thing is the criteria by which you get to that judgement. So not "Shakespeare vs. Tolstoy", but "why is Shakespeare obviously several leagues above Webster, Kyd and Fletcher?" But then we get stuff like that Flair vs. Bret thread, which has me tearing my hair out even to think about it (because Bret so clearly, clearly isn't in that same league), and I wonder. Absolute subjective relativism strikes me as a basically wrong view -- it just isn't right, the consensuses across every field are too strong to ignore, there's no critic out there who goes and gives The Godfather one star, there's no wrestling fan pimping Dan Spivey as a GOATC, always easier to see this in the extremes -- but I've never been able to work out my argument for why that is without resorting to the idea that "there are idiots in the world".

I thought it was a reference to Pippen who was mentioned earlier.

March - Week 1 Ivan Koloff vs. Joe Lightfoot Lightfoot is announced and comes out. He raises his arms and gets a small ovation. "... And his opponent, The Russian Bear ... weighing in at 270lbs ... Ivan Koloff!" There is no sign of Ivan. Markoff comes out flanked by Malenko and Wiskowski. He grabs the mic from the ring announcer. Solie: "The, uh, K.G.B. have arrived, maybe they will provide us, uh, with some exaplainations for the absence of their compatriot. You, uh, may recall that they took some, uh, rather violent actions against him last week." Markoff: "Listen capitalist subjects of the imperial forces of America ... " Crowd boos. Markoff: "Ivan Koloff has been withdrawn from service. He will no longer represent the USSR in professional wrestling." Just for kicks, Markoff uses the mic to smash Lightfoot over the head, instantly knocking him out. Malenko gets in a few cheap stomps and Wiskowski drops some elbows. This is a pretty cowardly heel beat down on a JTTS. -------- Some key acquisitions now. Doug Somers Shouldn't be too hard to lure in the journeyman. Not entirely sure where he was in March 83. Swede Hanson He was doing virtual job duty for WWF at this time, so promise of money plus featuring in this feud should be enough to get him to come down. Matin Ruane aka Giant Haystacks Yes, I'm putting the "fantasy" into fantasy booking here. He had regular stints in Stampede so this is not too far-fetched. ----------------- March - Week 2 Tommy Rich vs. ???? Solie: Tommy Rich was scheduled to be defending his title against Ivan Koloff, but no one has seen him since he was abducted by the KGB two weeks ago. Officer Kolenko Markoff has told the NWA board of directors that the USSR WILL be sending a representative to take Koloff's place in this match. Tommy Rich is introduced and the crowd is hot for him. Markoff comes out, as ever flanked by Malenko and Wiskowski, and grabs the mic from the ring announcer. Markoff: "This is what you imperialists excuse for a Champion? I have many men at my disposal who would be able to dispatch 'Tommy Rich'. But there is no need." He turns to Malenko. Markoff: "Even Boris, here, a man of experience and wisdom, can succeed ... where Comrade Koloff had failed" Tommy Rich looks at Malenko -- still wearing his uniform, clearly a man in his 50s, and not a big one -- and laughs. Solie: "Well, uh, it is to be Boris Malenko, the professor, the Great Malenko, making his in-ring return here against the NWA National Heavyweight Champion, Tommy Rich ... I have to say that Mr. Markoff has surprised me by his choice of representative. One feels that Mr. Malenko may have a little ... uh, shall we say ring rust." The bell rings. Malenko doesn't take off the uniform. Rich goes for Malenko who immediately bails and hides behind Wiskowski. Rich is fired up and goes after him. He isn't scared of "the KGB". Wiskoski backs up and Rich goes after him. Malenko sneaks back into the ring. As Rich goes after Wiskoski, Markoff sneaks up behind him and does a chop block taking out Rich's leg. Wiskoski kneedrops him as Malenko distracts the ref. Crowd is not happy. They roll Rich back into the ring and Malenko gets in some cheap stomps. Not long before Rich fires back up though and starts beating on Malenko. He goes to the ropes and Markoff trips him. The ref goes over to remonstrate with him. As the ref's back is turned Wiskoski drags Rich out of the ring. Then, seemingly out of nowhere two masked wrestlers looking not unlike this jump Rich: Solie notes that one of them has a large Russian hammer symbol on his tights, and the other has a large sickle. "Hammer and Sickle". ["Hammer" is Doug Somers under the mask and "Sickle" is Swede Hanson]. Together with Wiskoski they start beating the shit out of Rich while the ref is still tied up with Markoff. Malenko creeps over to behind the ref and gets in the classic "schoolboy" position and Markoff pushes the ref over him. They start stomping on the ref as Rich is still getting decimated outside. Wiskoski rolls Rich back into the ring and we see a massive man -- Giant Haystacks wearing a big white Russian fur coat and a fur "Ushanka" Russian hat -- making his way to the ring. The crowd is almost rioting. Solie is beside himself. He gets into the ring. Hammer, Sickle, Wiskoski and Malenko each stretch a limb of Rich's. Markoff does a Russian salute. Haystacks now gives Rich a big splash. And then another one. Paul Orndorff has seen enough and comes out. As does Tito Santana. Stan Hansen runs out. Even Ole Anderson seems outraged. The Russians quickly scarper although Haystacks doesn't look like he's scared or in a hurry. The wrestlers seem more concerned for the welfare of Rich who seems like he's about to die. We get a full stretcher-job now. Solie is almost speechless.

It isn't anything against Blackwell. He's a newer discovery for many people. I haven't even watched the AWA set yet. It will take time. Card placement shouldn't be a factor on this list at all. This is PWO, not PWI. You say that Charles, but look at the people who have been named thus far. I don't see any SD Jones-level guys listed outside of El Dandy (now look who is ducking for cover! ) EDIT: Re Adonis, not making my tiers at all I'm afraid from what I've seen of him.

Another thing that interests me here. Pretty much no one is going to disagree that Vader is a tier 2. But for those of us who watched through the AWA set, there was a good deal of consensus that Jerry Blackwell, as a big man, was probably second only to Vader. But, unless I'm very much mistaken, I can't see a guy like Blackwell making tier 2, or maybe not even tier 3 on anyone's list. What's Vader got that makes him a lock tier 2 that Blackwell hasn't? Just interested in the thinking behind these opinions. I wonder if part of it is down to main event runs. Vader had marquee main event runs, Blackwell didn't. That sort of thinking also hurts someone like Bobby Eaton or your Ricky Mortons.

See, Bret is as automatic a tier 2 guy in my mind as Steamboat. Are there arguments for seeing Bret as a GOATC and Steamer as a tier 2? If there are, I can't fathom them. You putting Tully in tier 3 there, Chad, interests me. We have a solid decade of stuff from him. We think his time is cut short, but how many guys really have a peak longer than 7 years?

Yeah, I guess "handful" undersold it. But if there are 25 legit GOATCs, then, by my completely-made-up-on-the-spot pyramid principle, there should be about 50 tier 2s, 100 tier 3s and 200 tier 4s!

I realise I should have provided a set of tiers here myself to try to get the conversation going, but I guess my interest was in seeing where certain guys would fall. There are people like Tully who everyone seems to like but who never come up in GOAT discussions. Where does he go? Is Rick Rude good enough to a tier 4 guy? Where do you put Cena? Where do people put Shawn? All these sorts of things. Some of it depends on how high you set the bar. Like, to me, Jumbo and Bockwinkel are in the GOAT discussion, even if they don't have a realistic chance of being number 1, they belong that high and don't look out of place in that company. Once you start saying guys like that are tier 2, then maybe everything gets shunted down a bit.

There has been a lot of GOAT discussion on this board and it is well established who is typically thought of as being in that discussion and who is not. In this thread, I'd like to see who the PWO regulars would rank in the 2nd, 3rd and 4th tiers of greatness. Tier 2 is for guys who are obviously not in the GOAT discussion, for whatever reason, but who are still pretty great. Tier 3 is the next rung below that and so on. I'd expect to see a pyramid shape here: only a handful of guys worthy of GOAT discussion, maybe double that in tier 2, double that again in tier 3, etc. I haven't worked out my own tiers yet. Probably Ricky Steamboat and Bret Hart would both be bonafide tier 2 guys in my book. Martel more like a tier 3. Hennig tier 4. Let's see how this goes.

All this talk of Hart vs. Bravo and Wrestlefest 91 is making me nostalgic for my Colisieum VHS tapes hosted by Sean Mooney. If it's the match I'm thinking of, this is 92 sort of time and Bravo has dark hair. In the context of those tapes, a match like that does stand out. It's why my memory of something like DiBiase vs. Warrior from the World Tour is inflated. The "Supertape" series in general is quite a good showcase for what made Bret a bit different in this period. He has a pretty cool match with Rick Martel on one of them and a decentish match for the IC title with IRS. Both worth tracking down for this thread. One with Skinner too. [Random aside: Supertape 92 was the first place I'd seen the Jake vs. Savage feud and blow off in Tuesday in Texas and the promos left me open mouthed.] EDIT: Oh I haven't seen the 89 Bravo match. The one I have in mind was from Germany, the European Rampage tour.

Also, I just watched the trailer for that new 2k14 Wrestlemania game that is coming out and it looks absolutely amazing. I got rid of my Xbox 360, but may be forced to pick up a 2nd hand one just to play that. ALSO, looking at the roster, it marks the first time in about 7 years that DiBiase is listed as "Ted DiBiase" not "Million Dollar Man". An oversight at corporate HQ?

Pretty sure she was in one of the WCW N64 games ... Revenge probably. The managers in that game were awesome. You could have your mate pick up the second controller and be the manager outside the ring.

placetobenation.com/where-the-big-boys-play-47-jim-crockett-promotions-the-good-old-days/ WARNING: If you have not yet seen the Jim Crockett Promotions: The Good Old Days documentary, DO NOT listen to this episode until after you have done so. Get it from here, or if you are a UK fan, here. If you want to listen to a podcast previewing this set with the director, see the Wrestling Culture podcast episode 45. This episode is intended only for those who have already seen the documentary. If you have not seen it and try to listen, I'll personally come to your house and break your headphones. *** In this impromptu episode, Chad and Parv discuss the new Jim Crockett Promotions: The Good Old Days documentary by Michael Elliot. Talking points include: - Old mentor / young protege teams - George Scott-era Mid-Atlantic in the 70s - Evaluation of the documentary's strengths and weaknesses - In-depth hour-long analysis of the reasons for the decline of JCP

Think it's just because Flair didn't stick to topic. They were meant to be talking about great Wrestlemania moments and he mainly just put himself over or talked about things that were not relevant. I refuse to believe JR was fully sober though.

The Bill Watts ones were great: informative, entertaining and downright scary all at the same time.

What's happened with this then? Is it tax? Have the private mail guys just jacked up their prices? When I go to buy a $2 Dave Meltzer book and the postage is $40, something has gone very wrong. This can't be good for business anywhere, it seems very un-capitalist.

Peaks and troughs, people, peaks and troughs.

Yeah bit of an overstatement. I only watched like 60 seconds. JR seemed far gone to me.

Featuring shoe, Ricky Jackson and Johnny Sorrow. http://placetobenation.com/titans-of-wrest...h-to-june-1979/ On the docket tonight: 03-26 BRUNO SAMMARTINO vs IVAN KOLOFF MADISON SQUARE GARDEN 03-26 ALBANO/VALIANTS vs ZBYSZKO/GAREA/DUSTY RHODES MADISON SQUARE GARDEN 03-26 PETER MAIVIA vs IVAN PUTSKI MADISON SQUARE GARDEN 03-79 VALIANTS/ALBANO, PUTSKI, MAIVIA/BLASSIE PROMOS WWF TV 04-14 GREG VALENTINE vs SD JONES CHAMPIONSHIP WRESTLING 04-79 TED DIBIASE, VALIANTS PROMOS WWF TV 04-14 VALIANTS vs TED DIBIASE/FRED CURRY/STEVE TRAVIS CHAMPIONSHIP WRESTLING 06-02 NIKOLAI VOLKOFF vs JOSE ESTRADA CHAMPIONSHIP WRESTLING 06-04 BOB BACKLUND vs GREAT HUSSEIN ARAB WWF TITLE MADISON SQUARE GARDEN Some other topics include: - Introductions to the 'three wise men' of wrestling podcasting, Johnny Sorrow, Kelly Nelson (aka Ricky Jackson) and Pete Shirmacher (aka shoe) - Celebrating countout wins - Pak Song - More Gentleman Jerry Valiant detail - Fred Blassie awesomeness and fashion plates

You're probably right, I'm not going to watch it through to find out.