JerryvonKramer

I remember the Greensboro crowd being deathly silent for Colon vs. Abby at Starrcade 83. How many other times did Colon work outside PR in any of the major territories?

Just in case anyone thinks that is gay porn or whatever, it's from the show Jersey Shore. I remember my wife watching it a while back and cracking up. I have no idea if that's the same Jersey Shore that Johnny lives in.

Which one of these are you Johnny?

Was he really all that bad as The Narcissist? If nothing else, that elbow smash he did was pretty badass. Luger is one guy who LOOKS so good because of his body and his general shape that he looks amazing just running the ropes. Like, there are few guys who look cooler taking an Irish whip. I just watched this little three-minute jobber match: Did clotheslines ever look so sexy as that? Also, he pins the dude with his little finger, ha ha ha. I'm also a mark for the build to the Perfect match at Mania. Not the match itself but the segment with Luger looking at himself in the mirror and Perfect appearing on the big screen. Most arrogant feud since Martel vs. Michaels the year before.

On the subject of books, does anyone know a book or podcast or shoot interview that is particularly good on the art of booking or on the ins and outs of booking? Booker is one of those jobs I can scarcely believe exists, so I find it fascinating.

Hey now, I've been very complimentary about Bock in recent posts. I can't be much nicer about him. Do you want me to tell you I want to suck him off too? Chad can represent Where the Big Boys Play here, one of several upcoming celebrity appearances for him. (Much as I'd like to wind Will up about Brad Rheingans being a jobber, main reason I can't take part is that I'm not a millionaire and I imagine a 3-hour call to the States would cost a bomb.)

Shit, this is some comeback from Sting. He only had 3 votes last I saw!

While I wont be taking part in this, I can't wait to hear the end results.

genuine lol Mr. Sorrow

The big questions here on PWO.

"What if Mike Rotunda had never become a wrestler?"

If we get to 6 players, I'll run it.

I want to defend myself a little bit here, the DiBiase comparisons haven't come from my urges, they've come from my reactions to people making wildly controversial claims like "Bossman is a better worker in WWF" and "Luger vs. Windham is better than any match DiBiase ever had in WWF". However, I think I've hit the point Loss did a week ago and got burnt out so I'm going to chill for a week or two and concentrate on AWA and Yearbooks.

Right now, mid-way through 1989, Luger hands down and it's not even close. And I'm expecting him to be a lot better than Sting in 1990 too. However, I'm not sure Luger ever reaches the heights of Sting's matches with Vader. Luger still has quite a lot of greenness and annoying little things he does in 1988, but then so does Sting. Sting's performances in those matches in 92 are genuinely excellent. I don't recall Luger ever being as good as that. As a general performer though I'd go Luger for sure. He just looks terrific late 80s, and executes several moves really well. Also, I like his Flair matches, whereas I can leave any of the Sting-Flair matches, including Clash 1 which I think is wildly overrated. I also like Luger's loud heavy breathing and noisy selling. Also, Luger can work heel. TNA barely exists to me, so I don't know if Sting has proved he can work heel, but something tells me not. I predict my buddy Chad also goes for Luger here. On an inconsequential side note, one thing I've noticed is that BOTH Luger and Sting had exceptionally HIGH ELBOW DROPS. Who has the better high elbow drop? Again, I'd go for Luger. EDIT: One more thing I'll say is that with the wrong opponent, Luger can suck even in 1988. The matches with Nikita Koloff are painful. That's just bad booking in my view, but it's something to take into account. Sting is notorious for phoning it in when he wants to as well, but I think an average bad Luger match is probably worse than a bad Sting match.

http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?s=&a...t&p=5523143 Loss has a different list in that thread as well. I'll add 2 more to that: vs. Luger at Starrcade 88 vs. Steamboat at Clash VI I also think in all these matches you can see the different sides of my little thesis from earlier in this thread. I look forward to seeing what you make of these. Going back to the Bock comparison briefly, I've been thinking more on it today and I actually think they are two very different wrestlers: - Bock has 3-4 different gears and he tends to pick a gear and stay in it for the whole match. He's a guy with a gameplan and a strategy and he'll try to stick to that gameplan. - Flair also has multiple gears but he kinda takes each match as it comes and decides what he's going to do on the hoof. I don't see Flair the strategist like I see Bock the strategist -- which is just one more reason why the "he always has the same match" argument rankles with me so much.

Nevermind Lucha or AWA, just don't diss Sean Mooney man.

I was trying to account for why at least 3 of us had a feeling of Flair's greatness but not of Bock's, my argument was that it comes down to kayfabe presentation. So all in all I'm not displeased with that.

I'm going to accuse him of trolling.

Dylan, a much simpler explanation is that Flair's character had macho pride where Bock's didn't. I don't think either guy is as two dimensional as that but as a rule of thumb, it accounts for the feeling of Flair's greatness, his true colours are wanting to prove he's a better man. Bock's true colours are basically cowardly and villainous.

I think there's such a thing as as the in-kayfabe idea of a great match. And I think the in-kayfabe version of Flair prided himself on them. I'm not sure that the in-kayfabe Bock did. Anyway, I'm going to bed. If it's turned to guys trying to tell me Hawk wasn't a selfish worker, we're not having the discussion I want here. I actively despise him in one of those Flair matches. You can start a Road Warriors thread so I know to stay out of it.

KrisZ, my argument is not that Bock can't get angry or doesn't than different modes. I've said this earlier this evening on DVDR: It's that when he's doing his bitch champ matches he doesn't come off with the feeling of greatness (as Flair mostly did), and maybe doesn't give off the feeling of greatness period (as Flair definitely did). That's not to say he wasn't great.

I'm not sure it's the best example KrisZ: Flair gets a butterfly suplex in, several big chops, an elbow drop, a knee drop and a submission win with the figure-four in less than 5 minutes. Bock gets all of two knee lifts vs. Rheingans in 12 minutes and less than that in the same vs. Martel. I understand the argument about building a challenger. And I even concede the argument that Flair may have matches that are equivalent out there somewhere (though neither the Youngblood nor Rogers examples are quite as extreme as the two Bock examples). What I maintain is that Flair retains a feeling of greatness, whereas Bock for various reasons doesn't. I'm talking about greatness in kayfabe terms (see post above). EDIT: And Johnny, you'll never sell me on Hawk, I think he's a real-life dickhead who doesn't actually understand a loss in wrestling doesn't make you a loser.

Here's what I think Dylan. You are right that Flair has matches where he comes off second best. But the fans always know he's a world class wrestler, that he could go 60 minutes with Steamboat, or whoever tomorrow and come out with the belt. I think Bock has his version of that too. But I do think there's a fundamental difference between Bock and Flair. I've argued before that Flair isn't really a chickenshit, he's mainly just pretending to be one. I've argued that under it all he's an athlete and a psycho. I think Bock IS actually a chickenshit and more than that he's a conniving, sneaky villain who revels in conniving, sneaky villainy. This is just a theory right now, I need to see more of him in 84 and 85 to back it up, but it feels like deep down Flair wants to have a prove he's the man by having a great match and deep down Bock wants to escape with the title. (talking in kayfabe terms here) Now because Flair's character is a guy who ... deep down ... is a great athelete who wants to prove he's the best that kinda shines through and gives you a feeling of greatness. Because Bock's character is a guy who ... deep down ... is cynically playing the rules to his advantage and actually doesn't care about proving he's better, he just wants to be champion ... he doesn't quite give you that feeling of greatness. He has no macho pride like Flair does, he's actually really happy with a cheap win or retaining on a technicality. I could be wrong on that, but it's the feeling I get. And it may well be the root cause of why myself, WrestlingPower and Clayton Jones all feel that way. IF that is the case, then it's nothing to hold against him either. It's just that his character isn't Flair's.

I just watched that and Flair definitely gets more in that match than in the Bock examples. I'm NOT saying that Flair doesn't get his ass kicked a lot, it's Flair that's his MO. I'm just saying he comes away from the matches with a feeling that he is actually a great wrestler whereas I haven't always felt that watching these Bock matches. I'm not the only one: http://board.deathvalleydriver.com/topic/5...n/#entry1547366 Clayton Jones also has the exact same thought two posts down. I don't fully agree with WrestlingPower, because I think he takes it too far. I'm limiting it to instances where he's doing his version of the Flair title match. What I will say though, in fairness, is that this seems to be an AWA thing as much as a Bock thing. ALL of the heels have been quite weak looking so far, including Blackwell and he's 400+lbs. Many matches have had very long shine sequences for faces and truncated stretch sequences for the heels. Some of them -- the VERNE tag match, for example -- don't even have a proper stretch sequence. That's booking style. NWA style usually gives the heel a decent control segment. With Flair this often comes late in the day, but it's there. You'll see from my recent posts over on DVDR that I'm far from being down on Bock, I just don't like champs coming off as weak as he does sometimes. I know you basically see the mirror image of how I see the comparison with Flair, but we may have to agree to disagree on it.

True actually. Blocked them from memory because I fucking hate Hawk. I can't wait for the Road Warriors to bugger off up north truth be told. EDIT: I would say though, that Hawk and Luger (and Hogan) are all supermen who you would expect to dominate against a Bockwinkel or a Flair. I don't think that's true of Martel or Brad Rhenniganns. And I don't think there's an equivalent of Flair getting dominated by a Rick Martel.