JerryvonKramer

Surely Lawler and Funk and maybe Hansen and Jumbo have bigger bodies of work, no?

I would like to see analyses of the following for GOAT consideration: Michaels vs Flair Michaels vs Funk Michaels vs Hansen Michaels vs Lawler Michaels vs Savage Michaels vs Steamboat Michaels vs Windham Michaels vs Dundee Michaels vs Rose Michaels vs Vader Michaels vs Bockwinkel Michales vs Race Michaels vs Brisco Michaels vs Hart Michaels vs Rey Michaels vs Jumbo Michaels vs Tenryu Michaels vs Choshu Michaels vs Fujinami Michaels vs Kawada Michaels vs Misawa Michaels vs Kobashi Michaels vs Muta Michaels vs Liger Michaels vs Inoki There are 25 GOAT contenders from the US and Japan. I'm interested to see how people "score" Michaels after comparing him to each one.

Just re-reading this and I feel I derailed things a little bit with my Kane/ Godfather analogy, and this from Matt D was cruelly no-sold at the time. But something has been irritating me for some time now. When, why and how did Shawn Michaels start being talked about in GOAT terms by "current fans"? Like at what point in his career was Shawn ever considered the best wrestler in the world? Was there ever a point? It's one of the little thing that ... wait for it ... gets my goat. Seriously though, the WWE consistently push some sort of myth of Michaels being the greatest ever. Why? How? Is it just because he's sort of always been there? There's something I'm missing here, because while I'll accept he's good, I don't even seen HBK as part of the conversation. If you are doing your all-time GOAT list are any Shawn matches in the top 10? If so, which ones?

Didn't JCP end up with a "split crew" after buying out Watts? One HQ in Charlotte and one in Dallas? That almost illustrates my point in a way. Look how far Dallas is from Charlotte and they still had USWA / CWA / WCCW stuck in between their major territories. Just must have been a logistical nightmare. Looking at that what Dylan and jdw are saying about Verne makes a lot of sense. But there are a lot of kinda "nothing" states between the core AWA territory and Denver and then the West Coast. The Dakotas, Nebraska, Montana, Wyoming ... are any of these important wrestling hotbeds? Do they even have decent potential markets outside of maybe cattle markets? What about Utah? In any case, Chicago to Denver is one HELL of a commute. How does Verne break into Denver in the first place before he's able to set up a second base there? Arizona and New Mexico interest me. Who ran Albuquerque and Phoenix traditionally? This is a pretty interesting site: http://legacyofwrestling.com/OtherTerritories.html but it seems to stop in the mid-1960s. Who was running Albuquerque in the 70s and early 80s? I'm assuming it was McGuirk / Watts country -- Dick Murdoch lost the Mid-South title to Jerry Oates in Albuquerque in August 1977. By 86, VERNE was running shows there (on a show in Jan, Jimmy Garvin and Steve Regal lost the tag titles to Scott Hall and Curt Hennig) By the early 90s, it's naturally part of Vince's circuit. But really, it seems like "no man's land". Feels to me like historically there SHOULD have been some West Coast powerhouse based in LA with AZ and NM and maybe NV as key markets. Really weird that there was never such a territory.

Just been catching up on the recent Flair saga and in a way I'm sort of happy for him IF: 1. He does the sensible thing, signs a nice cushy little package at WWE, say an enhanced Legends contract with an on-air role as Ziggler's manager or whatever. 2. He never wrestles again. 3. Starts saving a little bit of money now. The WWE seem to be there for him if he needs them, because he's the legend of all legends. They are happy to pay what is for them peanuts to preserve that legacy. Come on Ric, just grow up a LITTLE bit for all of us and do the right thing. NB. I think the court case is meaningless. TNA will lose that. Also, after seeing what Scott Steiner was on (shockingly low pay), I'm wondering what they were paying Flair.

- YES, Starrcade music video!!! They should have used this music for Warrior when he turned up in 98. - Tony Schiavone was 28 in 1985, so I'm wondering if that outrageous tache was a bid to make him look more like 35. Anyway, he's interviewing referee Tommy Young, unusual to see a ref give an explaination. Now if this was WWF, this would have been a grave, solemn announcement from Jack Tunney with Vince or Gorilla going nuts. Here, the goody-two-shoes Schiavone is all like "oh fair enough, it was the right call Mr. Young". These sorts of things make me happy. Gotta love Flair's promo too "Tommy Young showed alotta class". Ha ha - Ole: "Fantasy is when you're Dusty Rhodes thinkin' you've won the world title, reality is a broken leg". - Billy Jack Haynes was so fucking jacked in 85. If you're Magnum TA and you're going up against Tully and the Wrecking Crew, do you really pick Sam Houston as your second partner? Anyway, Magnum looks a million bucks in the shine segment. Ole is such a rough, tough son of a bitch beating on Houston, awesome. I'm not buying the idea that Ole never sold for anyone either. I've just seen him take 5 right hands from Houston here and he even did the "confused in the wrong corner" spot. The idea Ole never sold is BS I'm saying. Haynes is legit built like someone out of a computer game - like Hagger from Final Fight or Zangief as seen in Street Fighter Alpha 3, he was just massive. Three Gorilla press slams is overkill for me (Ole sold one of those too), think Haynes generally hurts this match. I like the general story though: two meatheads and more-stupid-than-brave Houston against three smart heels. Tully was the MVP here though, everything he did very well both selling and offence. FiP segment on Magnum was pretty great, but he makes the mistake of making the hot tag to Houston rather than powerhouse Haynes, obviously from that moment the faces are losing this one. Regardless, really good 6-man tag for a random TV match. - Dusty surprisingly isn't that pissed off and takes Tommy Young's decision quite well. Can you imagine how much Hogan would have bitched and moaned about this? "I'll live with it" says the Dream. Wow. He knows he can pin Flair and says he'll just do it again. - Denny Brown, the "world'sjunior heavyweight champion" and some jobber (Ron Rossi) take on the MWC. Dusty and Magnum come out for commentary and Arn is pissed about that. Dusty immediately buries Rossi as an inadequate partner for Brown. Quite funny, Magnum and Dusty spend the entire match talking about how shit Rossi is. lol. Awesome gourbuster from Arn to finish. Rossi was the jobber's jobber wasn't he -- a guy who had zero offence, "the most jobber". - Now Rocky King, he was more at SD Jones or even Koko B. Ware level jobber. Rocky King would definitely kick Ron Rossi's ass if they had a match. Nice stalling vertical suplex from Flair, King seems to submit even before he's in the figure four. - Flair: "I've been known as a big spender". Ron Garvin is here and he challenges Ric to a match. Pumped, should be good. - Another jobber match now as Arn takes on Josh Stroud. David Crockett seems somewhat taken with Stroud's arms as he says "look at the arms on this guy" at least 8 times during this match. Stroud probably a contender for worst worker ever. - Dusty's wardrobe has taken a noticable nosedive here. Contender for worst dressed man of December 1985. Awful sweaters, awful baseball caps, awful leather jacket. There were probably legit truckers from Texas who dressed better than this man. - Magnum trades Haynes and Houston for Dusty and Manny Fernandez while the MWC trade Tully for Flair in another 6 man. David Crockett is such a ridiculous mark for this product that it's actually quite infectious. Awesome fast-paced start here with Arn and Manny. "This is great", says David, "you can't beat it anywhere". Extended babyface shine segment and David is losing his shit. Don't know whether I love him or hate him. Richmond, VA crowd is very hot for this - looks full too, maybe 10,000? Just for my own understanding here: was it that World Championship Wrestling came from the WTBS Studios in Atlanta and Worldwide and MACW / Pro came from tapings at houseshows? Face shine section is very long here, at least 7 minutes before the heels can turn it around. Arn's got a chair, lol "HE WAFFLED HIM! HE WAFFLED HIM!" ha ha ha - Flair is big on this "don't put that camera on these women, keep it on me" line around this time, he's used it in each of his past 4 intereviews. Weird thing is that the camera never moves. He seems convinced that the cameras are switching all the time, but they stay on him. - Magnum vs. Ole is a really good, beefy stiff match. A huge amount of strikes. I like this alot. Ole's slightly delayed elbow drop is great. Much, much better match than I'd have ever expected. - Still saying Jim Crockett Jr. has the least charisma of any person to appear on wrestling TV ever, including like shitty one-shot celebrities. Just a charisma vacuum. - Flair vs Garvin now and the Man with the Hands of Stone is rocking a fantastically mid-80s mullet, arguably the worst hair on the set so far. Garvin is awesomely stiff here. Great heated stuff, Garvin and Flair have great chemistry. Schmoz finish to be expected. Garvin was on fucking fire here, changing my mind about him. - JJ Dillion is making gestures towards managing Tully now, dun dun dun ...

See, if someone could have taken Cali, surely there are benefits to having LA and Hollywood in particular closeby, no? Just think of all the ad agencies and washed-up TV and movie stars there. Think of how easily they could have plugged in with big national promotional campaigns. I'm convinced being based in Charlotte hurt Crockett and being based in Atlanta hurt WCW in the longrun.

To be honest, I see no point in continuing this.

I'm not talking about charisma and showmanship either. Savage is a legit top 5 or 10 worker ever ever ever based on in-ring ability. I can't think of any metric aside from maybe jumping off ladders or having a big chin where Edge is better than him.

If I did a list of my top 250 wrestlers based on "wrestling ability and talent", I reckon RVD wouldn't feature. By your logic Jean Claude Van Damme should be a great wrestler. Probably 70% of what makes someone great is what goes on in their brain. That's why someone like Terry Funk in his mid-late-40s was so much better than RVD ever was or could be. Ditto Savage. It's not just the ability to do things physically, it's knowing what to do. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, of course, but RVD is properly crap in my book. I may even see if I could get to 250 guys I legitimately rate above him.

Did Tony and Heenan ever do any work together in 89?

I think if you look at WCW live show figures and PPV rates, the answer is "yes". There's a big difference between driving from NY to Philly and selling out 5,000-10,000 arenas on the way and driving between Houston, Oklahoma City, The Mid-South Collusieum and The Omni drawing houses of 1,000-2,000 on the way. I mean which of those is more commercially viable just from a logistical point of view. BUT, it's not just that. Why do most major corporations have their HQs in New York and London and not in, say, Nashville or (unless you're Coca Cola) Atlanta? Do you think Vince would have been able to be so great at marketing, at booking celebrities and at co-promotional deals if he was based in Red Belt, USA? I don't buy this "if you've got TV you can be based anywhere" line.

We've argued about this before, but to me he looks out of breath after about the 10 minute mark around that time. That said, he has roughly the same bodytype and shape as Jumbo, who never really looks blown up, so maybe it was just me.

It's been a few years now and my wrestling palette may have changed. Guessing this match is on the 94 Yearbook.

Was considering making a new thread, but this one will do. Once upon a time, I made a long post and an interesting thread followed, about the importance of the WWF's location in the Tri-state area to its success. Here's a question: Other than New York and that region, where else could a globally successful wrestling promotion viably be based? I do think that one of the things NWA / WCW always had against it was geography and local demographics. Where else are there enough people to pack out a place like MSG every month? I'm thinking either California or ... London. Seriously, where else is there?

I'm not having a go, just that the thinking behind that list is so alien to me that I had to assume in the first instance he was joking. I'd go something like this for ability: 1. Flair 2. Savage 3. Michaels 4. Hart 5. Slaughter And something like this for reign(s): 1. Hogan 2. Sammartino 3. Austin 4. Rock 5. Backlund

Oh no doubting that. That suplex into a pin thing he does is one of the smoothest moves by anyone ever. As I work through Will's awesome Horseman set I'm really looking forward to seeing some more peak Windham, especially the much raved about Flair matches. But the other thing to remember about Windham in 92 going long is that he was injured - you can't expect a guy to go 30 minutes+ with a taped hand, am I right?

Yeah but he was fat and easily blown up at that point too. Watch some of the matches when he had the NWA belt in 93. I see Windham as a guy who always struggled with his fitness and weight.

You think Triple H is better than Hogan? You think Angle is better than Savage? You think RVD is better than Austin? EDIT: Don't take this the wrong way, but the more I look at that list, the more I think you're trolling or something. You really think Orton is a better worker than Savage? Why is Edge at 11 or even on the list at all? There are lots of things I can't get my head around there.

Main problem for me is that you'll have a 15 minute match that never progresses beyond matwork and the occassional European uppercut. Smart matwork is fine, and Regal was better than most, but for me in a 15-minute match I want some sort of progression: First 5-6 minutes: matwork 7-10 minutes: progression to strikes 10+ minutes: suplexes, piledrivers, high spots That's my main problem, the matches never seem to break out of 2nd gear. As a fan, I always kind of feel hard-done by if I sit through a 15-minute time-limit draw and no one has even busted out a suplex. The Daveyboy match is great because of the chain sequences and great counter wrestling, but the stuff with Steamboat for example is just boring to me. Steamboat was having great matches in 94, so the blame has to lie with Regal. I know people rate the Arn match but I was disappointed by that too. Depends what you're looking for I guess.

Am I the only one who really doesn't rate Regal in that first WCW run? So many "dream matches" he had during that time and none of them are that good. The Steamboat match blows, the Arn match isn't that good, the Rhodes, Pillman and Austin matches aren't good, the Zbyszko match sucks. Probably his best match from that period was with Bulldog.

Any particular reason for omitting Flair?

Heart breaking

Yeah, Clash 17 is what I mean, was on my phone. I went for Flair vs. Vader because of the sheer emotion and the build for that match. One of the few times WCW played and executed an angle perfectly. Also one of only 4 occassions I've had tears watching a wrestling match. Really though, if you treat the NWA title as a separate belt, what competition does it have outside of Sting / Vader? Flair / Steamboat from 94 (the Saturday Night rematch not the Spring Stampede one)? Flair / Hogan from Bash at the Beach '94? DDP vs. Sting from 99? The WCW Title picture is pretty shitty after 94.

Honest to God, whenever the subject of worst ever world champs comes up, Koloff is mentioned. The other context I've seen him mentioned is when people are arguing that before the 80s the WF World Title was a bit of a joke belt with nothing of the prestige or lineage of the NWA title and Koloff is pointed to as an example of how the belt wasn't that important. I haven't just made this up.