JerryvonKramer

It means when you talk about guys like Flair, Funk, Jumbo, etc as “boring” picks because they came high in previous polls or because you’ve been there and done it and are more excited by shiny new things.

Been a while since I watched 70s Jumbo (and it was usually tags, can’t recall singles ones off the top of my head outside of the Billy Robinson matches), but I’m fairly sure the template he was going for was Dory vs Jack Brisco style. It might be an interesting exercise to compare transitions in typical Dory or Brisco matches to transitions in 70s Jumbo matches. The more I think about it, the more he was essentially a US NWA-style worker who happened to be Japanese. I don’t recall any nifty matwork from him and it doesn’t seem like he picked up much on this front from Robinson.

If you're anything like me, the AJPW single title scene prior to the Triple Crown is kind of a blur and I've been trying to get it clear in my head. Here's a little table I made to help see who held which title when at a glance. Now some notes: The International Title prior to 1981 wasn't actually in the company but was largely defended in South Korea by Ohki. This belt had tremendous prestige because it was the title for which Rikidōzan had defeated Lou Thesz in 1958. So the story goes, the NWA International Title was used by Thesz as an excuse to go skiing in Europe. He'd drop the NWA title before leaving, then defend the International title to pay for his vacation and then pick up the World title in a return match when he got back to the USA. When the NWA ordered Ohki to give the title back to AJPW, Dory won it in a tournament in which he faced Terry in the final (I believe this is their long 1981 match). From there, it gradually became the top title and by the time Jumbo won it in 1983 this was the number 1 belt. The PWF title was created after Baba won a series of 10 matches. It was the number 1 title for the 1970 and as you can see remained Baba's belt for most of the decade all the way until 1985. I am a little unclear about the status and prestige of the belt from 1985 to 1989 when it was chiefly held by Hansen with spells by Choshu and Tenryu. The UN title was very clearly the number 2 title, similar to the WWF IC belt or the US title in WCW. Jumbo just vacated the title in 1984 to focus on defending the International belt and DiBiase won it in a tournament defeating Tenryu in the final. The status of this title from 1985 onwards, during the period in which it was chiefly held by Tenryu is unclear to me. It's obviously the number 3 belt by this point, but was it a number 3 belt more like the TV title in JCP / WCW (i.e. a competitive and somewhat respected belt) or more like the European belt when it was established in WWF (i.e. a "nothing" belt)? Looking at the way cards were booked after 1985, Jumbo has relatively few title defences every year. In 1987, for example, he has almost exclusively tag matches for the whole year defending the belt only four times the whole year. Incidentally those title defences were: 4/2/87: Tommy Rich 4/24/87: Yatsu 7/22/87: Hansen 9/12/87: Bockwinkel This was massively reduced from the number of defences Dory had in 1981, where he seemed to treat it more like the NWA World title and took it to the USA for stints also. By 1985 we are down to just three defences in the year. PWF title meanwhile was defended 7 times in 1987. Choshu had one defence against Curt Hennig before leaving for New Japan, then Hansen won a tournament defeating Wajima in the final. Defences against: Yatsu, Tenryu, Wajima. Incidentally, Baba did not defend this belt much in certain years. For example in 1980 and 1984 he defended it only 3 times. There does not seem to be more than 7 title defences in any given year. The UN title, incidentally, was defended only twice by Tenryu that year vs. Hansen and Yatsu. This is massively down from the 8-10 times a year Jumbo would defend this belt against all comers in the early 1980s. By 1985, Tenryu is already down to just the 2-3 defences a year. So each of the belts that formed the triple crown were not defended that regularly. AJPW focused heavily on tag wrestling and tournaments, so the title matches are few and far between. Still interesting to think about the relative prestige of the titles at any particular time.

If it is to everyone's disappointment, then I won't take part. Simple as that. I am not bashing it though, it's just a reality given the ages of people taking part and the more de-centralised nature of the project this time round that it is going to tend towards a certain type of list. Do you think Rick Martel has a shot of finishing at 43 this time round? I strongly doubt we'll be seeing workers like that in the top 100.

I will be much less invested in the actual finished rankings this time, the injection of youth and ribald hipsterism will almost certainly mean that some IWC indie darling will finish top in 2026, and that can't be helped. But the flipside of that is that any attempt at even the pretense of objectivity will be dropped from my end and I will focus on getting the 100 that "feels right", which may well mean jettisoning all modern computer-generated video game workers from orbit. I'd also much rather try to see Bryan runs in context than watching his greatest hits matches. That said looking at 2016 now, I feel like several 80s guys look too high on the final listings. Rick Rude at 77 and Curt Hennig at 55 both stand out to me. Maybe it's just my memory but these guys seem like they positively coasted into the top 100 compared to most others in the list who had extremely extended analysis.

A part of Jumbo's case for me -- which seems overlooked in general -- is the fact he came in pretty much from his debut as Baba's #2 and has a metric ton of amazing matches in the 1970s working a completely different style from the sped-up post-Choshu Texan slobber-knocker King's Road style for which he's generally known in that late 80s, early 90s period. And yet WITHIN that 70s Japanese style with its 45-minute tag matches and extended mat sequences, Jumbo is still a very American-style worker from the off, and works many more suplex variations than the style generally allowed for at the time. I think he used all of the Funks' suplexes, all of Billy Robinson's, the back backdrop suplex I'm not sure if he innovated. And somehow did all this while never overshadowing the clear stars of the territory in that period Baba and the Funks. I noticed Jumbo finished as number 1 in the 2006 GWE poll and I'm wondering if that is because there were a lot of voters back then who had deep-dived 70s AJPW? Anyone know? To me, Jumbo's case has to rest on the fact that he somehow managed to remain awesome across three distinct periods, the Baba-led 70s promotion, the period where he was transitioned to being ace in the early 80s -- which is a bit more NWA-style in a way, for some reason -- and then the amazing late 80s into early 90s streak when he becomes the grumpy badass everyone loves. I feel like many might be tempted to discount the earlier stuff, but for my money AJPW was the premier wrestling promotion in the world from about 1973 to 1983 -- anyone who was anyone worked there, every style, every type of worker, and Jumbo worked them all right at their peaks. In many ways that era of AJPW could be seen as "the champion's league" of wrestling. I may also spend more time championing Baba, who should be the "ultimate Matt D worker" -- where did you rank him last time Matt? I can't seem to find my actual submission, and unless Grimmas still has it, we may have to consider it lost.

One thing that struck me looking at RWTL results into the 2000s was the dramatic drop off in Gaijin talent. Compare the names from the 70s and early 80s and then look who’s coming in during the 2000s. From Race, Bockwinkel, Abby, Sheik, Dibiase, Funks etc to literally Mike Rotunda winning the RWTL in 2000!! Aside from the Dudley Boys coming in for 2006, there’s a chronic lack of Gaijin star power in AJPW and looking over NOAH cards it seems there were even fewer Gaijin stars there for the decade.

Looking over the 2016 list, I’m sad Jumbo finished outside the top 10. I might devote my efforts this time to influencing younger voters on the awesomeness of Jumbo: arguably the only worker to spend the entirety of his career in elite tier and as a top worker within his company.

I’m not saying one would rank Wahoo based on those matches, I’m saying that we’ve all seen enough Wahoo not to doubt the rep of those matches. Whereas I think most of us doubt the Ray Stevens rep.

Yeah I agree with much of that. I am not saying footage doesn’t matter period: in the case of Stevens we have virtually nothing and the goods aren’t there in what we do have. But how much more Wahoo do you really need to see to understand what he was about? Does anyone doubt that Wahoo vs Johnny Valentine was great even if we never see more than the ten minute clip? We don’t have enough to go on to rank Johnny Valentine but we’ve got enough Wahoo if that makes any sense.

I’ve been reflecting on the last GWE and thinking about whether I’ll take part this time. I think I might go the polar opposite way from doing a BIGLAV-style system and instead go with more egregiously personal list. But also been reflecting on the importance and emphasis we gave to footage in 2016, given what some people have been saying about The Destroyer. There are cases in which we basically know everything guys can do but are missing a key chunk of their peak career due to footage. Two examples I’ll give are Wahoo McDaniel and Ivan Koloff. We know everything they can do and have seen enough of them to know what sorts of matches they would have had but don’t actually have those matches. I feel more fine about ranking guys based on a composite idea of what they could do. I actually came to this thought after seeing Stan Hansen vs Yatsu from 1988 which recently popped up. I’ve seen tons of Hansen and tons of Yatsu. I know everything those two guys could do. Hansen and Yatsu had exactly the sort of match I expected them to have. If I’d never seen that match, my idea of what it would have been like could have easily substituted for actually seeing it. I hope this doesn’t sound too insane. I just wonder if, beyond a certain point, you don’t need any more footage. When you know a guy, their standard spots, their little tricks and so on, you know them. I have also become more lukewarm about the idea of star ratings and Great Matches being a key and heavily weighted metric. If I do footage watching this time, my focus won’t be on matches but on contexts.

Just think, Super 8 himself might have shot this footage.

I remember Bill Watts talking about it in one of his old shoots, I think he was talking about differences between a guy like JYD and a guy like Ted DiBiase. Something along the lines of you need the star heel to make the match, to give you the experience, memories, etc. etc., but you need the charismatic babyface to talk the people into the building in the first place. Kind of interesting, what's going through the mind of the fan at the moment of purchase vs. what they actually enjoy when they are at the show. Seems to me the drawing babyface gives you the former while the star heel gives you the latter. With Flair, however, he was SO charismatic that I could see a case that he was a legit draw in his own right even as a heel, since he had that "cool factor". Certainly 1985 Flair vs. Dusty seems like a draw to me, but these cases are quite rare. Seems to me that fans around Mid-Atlantic / Georgia area were looking for excuses to cheer for Flair as early as 1980. Hence why it was always so easy to make him a babyface like in 1983 and 1993.

This is a pretty interesting deal if guys were branded "AJPW" or "NJPW" basically for life, it was like they'd signed a feudal pact.

This is fascinating. Choshu cut a semi-shoot promo in 1985?

Seeing how positively and professionally he responded to being forced to retire makes his death all the more tragic. Jumbo seemed like he'd got everything together

What was the crisis? Also, what were the circumstances behind Misawa tagging with Akiyama rather than Kobashi and of all people why did Kobashi pick the Patriot as his new partner? Finally, why did Terry stop coming to the tournament while Dory kept going into the 90s with different partners?

Andre is a very special case who had a fifteen year undefeated streak plus a massive heel turn plus the fact he was Andre plus the fact that hot Hogan was his opponent.

Obviously I love Flair, but to what extent was he a genuine draw as a heel? Famously, Vince dropped the Hogan vs Flair money feud because it wasn’t drawing. As NWA Champ he came in against the top local star everywhere, was the gate on him or on the opponent? Did he outdraw Dory, Brisco, Terry or Race doing the same role? Then during his Mid-Atlantic runs when was he running as babyface / tweener Flair on top (a la Starrcade 83) and when as an out and out heel? How did Rock or Austin draw as heels as compared with their face runs?

Sheik burnt out Detroit. Graham had a “special reign” as noted above. George and Rogers perhaps benefited from being the first TV stars, but we would also have to look at how they were booked and who were their challengers.

Is there really such a thing as a heel draw?

That's awesome. I recently bought a set of all the Real World Tag Leagues from 1977 to 1996 with a plan of watching them in order. I think I will likely track down footage 1997 to 2000 just for completeness. Even though I've seen many of these matches before, I have never seen them "in context" so to speak. I also love the fun of some of the complete randomness and combinations. For example, what the hell sort of match is this! Tiger Mask II & Jimmy Snuka vs. Dick Slater & Tommy Rich (12/10/88) Why does Bossman turn up in 1993? Even if many of the matches suck, I am hoping it will be fun.

Every single Conrad produced show would be improved if Conrad was removed. I watched the one which reunited David Crockett and Schiavone. Conrad is a ridiculously unwelcome presence.

I've always liked some of the continuities and traditions on the RWTL. So I've put together this spreadsheet. I've only included 2000 to show that Tenryu comes back after the exodus. Now some fun stats: Tournament appearances (to 2000): Total tournaments: 24 Baba: 19 Dory: 16 Hansen: 18 Jumbo: 15 Misawa: 13 Kawada: 12 Abdullah: 12 Ace: 11 Tenryu: 10 Taue: 10 Kobashi: 10 Most tournaments won as same team: Funks: 3 Misawa and Kobashi: 3 Most tournaments won (singles): Jumbo: 5 (2 with Baba, 2 with Tenryu, 1 with Yatsu) Kobashi: 5 (3 with Misawa, 2 with Akiyama) Hansen: 4 (1 with Brody, 1 with DiBiase, 1 with Gordy, 1 with Tenryu) Misawa: 4 (3 with Kobashi, 1 with Kawada) - also streak for most tournaments won in a row: 4 Most different partners: Hansen: 12 Baba: 9 Ace: 8 Misawa: 7 Dory: 6 Tenryu: 6 Most appearances as same team: Funks: 10 Baba and Jumbo: 6 Kawada and Taue: 6 Biggest gap between appearances: Ternryu: 11 years (1989-2000) Kimura: 7 years (1977-1984) Abdullah: 7 years (1980-1987) - Abdullah would beat this when he appeared in the 2007 tournament 13 years after his last appearance in 1995. Slater: 6 years (1982-1988) Snuka: 6 years (1981-1987) One thing I'd love to know is if there was an in-story reasoning given for the various teams and short-term alliances made. Why did Baba tag with Hansen in 93-4 for example? What was the reason that Jumbo started tagging with Yatsu? What triggered Hansen to tag with Vader? etc. etc.

Was Scott necessarily wrong to push singles over tag? The old Crockett territory was not seen as being as much of a major deal as Mid-Atlantic would be after he’d built it up. Outside of All Japan I can’t really think of a successful promotion that regularly pushed tags on top. And even in AJPW the top tag guys were also top singles guys. On the specific example of the Midnight Express though, I am convinced that their overall importance as draws or anything else is greatly exaggerated by two factors 1. How much we all love Bobby Eaton and 2. Many many years of Jim Cornette being one of the most prominent and outspoken voices in the IWC. I am greatly sceptical that there were that many fans who specifically bought a ticket to see Jim Cornette get his come uppence or to see Condrey and Eaton. It strikes me as implausible that that act was a draw in and of itself. I’d be happy to be proved wrong on this if anyone could point to specific gates. Seems to me most of the Mid-South gates Corny would point to were drawn by Magnum TA, Wrestling 2 or JYD. Even Rock n Rolls vs Midnights in 84 was a semi-main propped up by Magnum TA vs Ernie Ladd in the main. All of which is to say that Cornette would have had a hard time selling the Midnights as draws to George Scott in 1989.