JerryvonKramer

If anyone ever does, the only matches I'd seek out are against the Steiners and against the Beverley Brothers in 1993 (it's on an early Raw and a super rare heel vs. heel match). Aside from those, Money Inc were saddled with the Nasty Boys and the Natural Disasters for much of 1992 and even Bushwackers -- the tag division of that period is absolutely putrid and for whatever reason most of the Road Warriors matches happened on untaped house shows, including title switches. Rotunda is also extra-specially chinlock-y as IRS for some reason. People may even be better off seeking out pre-Money Inc DiBiase and IRS teamups from around the time of This Tuesday in Texas in 1991. I seem to remember a half-decent Bret Hart and Virgil match from an old Sean Mooney-fronted coliseum home video, and possibly a random High Energy (Owen Hart and Koko Ware) match or two from Superstars. Maybe there's is one or two Tito and Virgil matches also. If I have a criticism of the entire Money Inc run it is that they were booked not only as chickenshit heels but as superduper chickenshit heels in the Honkytonk Man vain. There's a match from a SNME against Savage and Warrior where it's not even believable Money Inc would be in with a chance of beating the babyface team. This is why using them as Hogan's comeback feud in 93 is somewhat strange given that it had already been established that they were the most weasel of all weasel teams. Honestly, I think they were booked weaker than any tag champions in WWF history. They'd even have to cheat or take a DQ against lower card teams like Bushwackers or High Energy most of the time.

Has anyone ever done an in-depth Yatsu vs. Kurt Angle comparison? I'd be interested to see that.

I'm about to see a shed load of him in the AJPW Real World tag leagues so will mention if I think he's worth it. Seems perennially to be in that mid-card tag team role and then later in the comedy spot. Not sure how much IWA-era footage of him there is.

I thought this might be a handy comparison chart for the top 25. Key: Blue: Top 25 in 2006 and dropped out of it in 2016. Gold: New entry into top 25 in 2016. Yellow: Top 25 in both 2006 and 2016 but went UP in 2016. Orange: Top 25 in both 2006 and 2016 but went DOWN in 2016. One interesting question is if any of the blue names have a shot at re-entering in 2026. Or do any of the orange fallers have a shot at rising back up? I feel like Jumbo may have a shot at re-entering top 10 with the amount of AJPW footage that seems to be cropping back up. Another interesting question is who is the most vulnerable at dropping out of the top 25 this time. Of those names in yellow, it's hard to see any of them dropping out completely possibly with the exception of Vader. Apart from Bryan, I'd say *every* gold name is at risk, chiefly because I see reflected in those names particular pushes from prominent PWOers in 2016. Will pushed Lawler. Matt D pushed Bock. Ricky Jackson pushed Savage, etc. Quite easy to see Arn dropping back down to 30s if there are fewer 80s NWA fans, etc. Also, just a fun bit of trivia: Taue finished at 26 in both 2006 and 2016.

Has anyone nominated Horst Hoffman?

Some interesting points raised. I do agree that it’s an evolution of the character. I would not agree that Flair settles into just being heel Flair after 1985/6 but he does transition into ultimate form. Before then, the “four faces” (as I call them) are each distinct characters whereas after that they are just different aspects of the same composite character that can be dialled up and down. You can see this most in 1989 and especially the Steamboat matches where we see shades of all the prior Rics all rolled into one over the course of the feud. 1991-3 WWF Flair is obviously more heelish, 1993 WCW Flair is more of a throwback to early 80s especially the Vader retirement angle. Then by the time we get to the 1995 Savage feud it’s heel Flair dialled up to 11 (in fact, I’m not sure he was ever more evil or out and out than in that run), then by the time of the NWO era we see the germs of crazy old man Ric which I never really got into before because I see it as a distinct post-peak character. As for him not realising the NWA champ style was no longer necessary by 86: seems to me Flair always worked appropriate to the booking, by which I mean if he was booked to go 45 minutes or an hour he could go, but if it was a ten-minute sprint brawl (e.g. Garvin) then this is what he’d work. For all the talk of Flair Formula, I also think he had about five or six different formulas for longer matches that he could work depending on the opponent. There’s an obvious one for bigger opponents (Sting, Luger, Road Warriors), a more old-school NWA style (see Jumbo matches), competitive technical opponent (Steamboat) ... you can can likely spot others yourself.

Because Flair has so many top tier high profile matches, I wonder to what extent people overlook his week in - week out stuff, standard TV matches, jobber matches and so on? It would be an interesting exercise for someone to look at more mundane Flair: Will’s old horsemen set had many of these matches. There are a few matches (DiBiase 85, Morton spring to mind) where Ric works from on top rather than underneath. I have an old post somewhere called “The Four Faces of Flair” — a small but significant part of his case in my view is how he adapts to those situations where he has advantage. His case does not just rest on quantity but on the qualitative nuances as he adapts to different situations: the way he works on top as a heel differs from as babyface; his *character* transitions especially as a heel within matches are very interesting (chicken taking a beating vs evil desperate bastard on top in one version; but there are other versions). The qualitative part of the Flair case is that he is multilayered in a way I don’t believe, say, Hansen is because Hansen is always just Hansen. Hansen is awesome but he’s also one note: Flair I believe has many different notes in his character work: one of the reasons the Steamboat matches are so highly rated is because we get almost every type of Ric over the course of those matches. I believe that only Terry Funk compares on this sort of metric of having “many different sides”. It would be interesting to tease out the many faces of Funk too. Alright I’ve said enough about this man to last a lifetime.

I have a vague plan to watch the Real-world Tag Leagues in order (and as completely as possible) in the coming weeks and months, somewhat unrelated to GWE, but at least you may have someone else watching this stuff with you. I made a start with the 1977 tourney last night. My chief memory of Hansen and DiBiase is that they are a very solid team with good but unspectacular matches, but it might look different watching it all in context.

Where are people on these tag matches which I had at either ***** or ****3/4? Terry Funk and Dory Funk Jr vs. Stan Hansen & Terry Gordy (8/31/83) Genichiro Tenryu & Toshiaki Kawada vs. Stan Hansen & Terry Gordy (12/16/88) Jumbo Tsuruta & Kenta Kobashi vs. Genichiro Tenryu & Stan Hansen (7/15/89) Giant Baba & Rusher Kimura vs. Genichiro Tenryu & Stan Hansen (11/29/89) Jumbo Tsuruta & Yoshiaki Yatsu vs. Genichiro Tenryu & Stan Hansen (12/6/89) If you throw in the Inoki one from 5/9/1980 we're on for a list of 25-30 great to all-time level matches.

Where are people on that Leon White match from 1986 these days? I thought it was incredible during AWA set.

I'd be really interested to know if Sato had a different type of contract to Pat Tanaka and Paul Diamond during that whole run. I'm kinda interested in the idea of a booker / lowercard wrestler. Buck Robeley also springs to mind.

I reckon if you watched every single Mike Jackson match on tape you’d have an extremely good idea about what most of the 80s guys could do.

How did Sato go from this to being in a shitty undercard tag team for Vince?

Absolutely fantastic info thanks!

Not sure where to put this but did there ever come a time when Gorilla Monsoon would stop making his "insider baseball" references. For example, he'd usually bring up Mr Perfect's father -- just little things like that.

I read also that Vince Sr handpicked George Scott to come in.

While I am not taking part in GWE this time around, I have been thinking about this of late and there seem to be certain years that mark distinct transition points in the business which seem to occur every ten years or so. I'll just do two: 1972-3 marks the year in which George Scott took over the book in Mid-Atlantic and fostered the Crockett style we would all come to know and love, and we see a general ramping up of workrate from this point onwards in the NWA, Dory dropped the belt to Harley Race (who then dropped it to Brisco), but with Race a fixture in the world title picture for the rest of the 70s, there's a transition from the more straight-laced mat style to the big bumps and suplexes. Over in Japan, 1972-3 is also the year in which JWA folded and NJPW and AJPW really get going and with that the development of both Strong Style and the King's Road Style. 1983-4 is another key transition year, chiefly because this marks both the death of the territories proper (Amarillo gone, LA gone, Shire's San Francisco gone, GCW sold off, Stampede gone, Maple Leaf gone, Nick Gulas territory replaced by Watts's Mid-South, Sam Muchnick already stepped down). The scene is already set for it to be Vince vs. The World and WWF vs. JCP / WCW. Over in Japan, Jumbo takes over as Ace in AJPW around this time and over in NJPW Riki Choshu greatly shook things up by introducinig Ishin Gundan.

Alright done. Toodle pip.

It will be interesting to see where engagement comes from: there are a ton of quite dedicated fans out there but you also have to be prepared for someone like KENTA breaching the top 50. Those guys should be encouraged to take part in my view. like I said, I have zero investment in where anyone places. Looking back on 2016, the journey was a lot better than the destination. In the end it didn’t really seem to matter that Flair was #1 and Jumbo was #11. I still see guys occasionally mention that time I watched Dragon Gate and seemed to like it. The process was all. I want to try to look at guys in context as much as possible. If there was a flaw in approach before it was the tendency to look at a bunch of matches all of the same guy. I think what you’ve been doing with 1989 AJPW is great Matt since that’s closer to how I think it should be done. You’re likely learning more about the guys in that roster than if you just watched a bunch of Hansen greatest hits or whatever.

I mean sure, that's half the fun of it. I think maybe Martel looks kinda high in retrospect and Jumbo dropped too far. But it's a good snapshot of where everyone was. Also, the flipside of what I'm saying is that guys like Jumbo and Flair might be helped rather than hurt since -- again judging by podcasts I've been listening to recently -- the idea of them as GOATs is still gospel in many quarters. I was not trying to have a go at those guys, I like the fact they took the time to put together shows on 70s and 80s AJPW: and they seem to have a certain mystical respect for guys like Jumbo. It's just that y'know, I can't see them getting a Martel or Greg Valentine without a nudge.

This is a ridiculous strawman view of those who champion the old-school. Most of the older stuff discussed certainly predates when I was a fan. But there are some hard facts that are difficult to overlook when it comes to this topic: 1. Kayfabe and crowds. Smart IWC culture had an undeniable (in my view negative) impact on crowds and on the way matches were worked. 2. Impact of WWE taking over all the territories and imposing a hegemonic, bland and corporate vision onto pro wrestling at the same time as Japan was hitting what some have called a "crisis period" -- this took some years to recover from. There were bright spots, some good indies, some people who tried to do things differently. But the diversity and range of different types of workers was without doubt hurt. These aren't small things they are huge things which will forever delineate a pre- and post- era for wrestling. Of course there has been tons of awesome things since 2001, no one would deny this, but I don't think it's possible to claim or even try to impose some sort of parity because they are completely different beasts. It's not based on nostalgia, it's based on these hard and tangible facts which can't be helped. That Daniel Bryan had an awesome career in such conditions is a testament to his greatness.

I would say my example of challenging the received IWC wisdom on a guy like Rick Martel was the heart and soul of what projects like this were about. If the prevailing view now is to clap like a seal for that received wisdom then that's obvious decline in the discourse.

Where did Brody finish last time? I didn't vote for him. One of the guys I've never got. As for DiBiase did his AJPW work have a particularly big rep ever? He's just kinda Hansen's partner for a bit. DiBiase in AJPW is just more of a disappointment if anything, since he's just solid and never really does much that stands out, but then again maybe he was just fitting into the hierarchy? Instinctively, I don't see the Brody vs. Hogan comparison. Seems to me that Hogan > Brody is a no brainer, but might be interesting to think about. I'm going to be seeing a lot more guys like Brody by dint of the way I want to approach footage. For example, I want to watch all the Real World Tag Leagues in order. And then do more things like that. I have limited patience for all this kumbaya "you're awesome no matter what" bollocks, but you already knew that.

There is that 1987 Battle Royale ...

The Martel example was not entirely random, and to be clear my reason for thinking Martel will drop -- possibly out of the 100 altogether -- is not because of the hipsters but rather because of the more open and decentralised nature of the poll this time. I happened to listen to a podcast called The Beginners Guide to Japanese Wrestling discussing 70s and 80s AJPW. The hosts were likely guys in their mid-20s. These were not casual fans, they were fans hardcore enough not only to host a wrestling podcast about Puro but one which saw them actively going back to watch matches from the 70s and 80s. Obviously, their main way in is through current Japan, but still this is not just an average fan. A few of the matches they watched featured Jumbo vs. Rick Martel. Some of their comments about Martel are instructive of what I'm talking about: - These matches were good because Jumbo carried Martel. - Martel was good but not great, a clear step behind the other legends they were watching. - Martel was born to play his model gimmick as a heel - Martel was a bit bland as a babyface These takes are what I'd call "unreconstructed IWC". These guys are hardcore fans but they haven't been schooled by the DVDR crew, spent hours having all their preconceptions challenged by goodhelmet and Phil Schneider and so on. Since the project will be less tied to the board and open to twitter fans, added to the fact that the general voterbase will have more younger voters, it strikes me as inevitable that the view someone like Martel was or even could be a Top 50 of all time greatest worker will slip off. Similar fates seem likely for Greg Valentine, Tito Santana, and possibly even Jerry Lawler depending on the concentration of "unreconstructed IWC" in the voter base. Maybe I'm wrong and 2026 will surprise me ...