JerryvonKramer

Yeah totally agree with this and have said it many times. Also agree with where Loss is going with his last post.

And if I was especially tetchy in this thread it is because I went in and gave a bunch of these matches some pretty positive reviews and then OJ went in and gave them lukewarm ones. It's something I don't recall seeing basically anywhere else on the board. I am cool with OJ and have no beef, but that did make me slightly irritable to say the least.

I do not recall saying at any stage that Hase was a discovery. What I said is that I doubt he's going to get that many votes.

I guess it really depends on who these 70+ voters are.

Tim's #43: Tim's #25 Steven's #18 Steven's #5 Once we got into the top 15, I felt that's where we got the most separation from the lists Chad and I did on WTBBP. You both fell into a certain party line on most of the major issues and debates, and in most cases were on the other side of them to both of us. But that's all cool. You guys did remarkably well to get through almost six hours. I listened un-interrupted for the entire duration. And this is undoubtedly the best ever episode of Pro Wrestling Supershow, even if there were moments that I found painful or else entirely unconvincing. There were also many many more things said with which I agreed. Tim also needs some sort of award for enthusiasm because his energy didn't drop or waiver at any stage.

I think the reality is that very few outside of the yearbook watchers and me will be ranking him or even considering him really. We'll see, but that's my prediction.

You rank Shawn above Flair for that?

Vs Windham and Luger?

Yeah now you mention it, you are right. I've never been able to square the producer / rapper we hear on record to the IRL persona.

Much of that is reasonable Jimmy, but if you seriously push him for #1 how do you deal with putting him over Flair who ... Well, has a metric fuck ton of matches over 4 stars and hits all those performance over wrestling things you mention? Never mind about the other 1-contenders, how about just Flair first? In many ways Shawn has a similar skill set to Flair but a much narrower range and depth of output. I'll be honest that some of my personal anger against Shawn (this is also true of Bret) is the idea that he's put on a level with Flair when he just in no way had a resume that deserves to be treated as being in the same ball park. If it just boils down to "I think 00s WWE is the best cos I grew up on it", that's cool for you but it doesn't really wash for a serious #1 argument that could persuade anyone else to vote for him there. By which I mean, what you have described once you strip that out is a part-qualitative, part-quantative top 25 case, not a #1 case.

I guess my main question to you would be about the reasons for not ranking him. I don't think there are that many guys with such a strong resume of matches in the 4+ region. And I see people are routinely voted for with much slimmer and less impressive bodies of work. I just struggle to think there have been 100 workers with a better level of talent and output on tape as him. Maybe there's been fifty or so, but 100? He does work a lot of NWA-style matwork, which I know you don't care for and I know you don't connect with his brand of charisma / character work, but I wouldn't necessarily say those things are particularly central to his case. It's more that he had a reasonably long history of delivering pretty good matches. More so than, say, Regal who didn't have nearly as many matches in that range in that same time frame. I suspect all of the 90s yearbook watchers will vote for him, which should be indicative. But the reason I keep stating this case is because I fear that as a result of these exchanges most people will have perceived 1. That I "lost" this battle with you OJ, whatever reason, and 2. That Hase is not worth checking out as a result of your reviews. It's actually one of the aspects of GWE that I've disliked the most. I simply HATE the idea that me pimping someone could actively hurt them, and it really isn't one of the things that should be taken into consideration when people vote. Sort of thing that has made me fall out of love with the board really. And I honestly find it slightly upsetting. Anyway, my point is that 90s NJ among a lot of people, especially the heavies, is kind of underexplored. It's also not that easily available on YouTube and you'd need to know where to look for these matches if you don't have yearbooks (keyword: Ditch). It should be about people watching stuff and drawing conclusions, but with the volume of stuff to see, my impression is that people will take any excuse not to bother. If that comes down to "well, I trust OJ more than I trust JvK" then so be it, but you can see why that would make me pretty uncomfortable. This is kind of after the fact of course, since most ballots are now cast I'd imagine.

Did you see his instructions to the fashion models? One of the things that is funny about Kanye is that he doesn't seem to have a single person around him to say "Hey, y'know that's a terrible idea", "Isn't that a bit weird?"; so he's like a living embodiment of someone who can just implement any idea he wants no matter how mental. I think that total lack of self-awareness or perspective would make him a wonderful wrestling character, whether babyface or heel.

I'll drop in my Chavo reviews soon, need to move to a PC to do so. I actually did like that Fujinami match, turns out I was thinking of the Tiger Mask one. I frequently confuse Fujinami and Tiger Mask matches from that early 80s NJ junior scene.

How about Kanye West for this?

Fantastic demonstration of OJ's overall wrongness! I kid, I think it's fun to see contrasting opinions, and it is a worthwhile exercise. I would like to think that most people who like pro wrestling, especially of the US 80s variety, would be far closer to my takes than to OJ's in this thread -- and this is somewhat borne out if you cross check responses in the 1990s yearbooks. Hase is the most complete Japanese wrestler I've come across outside of AJPW, like a sort of Japanese Barry Windham with more charisma, and would contend many many of OJ's conclusions in these reviews (and you can have a bit of fun contrasting my reviews with his on the same matches in this very thread). If you haven't watched any of these, I'd strongly recommend doing so, and I would also have fun seeing other people's takes on them.

I was blown away by the Olympia match first time round but then terribly disappointed by it on the rewatch for my 80s thread. I think we are missing too much Chavo for him to rank and he ended up not making my list despite a decent score. I also think he has too many performances in different settings that are disappointing for one reason or another. Didn't like his NJ match vs. Fujinami. He's frequently underwhelming in AJPW. Jetlag might love all that stuff but I've honestly thought it is a case of diminishing returns with Chavo. His best stuff seems to be in the tag setting, especially with Hector, and especially when they are working heel and Chavo gets to flex a bit of his offensive chops. But based on what we've got, and I hate to say this, I think he flatters to deceive as a realistic candidate.

Me and Jetlag are going to have a one vs. one match before this thing is through. I might be the high vote on Martel at #17. He finished above a lot of other big names on my list,

I should mention that I also get annoyed with Cena and Brock for not wearing proper gear. Always think their ankles look skinny because they aren't wearing proper boots.

Bigboss Man, IRS and Mr. Hughes all get a pass because a shirt and trousers is smart. Owens and the others don't because the gear is slovenly.

Things I like to see in a wrestler: - proper tights - proper boots - knee pads I dislike it if any of these three things are missing.

I just wanted to put it out there that I've seen Hamada in a variety of settings and he's never done a single thing that stood out to me. Different people respond in different ways to stuff.

I'd have to disagree with the Tiger Mask comment. I honestly thought Gran Hamada was really disappointing in the early 80s NJ setting. As was Chavo.

I need to re-watch that one clearly.