JerryvonKramer

It's not really new, but psychology has been out of vogue in the discipline for a good few years (25+) and is only just "coming back" as it were. I wrote a book on cognition last year. A lot of academics are still beholden to the paradigms of anti-humanist theory. There was a really interesting book written a few years back called "On the Origin of Stories": http://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog.php?isbn=9780674057111&content=reviews But a lot of people are resistant to the ideas and think evolutionary theory is crude and reductive. I've pointed out in the past that left-wing literary theorists ironically share the same evolution-denying ground as nut-job right-wing fundamentalist Christian groups.

Did anyone say Brock for this? Brock is a total greatest hits guy.

Disagree with this because a lot of the shootstyle matches I have seen have clear narratives. Maybe the biggest example is the Tamura/Han trilogy. The roles of each and the story of each match are very clearly defined. Not only that, there is an overarching story as well because we get to see how their characters and approaches change/evolve across the three matches and each match builds off the previous. It is basically the Flair vs. Steamboat of shootstyle except maybe on an even higher level. Also mat wizard vs. striker, david vs. goliath and young lion vs. veteran/ace type matches and their variations are pretty common in shootstyle. Can you elaborate a bit more on this? So many of the great feuds I can think of are about huge and clashing ideologies. The guy who parties and gets all the chicks vs. the dedicated family man (Flair vs. Steamer) The rebel vs. the bastion of tradition (Tenryu vs. Jumbo) The trash-talking employee vs. the authoritarian boss (Austin vs. McMahon) In what ways would you say the narrative arch of Tamura vs. Han is on an "even higher level" than any of those? Your answer here might help many of us here who struggle to understand or get into shoot style.

It's almost entirely the latter. As you know, I always did and still see the project as being much much more about the former, hence BIGLAV and ranking people I don't love. If it was just a purely subjective list motivated only by my personal feelings, that 100 would be my list. Eagle-eyed readers among you might be able to spot Kurt Angle at #80, which should be of interest to Case and others who I argued with about that before. I still like Angle deep down, but I can separate the heart and the head. I don't really care where you rank Angle, I just have an issue with you scoffing at the idea of Angle being a Top 20 contender. I didn't rank Angle in my actual list. And I encourage more people to scoff loudly at him as a top 20 contender, because he really isn't one.

Hey, Judy, with our recent GWE Top 100 show going 6 and PWSS going almost 10 on theirs, we thought you might be happy!

While I'm remembering stuff, I'm still really tickled about the fact we had a 20-page thread pitting Hogan against Molly Ringwald.

When I was in New Orleans I sat on a panel and the topic was Shakespeare and narrative theory. They think now that the human mind can only process stuff through narrative, and we make stories automatically. This can be seen most readily in dreams. Apparently, when we dream it's all random images, the narrative throughline only comes AFTER you wake up. You remember bits and automatically weave together the story yourself. It's made me think a bit about what we do with storytelling in wrestling. I'm convinced these days that so much of what we do in our wrestling criticism is akin to weaving together the disparate parts of the dream. The narrative and psychology are made by us, not by the workers.

I saw someone reading this. Man, the stuff you forget about. I don't want to say I miss jdw ... but I do kinda.

It's almost entirely the latter. As you know, I always did and still see the project as being much much more about the former, hence BIGLAV and ranking people I don't love. If it was just a purely subjective list motivated only by my personal feelings, that 100 would be my list. Eagle-eyed readers among you might be able to spot Kurt Angle at #80, which should be of interest to Case and others who I argued with about that before. I still like Angle deep down, but I can separate the heart and the head.

You guys didn't mention the DiBiase run-in here where he tries to steal Damian. I've always loved this because it metaphorically links Mania 5 back to 4 (DiBiase helping out his old partner in crime) and forward to 6 (DiBiase vs. Jake). I have no idea if that was in their thinking or not, but one of those little things I thought it was neat to think about.

You guys have no idea how much impact this match has had on me. EVERY time I see two former tag partners against each other a little Gorilla Monsoon pops into my brain. "Former tag-team partners, Bigboss Man and Akeem, now have to face each other!" Also, Ted fucking decks Bossman at the start of this match. Always thought it make Akeem seem like a real jobber that he couldn't win this match after that assault.

As I mentioned previously, I thought it would be an interesting thought experiment to see what sort of list I'd come up with without the use of BIGLAV and instead using Steven Graham's nebulously vaugue, sentimental, Canadian "feely" system, shorn of any and all pretence of objectivity. First thing I did was go through my list and cut out all of the people I do not LOVE and who do not make me feel warm inside. These are all people to whom I was either "giving credit where it is due" or who did well on BIGLAV despite my personal feelings on the matter. Here's who went. Cut: AJ Styles Andre Antonio Inoki Bob Backlund Carlos Colon Chris Benoit Chris Jericho CM Punk Daniel Bryan Dean Malenko Dick Murdoch Dory Funk Jr Dustin Rhodes Dusty Rhodes Dynamite Kid El Dandy Hulk Hogan Jerry Lawler John Cena Johnny Saint Jose Lothario Jun Akiyama Jushin Liger Keiji Mutoh Ken Patera Larry Zbyszko Low Ki Masa Fuchi Mick Foley Negro Casas Rey Mysterio Jr Riki Choshu Roddy Piper Sean Waltman Shawn Michaels Shinya Hashimoto Steve Austin Steve Grey Steve Williams Sting Tatsumi Fujinami Terry Gordy The Destroyer Tito Santana Tommy Rich In making this list I asked myself questions like "who would I rather watch?" and "just based on how I'm feeling today, who do I FEEL should go higher?" This is not a piss-take and I'm not trying to prove anything. I genuinely wanted to see what I'd end up with. Here it is. Inerestingly, not that much movement in the top 10. 1. Ric Flair 2. Jumbo Tsuruta 3. Terry Funk 4. Mitsuharu Misawa 5. Kenta Kobashi 6. Stan Hansen 7. Nick Bockwinkel 8. Generico Tenryu 9. Toshiaki Kawada 10. Billy Robinson 11. Jim Breaks 12. William Regal 13. Pat Patterson 14. Rick Martel 15. Ricky Steamboat 16. Jack Brisco 17. Ted DiBiase 18. Arn Anderson 19. Barry Windham 20. Bobby Eaton 21. Randy Savage 22. Ricky Morton 23. Hiroshi Hase 24. Tully Blanchard 25. Sgt. Slaughter 26. Buddy Rose 27. Eddie Guerrero 28. Harley Race 29. Brock Lesnar 30. Yoshiaki Yatsu 31. Mocha Cota 32. Vader 33. Akira Taue 34. Ron Garvin 35. Bob Orton Jr 36. Adrian Adonis 37. Giant Baba 38. Bill Dundee 39. Curt Hennig 40. Jerry Blackwell 41. Rick Rude 42. Bret Hart 43. Wahoo McDaniel 44. Mr. Saito 45. Owen Hart 46. Brian Pillman 47. Ivan Koloff 48. Scott Steiner 49. Rick Steiner 50. Dennis Condrey 51. Tommy Rogers 52. Magnum TA 53. Michael Hayes 54. Big Boss Man 55. Butch Reed 56. Bruno Sammartino 57. Lex Luger 58. Kerry Von Erich 59. Haku 60. Dick Slater 61. Killer Khan 62. Iron Sheik 63. Jake Roberts 64. Buzz Sawyer 65. Chavo Guerrerro (Sr) 66. Abdullah the Butcher 67. Red Pants Kobayashi 68. Ernie Ladd 69. Tsuyoshi Kikuchi 70. Earthquake John Tenta 71. Bobby Fulton 72. Ron Simmons 73. Paul Orndorff 74. Atushi Onita 75. Tarzan Goto 76. Kensuke Sasaki 77. Eddie Gilbert 78. Doug Somers 79. Masked Superstar 80. Kurt Angle 81. One Man Gang 82. Mike Rotunda 83. Yokozuna 84. Ricky Fuyuki 85. The Rock 86. The Undertaker 87. Tiger Mask 88. Jim Duggan 89. British Bulldog (Davey Boy Smith) 90. Matt Borne 91. Mr. Fuji 92. Tony Garea 93. Toru Tanaka 94. Tor Kamata 95. The Sheik (Original) 96. Gentleman Jerry Valiant 97. Koko Ware 98. Raymond Rougeau 99. Bobby Heenan 100. Vince McMahon

Not especially. I have Flair vs. Vader, one of the few matches ever to make me cry at about ***1/2 and I thought the Tamura match had less drama and excitement than that. It's very had to get into all the psyche-out stuff. In any other wrestling match that is down time, in these shoot matches it is actually about 50% of the body of the match. Those speculative kicks to Vader's leg, for example, is that meant to be offense that has connected or offense that is being deflected? I couldn't really tell. And then the match is over. That's my experience with a lot of this stuff. Match spends a long time in feeling out and then as soon as it gets going, it's over. I get what they are going for, but it's a form of storytelling that fails to elicit much interest from me. I've seen a fair few of the RINGS matches, including those vs. Volk Han. I will say that the strikes are more satisfactory in that setting and the pace is faster, but I'd still have the same general observation. It's a game of waiting for the moment to hit the right precision strike or lock on the right submission finish. PS. I don't know if you listened to the WTBBP special where we do our GWE lists, but you should for the tribute promo Chad cuts on you at one point.

Where's the "get a life" option?

What's the difference between this thread and JvK reviews pimped matches from late 90s-10s? They appear to be totally different beasts as far as I can see: Apart from jdw that once, I don't recall anyone coming in behind me with contrasting reviews in that thread. I'm not complaining, but it does account for me being increasingly tetchy in this one.

After Chad went so high with him, I watched a bunch of Tamura tonight to see if my dial had shifted at all on shoot style. One observation- crowds were big and presentation seems real video gamey, especially the music which sounds lifted directly from the Capcom vaults (see Vader clip especially). I'm pretty sure I heard Ryu's theme at one point. I watched him: Vs. Takada Vs. Vader Vs. Anjoh Vs. Yamazaki Yamazaki bout seemed noticeably better and more engaging than the others to me, but what the hell do I know? Has the dial moved? Not really. For me it's all way too tentative, tentative, feeling out, feeling out, strike! The style is not boring nor indeed completely inaccessible, but it remains the case that it does very little for me.

At 6'2, 230lbs, with ELECTRIC charisma, Roddy Piper is just about the smallest guy who Vince programmed against Hogan in 1980s, and even then he initially brought him in as a manager. But I think if you were to make an argument for Punk getting over in that environment, there's your closest precedent. Still wonder about Vince Sr. booking him against Bruno or Backlund. More difficult to imagine. Pat Patterson is about the smallest guy I can think of who was put there at 6'1, 240lbs. And he was a super-duper worker, which Punk wasn't.

At 218lbs, do you see him main-eventing in New York in the 1970s? The NWA guys tended to work closer to the 235lb mark. He's a wee bit on the small side, and would have to overcome odds in certain eras. Hard to imagine a 1980s Vince Jr putting him in the main event. Do you see Tully or Arn as being able to work babyface at the top of a card? I know Tully did do that for his father. Do you see 80s Vince Jr putting either guy in the main event? Do you think Tully could have main evented MSG in the 1970s? He's also on the small side. Dibiase was very borderline in terms of size in 80s WWF - so I'm not sure why it would necessarily disqualify these three guys when they were only slightly smaller than Ted. I guess you could say that Ted was just above some imaginary line and these guys were just below it, but I don't think it's such an either/or. Ted was 6'3 and about 260lbs. One of those guys who is bigger than you'd think. There's a pretty big gap between 218lbs and 260lbs.

Sounds ripe for the Mystery Theatre!

I think you have to assume that the bookers were who they were in real life with all their prejudices and short-comings. Vince Sr wouldn't have booked Punk against Bruno. I very much doubt Jr would have booked him against Hogan. I also think Vince's "too Southern" hang up is a real consideration for a lot of guys.

Think this is a really good pick actually. I he proved he could work Japan in his actual career. Can absolutely see him in the modern era too. Two thumbs up!

I think the main problems for Bigelow were what actually plagued him through his actual career: he's someone who often found himself on the wrong side of the office. You've seen that all. It really is quite difficult to do this. The check list is something like: - In-ring can go with anyone - Work face / heel - Up and down card, main event, mid-card or tags - Any sort of match - Good on mic - Good enough an actor to get over any angle - Good relations with the boys - Good relations with the office - Big enough that he'd have gotten over in New York 70s / WWF in the 80s Bigelow is a really nice outside-of-the-box pick, but he's let down by his politics.

I was trying to think of an answer and didn't think of Bob but since you bring him up, yea. Could work anywhere on the card, could do tags, could be heel or face and had the promo skills to get over anything you needed. He's a good pick, how do you see him getting over up north or in Japan? I ask that for obvious reasons. Seems like a guy tied to a particular region more than most.

At 218lbs, do you see him main-eventing in New York in the 1970s? The NWA guys tended to work closer to the 235lb mark. He's a wee bit on the small side, and would have to overcome odds in certain eras. Hard to imagine a 1980s Vince Jr putting him in the main event. Do you see Tully or Arn as being able to work babyface at the top of a card? I know Tully did do that for his father. Do you see 80s Vince Jr putting either guy in the main event? Do you think Tully could have main evented MSG in the 1970s? He's also on the small side.

Disclaiminer: this didn't start out as a thread idea, but just kinda took on a life of its own as I was replying to funkdoc. I think I did once describe Ted DiBiase as a "booker's dream" and argued he'd be a super high draft pick among bookers, any era, any context, any promotion, just because he could literally perform any role on the roster and get over any angle you ever wanted. He also had good size and good athleticism. He could talk, he could go, work face, work heel, work tags, gimmick matches, brawls, main event, mid-card, carry a promotion, just be a side dish, put someone over, put himself over. You name the function the booker could ask of him, and he'd carry it out with minimal back-chat. Also popular with and respected by the boys. Kind of the ultimate pro wrestling employee in that respect. When I asked Dave about about Ted, it's actually this quality of being able to get anything over that he pointed to: "The Booker's Dream". I guess if he came through a few years later Vince might have wanted him to work out more to get a more stacked upper body, but there are plenty of guys who went through the 90s, 00s and 10s without that being muscled up. Now I'm thinking about it, I can't think of too many other guys in that bracket. Actually, this might make a good thread to think about... Who ELSE other that Ted could be said to be a "booker's dream" in this way. It's is a more rare mix of in- and out-of-ring skills, build and personality type in wrestling than it might first appear. I can think of reasons for and against some other guys: Flair - too big of a personality to (for example) shunt across to the tag division when required. Funk - doesn't have the staying power, and so can't really stick around for the long haul, coming and going is built into his act Lawler - similar to Flair in that he works best when you build things around him. Eddie - has all of the right skills, but probably too small to get over in, for example, 70s New York. I don't see them booking him against Bruno. Shawn - also too small for "any era" Bryan - ditto, probably not got the mic skills to get over any angle either Benoit - ditto on both counts Jericho - maybe? He's also a little on the small side at 227lbs, but I think he's the closest so far. Windham - he has the ring skills and the right build but I wonder about his mic skills, do you see him leading a heel stable and doing well enough to carry the main feuds of a promotion? I think he comes close. Dustin Rhodes - also think he has the right mix of in-ring skills and build, not the best promo, but he's solid enough. I guess where we'd have to think, similiar to Windham, is if he could really carry a promotion. Bock - I guess the main question with Bock is similar to Flair and Lawler, can you buy him shunting down the card? He did work in tag-teams for a long stretch of his career. I also wonder about Bock the babyface. He was a fun babyface in that AWA run, but so much of it was predicated on him being the "better the devil you know" vs. Larry Z. HHH - have a real think about him for a moment. His biggest problems come from how he was booked and how he worked as a heel, but I can honestly imagine all the old promoters liking him. I'm thinking about a HHH booked by Watts or Giant Baba. He'd have to work on his promos to be more serviceable in the 80s, but actually I wonder if he's ticking a lot of boxes? Dylan? Rick Martel - main issue is that he's not a great promo and talks with an accent, and also is so much better as a face. Steamboat - can't work heel, difficult wife Rude - can't work face, often had heat with the boys and the office, bit of a "heatseeker". Austin - if you take him as "Stunning Steve" maybe, but assuming you transition him to main event and he gets over with what got him over in real life, hard to imagine shunting him back down the card or shuffling him into a tag-team as and when required. Jake - has the out-of-ring skills, but probably not the in-ring skills to fulfill all the different roles needed. He's actually a stronger pick for this than many so far though, excepting addiction issues. Dick Murdoch - Right mix of skills in and out of ring. I think perhaps "too southern" to work as a truly top guy in New York, and I don't think his physique would have gotten over in the past 15-20 years. Perhaps seens as "trouble" by the office. I'll stop here. Consider more names and consider what they are able realisitically to do. Think about what is asked of workers from bookers in different time periods. Who else is a "booker's dream"?