JerryvonKramer

You would effectively be removing choice A by outlawing that form of contract. You end up with a roster of Baron Sciclinas grinding out the years to get to their pension.

Okay, so let’s pretend you give the workers the choice between a four-year guaranteed contract for millions like those listed or a salaried position for let’s say 60% of the total plus pension and benefits with no end date, how many workers choose the former and how many choose the latter? And then beyond that which sorts of workers do you think go for A or B? What you really want to do is remove choice A (from workers’ point of view high reward but high risk) from the table entirely in exchange for B (lower reward, lower risk). Why do you want to do this?

Guess I must’ve dreamt all this then https://www.thesportster.com/wrestling/ridiculous-wcw-contracts-that-sank-the-company/

Can people lay out to me how well this worked for WCW in 2000? Thanks.

So let's use Ted DiBiase Jr as the example, since I mentioned him. He was a mid-ranking talent who worked for Vince between 2007 and 2013. He's estimated to have made around $4 million in that time. I mean the heart just bleeds doesn't it. Who exactly do you think gets helped by this? You introduce that policy and then it's a lot harder for Ted Jr to give up his spot and harder to get him out of the door. So you compound the advantage of a guy who is already a multi-millionaire at the expense of someone else who has to spend longer on the indie scene. I don't understand why you support this policy given that this is exactly what would happen.

You're essentially advocating giving Ted DiBiase Jr benefits and a pension in 2008 and us still being stuck with him on TV every week today.

Plenty of promotions made fantastic money in 1970. In his book Bill Watts talks about working Bruno in the 60s and making $1,000 per show. Adjusted for inflation that's just under $8,000 today. Watts worked 36 dates for WWWF in 1965 alone -- pretend he made even half of that per show and he still made around $146,000 adjusted for inflation that year just in New York. Watts worked big St. Louis dates that year also, so he likely made more. Just one example, and a top guy, but the idea the guys were making peanuts back in the day is untrue. Larry Sharpe, who I mentioned here, got $500 for wrestling Inoki in 1980 (just over $1,500 today) and on the back of that was booked for a NJPW tour. He made $1,000 (over $3000 today) for wrestling Ivan Putski at MSG the same year. This was essentially a job guy. If this bill had been in operation over that period I very much doubt Watts or Sharpe would have been getting those pay days. Let's say Vince can afford this -- fine, he likely can -- the net effect will be to make it *that* much harder for his nearest rival to turn over a profit. That's the chap Khan running All Elite from what I read. You might say "well he can afford it too" -- fine. But you've just made it that much harder for any indie that gains momentum to ever be anything more than a two-bit indie. The nature of the business is such that it will always be a "gig economy". You can't have an industry of only homesteaders.

Not an argument. Considering incentives and long-run effects has nothing at all to do with "gimmicks". The beauty of this is that we do not at all need to argue about it, we can just wait and see and the results will speak for themselves.

All kidding aside, I don’t see this bill working for wrestling because of the nature of the business. Not all jobs can work like being a high school teacher with benefits and a pension. If it was brought in Federally, Vince would trade off by hiring fewer workers or reducing pay to offset. In either case the aggregate effect would be to hurt the boys more than it helped them. The net beneficiaries would be people who’d already be making so much money as top stars that they don’t need extra protections. If this bill had been in play let’s say in 1970, there’d have never have been a Pretty Boy Larry Sharpe. Most guys wouldn’t have even got into the business.

If WWE ran Cali today with the Bolsheviks on the card, they’d likely get cheered.

Well shit. Looks like another match is required! I’ve replaced with Last Battle or Atlanta.

In this thread I am going to profile all of the classic wrestling venues from the history of this great sport. Feel free to add your own memories, comments, trivia, etc. I'm going to do them in batches of 3 or 4 so that people can spend time talking about each of them. Grand Olympic Auditorium, Los Angeles, California Year opened: 1924 Capacity: 15,300 Legendary Match: Fred Blassie vs. John Tolos (9/4/70) No. of shows: 5,833 This venue was the wrestling Mecca at the heart of the old LaBell territory from the 1950s to the 1970s where Blassie was a lynchpin. Before that, however, from the 1920s to the 1940s, John Londos sold this place out almost on a weekly basis. Ray Steele was a draw there also, as were Bobo Brazil and Ed “Strangler” Lewis. After Vince McMahon Jr’s WWF bought the LA promotion in 1983, they only ran it three times because Vince preferred to run the flashier LA Memorial Sports Arena and then later the Staples Center. Cow Palace, San Francisco, California Year opened: 1941 Capacity: 16,55 Legendary Match: Ray Stevens vs. Pat Patterson (7/11/70) No. of shows: 324 This was the monthly arena for the old Roy Shire promotion in the 1960s and 70s where Ray Stevens and Pat Patterson both made their names. Bobo Brazil and Pepper Gomez were draws in this area too, and Nick Bockwinkel established his name in Cow Palace shows. Later on, Roddy Piper got his start here. By 1976, Shire started getting burnt out and gates were down and so they no longer ran it (although the promotion wouldn’t close until 1981). Verne Gagne’s AWA then moved in to the area and took residence at the Cow Palace drawing a 10,000 gate in 1983, but crowds dwindled after that. From 1985 onwards, Vince moved in and started running shows with Hogan on top. Verne also ran there as the AWA and WWF actively battled over the use of the Cow Palace. After Superclash II drew a brutal 2,800 in 1987 the writing was on the wall, three months later a WWF TV taping drew 14,700 and the place belonged to Vince. JCP tried their hand running in 1988 with Sting vs. Flair on top drawing only 4,500 which was less than half what a regular WWF spot show drew on month later with Savage vs. DiBiase on top. Vince ran it unchallenged all the way until 1997 when WCW staged Superbrawl VII there drawing 13,324 with Hogan vs. Piper on top. It continues to be used for wrestling to this day although WWE haven’t been there since 2012. The Capital Centre, Landover, Maryland Year opened: 1973 Capacity: 18,756 Legendary Match: Andre the Giant vs. Big John Studd (7/23/83) No. of shows: 181 When Vince Sr started running WWWF shows in Washington again in the 70s, he made the new Cap Centre the home of wrestling for the area and they ran shows there every month. In 1980, when the Bruno Sammartino vs. Larry Zybysko feud came through they drew almost 20,000 there but the record was broken by Andre vs. Big John Studd three years later which was matched three years later by Hulk Hogan vs. Paul Orndorff. In 1987, Crockett ran a Great American Bash there which drew a very respectable 15,000 with a War Games match, but by 1989 they were down to 4,200. Survivor Series 1995 took place at this venue. The Omni, Atlanta, Georgia Year opened: 1972 Capacity: 16,378 Legendary Match: Tommy Rich vs. Buzz Sawyer (10/23/83) No. of shows: 291 Some have called it ‘The MSG of the South’, and Jim Barnett ran amazingly loaded cards at this venue sometimes twice a month from 1973 onwards with both Thanksgiving and New Years Day shows becoming a tradition in Georgia. In 1980, Harley Race vs. Mr Wrestling #2 drew 16,000 there, and GCW sold it out again for Race vs. Tony Atlas plus a tag tournament featuring the Fabulous Freebirds in the Thanksgiving show. After Crockett took over, in 1985, Starrcade drew 14,000 at the Omni with Ric Flair vs. Dusty Rhodes on top and they got that crowd again for the New Years show with Flair and the Andersons vs. Rhodes and the Road Warriors with Magnum TA vs. Tully Blanchard in the semi-main. They ran Starrcade again there in 1986 and got the same number. Many of the regular loop Omni gates around this time, however, fell off a cliff – the lowest point being in late 1993 when Flair vs. Rick Rude drew only 800. WCW would run Omni cards all the way until its sad demolition in 1997. The last wrestling show there was the 3/3/97 Nitro which drew over 13,000 and was headlined by Lex Luger and The Giant vs. The Steiner Brothers.

Incidentally, I think they missed a trick by not calling this "The Lex Luger Bill".

Naturally this will just kill wrestling in California.

This is an extremely underrated and under appreciated aspect of the presentation of that era. Hogan wasn’t Triple H cutting a 20-minute promo every week. Him being there was pretty much “Elvis has entered the building” territory. The sense of depth on that roster is pretty incredible when you think of it. As kids I think think we didn’t truly appreciate how much Gorilla’s “main event anywhere in the country” line was true. I go back and forth on the strengths and weaknesses of this. On the plus side the TV was magical and the PPVs some huge shows. But consider now that Vince Sr was selling out MSG, Philly, Boston, Baltimore every month mostly with 2-match cards with 20-minute Baron Scicluna matches underneath and Vince Jr seemed to struggle to do this with a massive budget, loaded cards, pop stars and all the rest of it. I sometimes wonder if Vince made a lot of extra work for himself. Hogan wasn’t good drawing return bouts in the arena. If you study gates many of the other headliners didn’t draw whether Tito vs Greg, Savage vs Ted, or Warrior vs Rude. They even had to bring Bruno back in 86. So part of me says the depth of roster — great from fan point of view — didn’t draw. I haven’t got figures in front of me but I bet there were Boston shows headlined by Backlund vs Bobby Dumcum and nothing at all underneath that drew better than peak Hogan era shows.

I’ve just read that Lou Albano mentioned in a shoot from 2001 that when he was working the Sicilians gimmick in the 60s the real mob got upset and asked him to tone it down. They were definitely *around*.

I wasn't really thinking about being a fan in that sort of way, but rather his apparent inability to appreciate the old territories. Wouldn't be an issue if he was just some guy, but every Conrad podcast I've ever heard has a ton of wasted opportunities. Someone like Dragon King Karl would be much better placed in most of those spots.

It's not exactly Infowars level to suggest some of these guys were involved with the mob! That said, the Savoldi undercover thing suggests not as I've said.

The tournament continues as Piper went over David Sammartino (who will be sent to rehab again now) and Tommy Rich defeated Rick Rude who is still in the process of establishing his act and getting over. Savage had a wild brawl with the young Mick Foley who suffered his first ever singles loss in NWF. But then in the main event: CHAOS. As Hulk Hogan was taking on Bobby Eaton the ring was stormed by Arn and Ole Anderson who tripped Hogan up from outside the ring. As the ref turned to look at them, Roddy Piper leaped from his position in the commentary booth, grabbed a steel chair and laid Hogan out with it. As the ref was still dealing with the Andersons, Randy Savage ran down to ringside and climbed onto the top rope to deliver his patented elbow onto the steel chair which Piper had laid across Hogan. The ref rang the bell for a DQ but it was too late, Hogan was bleeding and now Eaton, The Andersons, Piper and Savage were laying into him with cheap kicks and stomps. Doctors and officials ran to the ring and Hogan had to be stretchered out. Piper called for a microphone and started laughing manically. Piper: A new era has dawned in NWF. Ha ha ha ha. Because you see, there are five digits on this hand, there are five points on a star, and there are five of us, you see!! Ha ha ha ha. Savage: Oh yeah, the Five Star has made a statement, Hogan. Tommy Rich. Bruno Sammartino. You dig it? We have a master plan. Piper: Ha ha ha ha. It's all up here. It's all up here! Ole: Never before in professional wrestling have so many great minds coalesced in one place at one time for one purpose and one purpose only! We are going to capture every single piece of gold in the NWF. We are going to leave all of you pipsqueaks watching at home with no doubt at all in any of your minds who is the best thing in professional wrestling today. Piper (exploding with manic energy) : Ha ha ha ha. It's all up here. It's all up here! Arn: As you see this big goof Hulk Hogan being stretchered out of this building, let it be a lesson to anyone. He tried to mess with Bobby Eaton, you mess with one point of the star you mess with ALL of us! Piper: Ha ha ha ha ha. It's all up here! It's all up here!

Plans for the National Title tournament are now taking shape as the entire first round is over owing to the whole card of NWF Tour on Nickelodeon being devoted to it. Here is the next round of the draw to take place in the coming weeks before the grand final at the Wrestling Classic which will take place at the end of June next month. Meanwhile, David Sammartino's drug problem is getting out of hand and causing a lot of heat with the locker room. However, Bruno is very unlikely to fire him and it is likely he will be sent to rehab after his next match.

League of Champions advanced the tournament another match with Rick Rude going over Don Diamond. The Harts continued to pick up steam with Bret Hart's performance particularly standing out against Doug Somers and Jerry Valiant. Greg Valentine came in for a solid match against Bruno in the main event. The Ross / Piper pairing on commentary has a little teething trouble, but on the whole seems to be lifting the product.

Unfortunately, Nickelodeon did not air this show owing to a scheduling clash, and so only the live crowd got to see it. Tommy Rich debuted and defeated Shane Douglas in the first round of the National title tournament while Hogan and Savage won sqaushes and the Andersons defended their title. Grand Wizard announced Greg Valentine will take on Bruno next week.

League of Champions opened with a slightly new look today and two brand new hosts! Sean Mooney had actually been improving as an announcer and had excellent chemistry with John Tolos, but the A-show needed a more "stellar" feeling commentary team and this ticks every box. Randy Savage squashed Frankie Williams and then gave an interview to Mooney alongside Miss Elizabeth who stood around looking pretty. The Harts defeated Yatsu and Pogo again as they continue to build momentum. The Andersons cut a promo to remind everyone they are still tag champs. The biggest news on the show was the debut of Hulk Hogan who has agreed -- in exchange for significant money -- to give up his other contracts and sign on an exclusive pay-per-appearance basis with NWF. The crowd seemed stoked to see him as "Eye of the Tiger" played. Hogan defeated The Sheik who was extremely unhappy to do this job on his way out, but did it nonetheless. In the main event, Bruno Sammartino made short work of Stan Stasiak who was quite rusty having been retired for some time and working color commentary for Pacific Northwest (Portland) TV. However, the Grand Wizard's relentless attempt to recreate every WWWF main event of the 1960s and 1970s will continue unabated. "The Manager of Champions" is not going to give up now!

The NWF Tour introduced the Nickelodeon audience to Randy Savage and Miss Elizabeth as well as handing debuts to the Harts in the main event. Piper's Pit featured Grand Wizard hyping up the fact that he is bringing in Stan Stasiak to face Bruno. Meanwhile David Sammartino has his first match after coming back from rehab ... and he was wasted on drugs. Again!

Mohammed Saed has just handed in his notice, and Don Leo Jonathan -- who seems to have a lot of heat in the locker room as a road agent -- has also requested to leave which has been agreed, both are gone from NWF. Coming in the other way is Bobby Eaton and David Sammartino back from rehab. This seems a good time to take stock of the roster. Let's look at the out-of-ring talent: The Mooney / Tolos partnership is still quite a sub-par pairing for TV and I am considering transitioning Mooney into an interviewer role and bringing in a new play-by-play guy to pair with Roddy Piper on the A show with Tolos on the B show. An offer has been made to try to lure Jim Ross away from Mid-South. With Don Leo Jonathan leaving, Lou Thesz continues as the main road agent, as well as on-air President of NWF, and Dominic Denucci is an agent also. Brian Hildebrand is the only ref and Grand Wizard the only manager. As things stand more are not required. Let's look at the job squad now. Scicluna is still in rehab and it strikes me that there are no heel jobbers on the roster. Offers have been made to Lanny Poffo, which should make Savage happy if he comes, Paul Christy, Terry Gibbs, and Victor Rivera. Next up, the midcard. Most of these guys are currently in the tag mix with the exception of Foley and Douglas who are long-term projects. Foley is still only 17 and Douglas is 18. I want to keep them bubbling away on the undercard for a good while -- with Foley working the angle of being strange or mentally deranged. There are two wrestlers who a notch above these workers: Arn is still quite young here but is already tag champion with Ole, and I am not yet sure what to do with Eaton. The roster may be getting big enough to introduce a secondary singles title. Finally the stars: The promotion has been ticking over and steadily growing in its first five months with Bruno working various one-shot challengers brought in by the Grand Wizard in the Vince Sr pattern. But Bruno is 47 years old and this will not be good long-term. In the short-term this can continue ticking over, but new stars need to be built. Tommy Rich and Hulk Hogan are both already popular regional stars with national recognition. Savage is less well known and Rude still virtually unknown. Piper is a pretty big star, especially in the Mid-Atlantic and South West regions, as well as in the North West. The challenge will be to create some hot feuds involving these guys to build them to a point where any could be viable contenders for Bruno's title. The establishment of a secondary heel champion with babyfaces chasing him might help here. Looking at the options, Rude is not yet ready for this role, so it will be between Savage and Piper. I have yet to use Piper in the ring at all, he is presenting Piper's Pit on the B show currently -- this may well get switched to the A show. That leaves Savage as the secondary champion. And I think a tournament is the obvious way to do this. Perhaps Piper could form an alliance with Savage and The Andersons with a stated mission to take over the world of NWF as the true "Masters of the League of Champions". Yes, a stable! Perhaps this is where Bobby Eaton comes in as a member of this group. The stable can be called "The Five Star" -- not only a nod to the dirt sheets but also the idea that the five men form five points of a star. The story will then be of Hogan and Rich both turning up to stop this group taking over and allying with the Harts. Then we have: Hogan vs. Piper as the headline feud. Rich chasing Savage for the secondary belt. Harts chasing Andersons for the tag titles. Bobby Eaton in the role of being the first obstacle to face or slotting in as tag partner where necessary. All the while that goes on Bruno will continue to face villains of the month managed by Grand Wizard and defending his title almost detached from the rest of the card. Have just tried to sign Miss Elizabeth also, who will add some flavour to the whole deal.