BigBadMick

Thanks Loss, that puts a lot of things into perspective. Keller is nearly entirely analysis/opinion these days. It seems well thought out and prepared. Which makes for a nice contrast from Meltzer, who - judging by the comments on the megathread - sometimes doesn't seem to put a great deal of thought into statements he blurts out at times. And, as has come up on the thread, I don't think Alvarez is capable of debating Dave on anything. It's embarrassing at times how dismissive he is of Bryan, but at the same time Bryan doesn't seem to know enough to enter the debate. By contrast, Keller and Mitchell seem to have conversational, back and forth discussions and seem capable of influencing each other. Keller's very good at directing the discussionand keeping Mitchell on point and ensuring he's clear in any argument he presents. I agree that Mitchell is polemic and that can be tiresome (his 'WWE is trying to create it's own indie league with NXT' tirades are fast forward material for me), but his wealth of knowledge and experience, especially with JCP, make up for that, for me.

Thought I'd bump this because I'm curious about how little coverage Keller and Mitchell get in PWO. They will cover Punk's podcast in detail over the weekend. Keller has already provided a fairly detailed breakdown which I enjoyed greatly, going into issues about Punk and an employee and the WWE system as a place to work. I thought it was balanced, insightful and thought-provoking. Anyway, does anyone else on PWO listen to Keller and Mitchell? And if not, is there a particular reason for strong aversion against them? Where is Keller on a totem pole of credibility as a wrestling writer? I'm really curious about all this, partly because he produces all this content but is largely ignored on PWO, and no-one's really explained why.

We probably need a definition of a casual fan here. To me, it's someone that watches Raw weekly, and Smackdown sometimes, and in the pre-Network era would have ordered 'Mania, SummerSlam and Rumble. Doesn't really bother with the internet much. Has a memory Perhaps we're on different trains of thought here?

I don't think the Hogan/Backlund analogy applies here. Maybe I'm speaking for myself here, but when the product is hot, you don't tend to look to the past. If you'd been a casual fan from, say, 2008 to now, I think you'd be inclined to look at 2008-10 as 'the good old days' and not be as keen on the present. You'd still pay money and support it, but be aware that it's in a bit of a slump. Again, I'm not going off any concrete evidence here, just a feeling I have. I don't think casual fans only live in a perpetual present.

And to pick up on another point, I don't think WWE has a current 'living legend' that they would try to call the greatest ever, like HBK.

'Just like Simon Cowell makes music I'd never ever ever buy in a million years, but the charts are full of his acts.' Yeah, but that doesn't make it right I see where you're coming from, Parv. But I would be curious to know if casual fans, paying the casual dollar, feel WWE is as good was it was even 5 years ago. And I'm not sure how you would even try to find out.

Ok, but Parv I think there are about 50 people on this board more qualified to speak on the decline of Vince than me. You've said before that you stopped watching in about 2005, can I ask why, and whether you feel there was a decline in WWE at that time?

It's a very different Vince out there now though, Parv. If he was 1/2 as capable now as he was in 1998 I'd agree with you.....

I've listened to Keller's analysis, think it makes a very good companion piece.

Holy shit! Just up to the night after the Rumble. Phenomenal stuff. Fair play to Punk for holding his silence so long and letting this have the massive impact it will now.

That's when I'd stop cheering him.

I would. And I think a lot of the over 40s that watch WWE would too.

Mention Foley on wrestling classics and this will change. Oh? How so?

I thought Arn looked very fat backstage with Batista. Could do with shedding a few pounds anyway....

Not sure if this is the best place to put this up but does anyone have match dates for the Fighting Spirit Wrestling series? Found out her http://fightnetwork.com/news/36883:fight-network-launches-fighting-spirit-wrestling-series/ that it was starting in March 2013 and seemed to run for one season. Here's the episode listings... =Season 1 Episode 1= [CMLL] 2-out-of-3-falls grudge match: Mistico vs. Volador [NJPW] IWGP Heavyweight Championship match: Satoshi Kojima © vs. Hiroshi Tanahashi =Season 1 Episode 2= [NJPW] Manabu Nakanishi, Mitsuhide Hirasawa, Riki Chosu & Wataru Inoue vs. Karl Anderson, Takashi Iizuka, Tamoaki Honma & Tomohiro Ishi [NJPW] GHC Heavyweight Championship match: Hirooki Goto vs. Takashi Sugiura © =Season 1 Episode 3= [NJPW] "NJPW vs NOAH" match: Shinsuke Nakamura (NJPW) vs. Go Shiozaki (NOAH) [NJPW] Chain match: Takashi Iizuka vs. Togi Makabe =Season 1 Episode 4= [NJPW] Mistico, Prince Devitt & Ryusuke Taguchi vs. Averno, Gedo & Jado [CMLL] La Sombra, Mascara Dorada & La Mascara vs. Alebrije, Olimpico & Psicosis =Season 1 Episode 5= [NJPW] Manabu Nakanishi, Takao Omori & Koji Kanemoto vs. Akira, Jyushin "Thunder" Lyger & Masahiro Chono [CMLL] Olimpico vs. Hijo del Fantasma [NJPW] IWGP Heavyweight Championship match: Yoshihiro Takayama vs. Shinsuke Nakamura © =Season 1 Episode 6= [CMLL] Mascara Dorada, La Mascara & La Sombra vs. Alebrije, Psicosis & Olimpico [NJPW] IWGP Heavyweight Championship match: Togi Makabe vs. Satoshi Kojima © =Season 1 Episode 7= [NJPW] IWGP Heavyweight Championship match: Hiroshi Tanahashi © vs. Shinsuke Nakamura [NJPW] Tama Tonga, Tiger Mask IV, Tomoaki Honma & Wataru Inoue vs. Gedo, Jado, Tomohiro Ishii & Yujiro Takahashi =Season 1 Episode 8= [NJPW] Koji Kanemoto & Ryusuke Taguchi vs. Kenny Omega & Taichi [NJPW] IWGP Junior Heavyweight Tag Team Championship: Apollo 55 (Prince Devitt & Ryusuke Taguchi) © vs. Averno & Ultimo Guerrero [NJPW] Mistico & Tiger Mask IV vs. Okumura & Tomohiro Ishii =Season 1 Episode 9= [CMLL] Angel Azteca, Angel de Plata & Angel de Oro vs. Cancerbero, Raziel & Virus [NJPW] "NJPW vs NOAH" match: Hiroshi Tanahashi (NJPW) vs. Go Shiozaki (NOAH) =Season 1 Episode 10= [NJPW] IWGP Heavyweight Championship match: Hiroshi Tanahashi vs. Keiji Muto © =Season 1 Episode 11= [NJPW] TAJIRI vs. Toru Yano [CMLL] Tiffany, Estrellita & Marcela vs. Princesa Sugehit, Princesa Blanca & Amapola [NJPW] IWGP Junior Heavyweight Championship match: Tiger Mask IV vs. Mistico © =Season 1 Episode 12= [NJPW] IWGP Heavyweight Championship match: Hiroshi Tanahashi © vs. Hirooki Goto =Season 1 Episode 13= [NJPW] Jyushin "Thunder" Lyger, Kushida, Mascara Dorada & Tiger Mask IV vs. Atlantis, Taichi, TAKA Michinoku & Valiente [NJPW] 3-way hardcore tag team match: NO LIMIT (Tetsuya Naito & Yujiro) vs. Bad Intentions (Giant Bernard & Karl Anderson) vs. Team 3D (Brother Devon & Brother Ray) =Season 1 Episode 14= [CMLL] La Mascara, Maximo & Sangre Azteca vs. Dragon Rojo Jr., Misterioso Jr. & Texano Jr. [NJPW] Hiroshi Tanahashi vs. Giant Bernard =Season 1 Episode 15= [NJPW] TNA World Heavyweight Championship match: Tetsuya Naito vs. Jeff Hardy © [CMLL] 10-minute time-limit "lightning" match: Polvora vs. Rush [NJPW] IWGP Jr. Heavyweight Tag Team Championship: Golden Lovers (Kenny Omega & Kota Ibushi) vs. Apollo 55 (Prince Devitt & Ryusuke Taguchi) © =Season 1 Episode 16= [CMLL] Magnus, Guerrero Maya Jr. & Fuego vs. Tiger, Doctor X & Loco Max [NJPW] Takashi Sugiura & Yoshihiro Takayama vs. Hirooki Goto & Kazuchika Okada =Season 1 Episode 17= [NJPW] "AJPW vs NJPW" tag team match: Masayuki Kono & Masakatsu Funaki (AJPW) vs. Blue Justice Army (Wataru Inoue & Yuji Nagata) (NJPW) [CMLL] Rush, Strong Man & La Sombra vs. Misterioso Jr., Texano Jr. & Psicosis =Season 1 Episode 18= [NJPW] Manabu Nakanishi, Masahiro Chono, Riki Choshu & Terry Funk vs. Abdullah the Butcher, Takashi Iizuka, Tomohiro Ishii & Toru Yano [NJPW] IWGP Tag Team Championship 3-way match: Muscle Orchestra (Manabu Nakanishi & Strong Man) vs. Beer Money (Robert Roode & James Storm) vs. Bad Intentions (Giant Bernard & Karl Anderson) © =Season 1 Episode 19= [NJPW] "NJPW vs NOAH" tag team match: Koji Kanemoto & Yuji Nagata (NJPW) vs. Atsushi Aoki & Go Shiozaki (NOAH) [NJPW] IWGP Junior Heavyweight Tag Team Championship match: Motor City Machine Guns (Alex Shelley & Chris Sabin) © vs. Apollo 55 (Prince Devitt & Ryusuke Taguchi) =Season 1 Episode 20= [CMLL] Mascara Dorada, La Sombra & Mistico vs. Dragon Rojo Jr., Ultimo Guerrero & Atlantis [NJPW] "NJPW vs NOAH" tag team match: Hirooki Goto & Shinsuke Nakamura (NJPW) vs. Mitsuharu Misawa & Takashi Sugiura (NOAH) =Season 1 Episode 21= [NJPW] IWGP Intercontinental Championship match: Toru Yano vs. MVP © [CMLL] 10-minute time-limit "lightning" match: Polvora vs. Rush [NJPW] IWGP Junior Heavyweight Championship match: Low-Ki vs. Tiger Mask IV © =Season 1 Episode 22= [NJPW] IWGP Heavyweight Championship match: Tetsuya Naito vs. Kazuchika Okada © [NJPW] "NJPW vs TNA" tag team match: Akira & Masahiro Chono (NJPW) vs. Beer Money (James Storm & Robert Roode) (TNA) =Season 1 Episode 23= [NJPW] CMLL World Welterweight Championship match: Mistico © vs. Mephisto [NJPW] IWGP Heavyweight Championship match: Takashi Sugiura vs. Hiroshi Tanahashi © =Season 1 Episode 24= [CMLL] Blue Panther, Brazo de Plata & La Sombra vs. Averno, Taichi & Mephisto [NJPW] IWGP Junior Heavyweight Tag Team Championship match: Apollo 55 (Prince Devitt & Ryusuke Taguchi) vs. No Remorse Corps (Davey Richards & Rocky Romero) =Season 1 Episode 25= [CMLL] Hijo del Fantasma, Toscano & Brazo de Plata vs. Atlantis, Dragon Rojo Jr. & Ultimo Guerrero [NJPW] Captain New Japan & Tama Tonga vs Kyosuke Mikami & Tomoaki Honma [NJPW] Hirooki Goto vs. Masato Tanaka =Season 1 Episode 26= [NJPW] IWGP Heavyweight Championship match: Minoru Suzuki vs. Hiroshi Tanahashi © [NJPW] Koji Kanemoto & Wataru Inoue vs. Jyushin "Thunder" Lyger & Takuma Sano =Season 1 Episode 27= [NJPW] Jun Akiyama, Manabu Nakanishi & Satoshi Kojima vs. Keiji Muto, Kenta Kobashi & Masahiro Chono =Season 1 Episode 28= [NJPW] Kazuchika Okada vs. TAJIRI [CMLL] 10-minute time-limit "lightning" match: Dragon Rojo Jr. vs. Valiente [NJPW] IWGP Heavyweight Championship match: Hiroshi Tanahashi vs. Shinsuke Nakamura © =Season 1 Episode 29= [NJPW] Giant Bernard vs. Minoru Suzuki [NJPW] TAJIRI vs. Hiroshi Tanahashi =Season 1 Episode 30= [CMLL] La Mascara, Mascara Dorada & La Sombra vs. Ephesto, Averno & Mephisto [NJPW] IWGP Junior Heavyweight Championship match: Kota Ibushi vs. Prince Devitt © =Season 1 Episode 31= [NJPW] Mitsuhide Hirasawa, Super Strong Machine & Wataru Inoue vs. Jyushin "Thunder" Lyger, Kazuchika Okada & Koji Kanemoto [CMLL] Magnus, Angel de Plata & Rey Cometa vs. Bobby Zavala, Skandalo & Loco Max [NJPW] CMLL World Welterweight Championship match: Ryusuke Taguchi © vs. Mascara Dorada

Have you been watching Channel 4's 'It was alright in the 1970s', Parv?

Holy shit!!!! Have Vince ever ever ever done a shoot before? I mean a proper one? Don't think so. Do you think this will be a proper shoot? I know Austin's usually good about getting to the point and cutting through bullshit, but it's on the Network and all.......

Nigel McGuinness probably deserves a mention too - He was in Belfast last year screening his documentary. Came across as really decent in the q and a afterwards.

Nicely put.

Daniel Bryan seems like a really good dude. Can't think of anything negative I've heard about him over the years.

Can I ask what people thought of Foley in 2008? I enjoyed it and felt he showed potential. And I wouldn't care for being over-produced either...

'Tony gave a lot less back but Jesse dominating this nice family guy who is trying to do his professional best is gold.' If you ever get to watching JBL/Cole in '06 - '07 you'll see a familiar dynamic, Parv.

Ok, the 'Vince screaming in everyone's ear' thing - when did it start? Or start to really hurt the commentary, anyway. For all the criticism WWE gets on various fronts, commentary isn't as closely studied as many other areas.

I've been going through some WWE 09-10 lately and haven't found the 619 offensive at all. I think it definitely could be in lesser hands - it's a credit to Rey that it works. Also, does his Elimination Chamber performance in 09 get much appreciation? I hadn't heard much talk about it and my God he was phenomenal.

His crippling insecurity is beyond tiresome for us at this point, but it drove him to where he is now (for better or worse). People talk about Bret taking himself too seriously, but it was that very fact that turned him into the superstar he was. Same with HHH, I think. And, as far as how he reacts to the B+ thing, can you imagine Vince taking it any better? Also, think of the situation he's in. He's under a sh*tload of pressure as the heir apparent, he's unproven as a CEO, he doesn't have any business admin background that Wall Street would prefer, the Network isn't doing what was promised. The poor bastard has to lash out somehow....