Cap

Same. In beginning my dives into Lucha and Joshi and rewatching a lot of All Japan and some New Japan I realized I knew enough to know that I didn't know enough to be happy with my own list. My list would have been more or less obsolete already as I have been continuing to watch Lucha this month. I could make cases for a hand full of wrestlers in each, but just not enough. If they remained full blind spots that would have been one thing, but I was too much in process of falling in love with some wrestlers and styles and not in enough to know what to do with them.

I wont be really too surprised if anyone in the top 10 (outside of Rey) is number one. I think Flair is the most likely given how the list has gone so far. I just see him on a huge number of ballots and I picture him getting a huge number of #1 votes. My dork heart hopes Danielson gets it. I think he has a pretty legit case, but I mostly hope based on him being probably my personal favorite and primarily responsible for me getting back into and staying into wrestling after I gave it up.

Given the flow of the talk I have seen over the last few months, I am a little surprised Jumbo made 11. Personally, I just got into him over the last year (more than just a match or two here and there) and really found myself surprised at how much I enjoy him, but he seems like a victim of timing. The proverbial pendulum might just be swinging the wrong way on him right now. I think Parv on the podcasts talked about this, people just aren't into the epic NWA championship/45 minute-hour long matches right now. It doesn't appear to have as much capital in the moment and that probably lost him a few spots on a lot of the ballots he was even on.

That is probably true, but I personally see that as a really incredible peak. When I was going to vote Eddie was never going to drop out of my top 10 and might have snuck into the top five. Everyone knows the case for his peak run (though I probably like it even more than most). I think his strength is in the emotion he could bring into a match, even if the match wasn't all that good. His ability to get real heat and commit to his character no matter how much he was getting shit on by the company (I am looking at you WCW). I even count the little indy run as sort of a feather in his cap. Him being there was such a jarring reminder of how much better an elite wrestler like Eddie was than even the really good indy guys at the time. He had a match with Doug Williams (who I know people have mixed feelings about) where he was just like 5 steps ahead of Williams the whole time but he worked soooo sooo hard to keep the match together and in the end it wasn't great but it served its purpose. I just think that even when he wasn't great he stood out as an overall performer who was working hard to make the most of his situation. Whenever I revisit his WCW cruiser run I am almost never disappointment, especially in what he is doing. To me, he is just what wrestling (at least in an American context) should be - playing the character at all times, paying attention to the details of the match, being entertaining, working the character into the ringwork, showing versatility, making the absolute most out of every single situation. He worked heel, face, and the tweener hybrid. He made some of the most over the top soap opera storylines ever work in the 2000s. He could stooge. He could get vicious. He had good matches not just in different countries but against wrestlers bringing a wide variety of styles and he always seemed committed to making wrestling fun while producing good matches. I think everyone ahead of him has a great case for the top 10, but Eddie is a guy I completely buy as a top wrestler.

Wait... was I not right? What am I missing? order. Ahhhhh.... gotcha. I won't nail this. but what they hey. 1. Flair 2. Hansen 3. Bryan 4. Misawa 5. Funk 6. Kobashi 7. Lawler 8. Kawada 9. Liger 10. Rey

Wait... was I not right? What am I missing? My edit was like 10 seconds after my post.

I kind of am still too, but I am getting out of it. Check out redbubble. They have a lot of designs that are more subtle. I had a William Regal shirt for a bit from there that just had brass knuckles and said "Villian" on it. I think they also have a "I Broke Wahoo's Leg" and a "Dusty Sucks Eggs" shirt. I think I might have to get the latter soon.

This is my favorite wrestling shirt I have by far, thought it doesn't fit quite like I like. It was what I had on at Mania XXX. This is my second favorite one. I wear it fairly regularly now. I don't really know about vintage shirts. Aside from prowrestlingtees.com I am not sure. I use redbubble sometimes. It is a site where designers upload their designs and they print shirts. Lots of people upload some unique wrestling designs. It isn't related to the wrestlers, so I don't buy from there as much.

I was really hoping Bock would make the top 10. I have always had a lot of time for him, but watching the 80s AWA and AJ (and even Memphis) sets, his stock has rocketed for me lately.

Watch his match with Kawada at CC 1995 and see if you think Khali could have done that. Yeah, that. Or the Misawa match. Or any of the tags he was in. Or like, the fucking Marufuji match. Taue was awesome and there's no way you could plug a random stiff like the Great fucking Khali into that scene and get the same result. That is utter, utter nonsense. Taue was fucking great and actively contributing to those matches as much as any of them. But because he's awkward and looks like Giant Baba, he gets no credit for it. Total bullshit. I would go as far as to saying that in some ways he is my favorite in some of the higher profile tag matches. To echo Thread Killer, it took me a minute to get into Taue, or more appropriately, to "get" Taue. He is my go to case study in needing to understand the psychology of a wrestling context to really understand what is happening. His '95 Champions Carinval final with Misawa is amazing. I also love love love his match with Kobashi for the GHC title, but then again I am a sucker for Kobashi's deathwish title run. Taue was fantastic and nuancing his role from match to match, series to series, and run to run. I haven't had the opportunity to go back and watch a ton in order, but I have watched stretches in order and I just love what he brings to a match, particularly with his timing and how expressive he can be with his movements. Once I got that his offense and the way he sold started to shine a lot more too.

No Order Flair Hansen Lawler Funk Misawa Kawada Mysterio Liger Bryan Kobashi EDIT: Forgot Kobashi

I doubt that is how it happened. There is definitely some implicit (but probably not intentional) dismissal of opinions. I can't speak for anyone else and wont pretend to, but I personally don't really feel like part of the community here. I feel welcome to come and post stuff, but not part of the community itself and I don't blame anyone for that at all. It is as much or more my fault as anyone, but it is the product of a few things that MIGHT shed light on what Grimmas is talking about. I feel like I haven't watched hardly anything compared to most of the regulars here. I feel like I have watched a lot but much of the conversation here reaches a level of detail that is hard to keep up with (dates, date ranges, holistic understanding of careers, incredible recall of spots, cards, drawing power, etc) and it can be intimidating. On top of that I do think there is probably a tendency among regulars and establish members to keep up with and respond to posts and posters they know or recognize. It is natural. I'll admit. I have posted a few lengthy things that got no response, more or less skipped over in the larger conversation. Honestly, it is fine. Maybe they were shit, maybe they weren't interesting, maybe they were things said by someone else six months earlier... I suspect it is just a natural flow of conversation in communities where people recognize one other. I am not particularly bothered by it, never went to an admin about it, but I recognized it and can imagine others would be bothered by it, even turned off. Finally, some regular posters are very blunt about dismissing certain things or ideas (not harsh, but blunt). Some of that I imagine is a joke or sarcasm that gets lost in translation, but some of it is just communication style. When you put that with how intimidating this community's knowledge can be and what are really natural ebbs and flows of conversation on a board like this, it isn't that crazy to think that people who lurk or are new might not feel like their opinions are valuable here. That all said, I also think that there is a lot of respect for people who have alternative or unpopular views so long as they are supported. There is definitely an effort to make people feel welcome and that should be recognized too. Ok, I am done. I am not sure if that was helpful in anyway. I do really enjoy the board and really appreciate the efforts of people to make wrestling and wrestling conversation available to people. That is just sort of my take on why people might not feel welcome.

For what it is worth, as a relatively new member who posts inconsistently at best, it is good to hear these sorts of posts that affirm a desire for this board to be open. I think it is unreasonable for a community that has spent time together and has people who invest massive amounts of time to be completely open in practice, so I do see some things that can be a turn off for new posters, but I don't really fault people for it. I think generally there is a desire to include more voices and enjoy wrestling here (at least I hope there is, that is why i stick around and post from time to time). Implicit exclusion is common in all groups, so it is just good to see explicit commitments to pushing back against it.

So we can get angry and disappointed all over again. I suppose remembering that the process itself was fun and valuable and picking up some perspective on what can actually be accomplished by the final list (presuming you don't just want an invited group of 20 people or so) is probably out of the question. I am not trying to be snarky, but for those who are genuinely disappointment by all this maybe just privately inviting the folk you really respect and know to bring their lists together would be helpful. Maybe that would provide the more fulfilling and maybe even more rigorous results some people are looking for.

It is unfortunate that this is upsetting people so much. I came late to the board and didn't vote, but just keeping up and thinking that I might turned me on to a ton of new wrestling and has me excited to view a lot more. There was so much talk of bias and the myriad reasons people might vote, so much discussion about the process. I guess I am a little surprised at how shocked some people are, especially after seeing how many ballots there were. That said, I know a lot of people have invested a lot of time and energy into this (and I am pretty grateful for it), so I guess frustration is natural. I just hope 10 years is long enough for people to forget how angry (or disappointment or however they describe it) they are.

Casas falling out of the top 20 is a shocker to me. I honestly was thinking he was going to break the top 10 after hearing some of the podcasts. He is one of the more easily translatable lucha workers too. Just surprising. I love Bret, Regal, Arn, and Savage, but I would have Casas over all of them by a country mile.

This also speaks to a distinction between inner biases and external or systemic biases. There is a big difference between the kinds of bias that delineate and stratify wrestling that we have seen, understand, and judged and the kinds of bias that are external from our judgements and have more to do with what we have access to (usually as a result of media technology and the business end of wrestling, particularly through the 90s). I have been really interested in that part of it. Some of maybe the broader patterns in the list seem to be highly (but certainly not exclusively) impacted by access. As you rightly allude to, it isn't necessarily a matter of doing one's homework. Almost every person I have heard or read walk through their list that started with the birth of this project admitted to some pretty sizable blind spots that they just couldn't get to. I am not sure anyone's blind spot is mainstream American wrestling between the 80s and today.

Discovering/watching new wrestling (and new wrestling styles) is one of the best things you can do for yourself. Enjoy this process.

Glad Windham made the top 25. What an incredibly fluid wrestler. He just did everything so well. It is kind of insane.

As much as I love Lawler's punch and perhaps no one used it better to create moments and tell stories, Dundee's combinations are probably my favorite punches in all of wrestling (sans MAYBE Sangre Chicana's haymaker left hand). He threw awesome punches and when he would put together those combos you could tell he knew what he was doing. That combination of technique and ability to throw a "working punch"brought a whole different kind of legitimacy to the match for me. So so so good.

That is incredible. I love Casas. There are very few people who are just more entertaining, who "get" how to elevate whatever match they are in, wherever they are on a card, whatever context... he just gives it a little extra in almost every case.

I am really interested in getting into shoot style, mostly based on the talk/debate about Volk Han and Tamura in the podcasts surrounding this list. I really haven't dabbled at all and it will probably be another year or or so. I am diving into lucha and joshi now and will probably do shoot and/or world of sport next. Samoa Joe is a guy I think will see his stock rise over time, even if he doesn't add much to it. I think his work will hold up and the vast majority of it is on tape. Plus, a lot of these indy guys have just endless shows on tap that aren't well publicized or circulated so I really wonder if there will be a wave or revisiting some of the rarer footage down the road.

I actually see the Angle/Eddie matches as similar to the Shawn/Hunter matches, in that they have bad matches, but they also have more good matches that seemed to get drowned out by the bad for whatever reason. I think the WMXX match is awesome. Summerslam 2004 sucked, and the matches around that period aren't great (although their 2/3 Falls match from then...the first fall of that match is outstanding). They had a SD match in 2002 during the Six period that wasn't good, but they did have a SD match in 2005 that was really good. So it swings. Most people remember the bad stuff they did, whereas I actually remember the good ones more. Ohh I agree completely. They had good matches and they had stinkers. They just don't live up to my memory of them. I used to think the WMXX math was one of my favorites ever and in hindsight it is really good, but not close to my lofty thoughts on first (and maybe second) watch around the time it happened. The summerslam match is almost painful to watch, though it has its moments. That one in 2005 from SD is probably my favorites of the ones I have recently rewatched. I thought that was an excellent match. This is probably my bias as much as anything, but I think the matches they excelled in where Eddie matches, worked the way Eddie thrives. The matches that sucked (especially that SummerSlam match) were more Angle matches, working toward his strengths a little bit. The WM match was a little of both and came out pretty good. The 4/14/2005 SD match and the Summerslam match feel like night and day to me. One drags and is way to hung up on holds that don't really go anywhere and the other is all about the chess match and the reverses and doing everything with purpose. Hey, hats off to Angle for the good ones too... I just feel generally disappointment by Angle as time goes by. LIke I said though, that might shift the other way one day.

Those Angle rankings are mystifying to me. Top three blows my mind. To each their own I guess, but even when I generally liked Angle and he was sort of unique in his context he was just never the best wrestler in the world (in my eyes). I really don't dislike him and part of this might be just the ebbs and flows of my own interests, but he just doesn't hold up that well for me on recent and relatively recent watches. I love his intensity and the urgency of his matches, but just don't like the way many of them progress. I recently rewatched his series with Guerrero and didn't like it nearly as much as I once did. His dogged determination to spend half the match in the ankle lock was soul sucking. That is coming from a full blown Eddie Guerrero mark who thinks he is truly elite watching what I count as prime Eddie work getting swallowed up by the wet blanket that is Kurt Angle.

Looking at it dispassionately, it's hard to see how Pillman had a better career than Jericho. We've seen some very short peaks drop today -- Rude at the extreme end, but Pillman doesn't have that many more years. They both made my list though, Rude at #83 and Pillman at #96. Pillman lacking those signiture 4.75 or 5 star matches. Although he has a lot of quality in WCW. I am not sure Pillman had the better career. Injuries made sure that really isn't that much of a question, but the positioning still makes me somewhat happy. Jericho is a guy that doesn't hold up as well to me. Part of that might be the ebbs and flows of my interests and part of it is certainly his recent run souring me on him a bit, but even going back to some of the higher points I haven't enjoyed him as much in the last year or so. Don't get me wrong, I still like Jericho. I don't think he is shit or anything. His stock is lowering in my estimation as I don't think what he does holds up to the other guys in his various "classes" (the folks he gets lumped in with) quite as well. Pillman on the other hand is a guy I grow to like more over time. One of the things I value a lot is a charicter coming alive in the match itself, in how it is worked and laid out and pillman did that well later in his career, so I even find some of his lesser work to be a lot of fun and really good for what it was supposed to accomplish. I also really value creativity and people who think outside the box, get innovative, and stay ahead of the curve. Another Pillman trait. I am just happy to see the skills he had being noticed. You are right, their careers don't really compare by virtually any measure we might use to objectively parse out "greatest". However, this project is telling us lots of things, "objectively greatest wrestler" clearly isn't one of them. Neither would be on my list probably, I am just happy Pillman beat him out here.