Cap

That's my thought too. It's become too big a story for someone not to cash in on it. Assuming of course that some clever promoter can talk Vader and Ospreay into doing proper business, of course. I don't even think it would be that hard. I obviously don't know either, but it strikes me that it would be great for the budding Osprey brand and Vader would love to get high-ish profile match. Plus, it doesn't take a rocket scientist (which neither is) to figure out they could probably have a really fun little match, at least more fun than it probably has any business being. Even without the hype, I'd want to watch that. But yeah, its only good as an wrestling match (with maybe a few work-shoot moments). Anything else would be a nightmare.

I have only been here a year (and very on and off), but I find any notion that this would be remotely impact beyond the boards here and a few peripheral circles related to boards kind of insane… and never got that feeling that was the intent. Hell, the ballot number was GREAT, and that tells you all you need to know about how representative or vital this might be outside this bubble. It wasn't a representative sample of anything beyond a population of wrestling fans with an inclination to critically engage wrestling. The project itself took on the culture of PWO when it took on a level of detail and content output that is really going to only appeal fans with a certain level of investment. Even among wrestling fans that is a small slice of the pie. I have a few friends who like wrestling and only one of them (the one who told me about this board in the first place) would have ANY interest in any of this. But that is the point of boards like PWO and the podcasts, to provide outlets for fans of wrestling with a certain level of passion and a desire to channel that into critical engagement. Honestly, for me it was a matter of timing. I was sort hitting a surge in my wrestling fandom right around the time I had chunks of time free up. If I have come to this board 3-4 years ago I would have either been overwhelmed or just rolled my eyes checked out. I have talked about it elsewhere, but the project has been amazing for me as someone who entered at the very tail end. It has given me a ton of motivation to watch new stuff, given me a few different road maps, and provided me with TONS of audio material for my bikerides. I basically got into Lucha and Joshi because of various podcasts and discussions stemming from this project and now I am in love with both. It made me want to watch WoS and Shoot Style. It motivated me to rewatch some stuff and get more into the territory stuff. It made me think critically about what I like in wrestling and what I don't. It challenged me build cases for wrestlers on my own (even though I didn't vote), which I find to be a valuable mental exercise and doesn't take away from how I enjoy wrestling at all. If anything it made me appreciate different takes on wrestling that I may have been dismissive of before. I know that isn’t “outside the bubble”, but it may be somewhat representative of the larger value of something like this in the internet age. As people discover this space organically there is now a ton of fairly well organized discussion archived. This is not the kind of project you can just throw someone who isn't involved or hasn't found their way here into and expect them to like. It is a varied and multifaceted project that produced a ton of content. For fans that are interested in ready in that sort of examination, I think this offers a lot. I imagine there are fans that will sort of stumble upon this stuff for the next few years and maybe pick their way through some of it and discover lots of cool stuff. I don't think you are going to find some "measure" of external influence for this, but I imagine it will have some – albeit inconsistent – staying power. Hell even if the board is gone in 10 years and a whole new board uses this as a reference point for another project, that seems cool to me.

If nothing else, at least one person (its me) - who probably would not have otherwise - will make their future son(s) or daughter(s) watch Shinobu Kandori, and Sangre Chicana matches (among others) because of the discoveries made through this project over the last year. If that isn't victory I don't know what is.

First and foremost, ugh... all this whole non-story needed was an intergenerational twitter battle to make me REALLY not care. I do think some indy promoter HAS to put this match on sometime soon. That said, my money i son the old man in a real fight.

I think it was an attempt at self deprecating humor, that HE is dyslexic and confused by the demand for storytelling.

Sure, in that there are still people with high investments in wrestling that use the internet to talk about it, but "IWC" feels pretty irrelevant to me anymore. Coming together via internet and common interest is par for the course now. It made sense when the internet was allowing a dispersed population with a common interest to come together in new ways, but wielding it as a singular entity has always been a point of confusion. No "community" disagrees on more than than the "IWC" yet the term gets thrown around as a singularity. It is either used as a strawperson to tear down or a vague source of credibility to back a claim about "what fans want". People just use it however it is most convenient to them. As a descriptor of diverse fans coming together through digital media, sure it exists. But as a population anyone can make much of a claim about, that is used to describe a group with coherent characteristics or tastes like this, it is dumb and dated. To swing this back to topic, like Loss said, this seems like Osprey knows what he is doing though. He knows he can keep the conversation about him going, keep getting eyes on the match (and his other matches). Maybe in that I was wrong about "IWC". It seems pretty tactical to call out the "IWC" for it, part of the troll job even. I have actually seen folks commenting elsewhere that they felt like he was alienating fans by not taking them seriously, while others turned around and chimed in once more about the merits of his work. It was over, but he brought it back. By dumb luck and frustration over repeated questions or by strategic timing, he brought it back.

I can't tell if Will Osprey is trolling internet fans (my gut feeling says yes) or just not nearly as clever as he thinks. I mean, I think the spirit of what he is getting at is right, but this was unnecessary and misguided. Also, how is the IWC still a term with any consequence in people's minds?

I assume quite a few will be signed, but this also seems to be part of the new WWE PR wing (and to an extent the evolution of the product as a whole) that is reaching out to the indy-wrestling world and the internet fan. With unlimited (more or less) space to produce and screen new wrestling on the network, even if they didn't sign a single wrestler, putting something like this on the network and under the WWE banner is still beneficial. Plus, worst case scenario it is a bit, well publicized tryout and anyone who gets over and performs well could wind up with a contract eventually.

I was just talking about this with my buddy (who is not that high on Casas) the other day. I am still getting into lucha. I have watched a lot of Dandy and Casas, mostly their top matches, but other stuff too. It really is a peak vs longevity argument. I love Dandy at his best and I don't think Casas has a match that I would put above my 2 favorite Dandy matches. I was kind of thinking maybe I really do value peak and then I watched Casas vs Santo from the 80s set and I LOVED Casas in that match. I would say Casas' natural charisma would put him over the Dandy on the whole for me. He would rank higher if I mad a GWE list, but as far as personal favorites go it is kind of a toss up. Dandy at his best has the ability to take the drama of a match to another level. In short, I don't really have an answer, but it is something I have been thinking about a bit lately.

Ohhh yeah, I wanted to thank those who worked to get this up to. I have been looking forward to seeing it. It is a shame there seems to be a bit of a lull in the board after the singles list because I thought the tag list was really compelling with some potential talking points. Nice work all around.

My wife is Canadian and she has some extended family out in Saskatchewan. I don't remember what we were watching one evening but Chris Jericho once said of Brock Lesnar - selling the fact that this dude does not like being around people - "Nobody moves TO Saskatchewan". She thought it was the funniest thing and still says that when Brock comes up for any reason.

I just watched this match for the first time and really wasn't that into until kind of the last half. Somehow the same chaos and seemingly violence for violence sake that they started with is the thing I got kind of lost in eventually. I came in with high hopes based on reviews and found myself kind of turned off by it. Not that it was too violent or anything. I just felt like the violence wasn't really being grounded by any of the little things that could hold a match together. However, somewhere around when they were hoisting part of the rail in I started to get more interested and started to buy the story they were selling me. That was when the barely controlled violence and the next-level hate clicked. By the end, its absolute chaos. I loved Ito's duck under suplex to turn the tide near the end. The double stomp off the top of the cage made me actually scream "what the fuck" in an empty house by myself. It had some spots where people just jumped up out of nowhere that bothered me a little (going beyond the joshi "no-sell" and GOGOGO stuff I see people complain about). That kept it away from a perfect score for me. It kind of felt like the match ECW always wanted to put on. Like if you transplanted this into ECW it would probably be the best match in the company's history (or at least top 5). Overall, I really liked it and would recommend it.

That list turned out pretty solid. What a showing for the Midnights as a franchise (and Eaton as a tag wrestler)! 2/3 of the top spots ain't bad I used to be a little low on the Rock-n-Rolls. I liked them when I was young but got really tired of them. Recently I have sort of been in awe of them again as I rewatched some stuff and saw them for the first time in places like Mid-South. If I had voted I probably would have had them around 5, but they would be #1 or #2 if I were voting today. I am both surprised that the Briscoes turned up where they did, and a little disappointed they weren't higher. I am honestly surprised The Holy Demon Arm weren't higher. I pegged them as #3 at WORST. I know the run was relatively short, but Hansen and Gordy were great. Gordy was my favorite Hansen and I would have had them pretty high, possibly too high.

CWF and PWX are no worse than top 5 indies in the U.S. right now in my opinion. Great companies for different reasons. CWF was mentioned above and I think if you factor in everything - production, announcing, quality short term and long term storylines, talent and guys filling their respective roles, venue/environment - they might be the best promotion in the World right now. I just think they do a better job executing their vision better than anyone else. PWX is awesome in a different way but well worth checking out. Where are you moving to in NC? Boone, NC. I have heard good things (here, podcasts, friends) about CWF especially. Once I get settled I plan to try to check out shows as much as I can.

Super helpful. I have been watching a lot of lucha lately and picked much of this up, but there was still a lot learned in the short piece.

Well at least we can be confident that the competent and always-creative writing for the WWE main roster will make him interesting again.... wait, that doesn't sound right.

As an aside, I am moving from Utah to North Carolina next month and I am SSSSOOOOOOOOO excited about being much closer to so much good indy wrestling again. My wife... not as excited about that part.

I thought the first few times he did it he was a bit more aggressive. he moved with more urgency and he had that "BALOR MAD" fireup near the end where I think he thinks he is doing heelish stuff, but he is really just kind of acting a little mean. Then he more or less adopted that into all his matches and it lost any of its impact.

I thought the show was pretty good, but a predictable step back after the last one. Almas vs Dillinger was better than I thought it would be. I honestly thought Dillinger's popularity was going to derail Almas a bit, but his showcase spots stuck and the live crowd helped put him over. I like that Dillinger didn't come off a complete loser here. This felt like a match they could run back if they wanted to make it a feud with no issues, even though they likely wont. Tag match was fire. It is has been beaten to death, but those teams are really good together. I am glad the revival went over clean. I am a sucker for heels winning clean from time to time. This wasn't that much of a shock to be honest. I thought they kind of hinted at the Revival getting it back with them having the shock loss on TV and being more present than AA recently. The match itself was really good. They sprinked in some AA spot moments that might have bothered in in another match, but really acted as punctuation in this one. This was probably a better match than their last one, but with less emotional investment. Just an overall great performance. I was into the run in after too. I really liked Nakamura vs Aries. It wasn't either man's absolute best, but it was fun and different. Aries getting so much of the match was fine. None of the critiques about him not selling the ribs or not getting heat really bothered me. Aries probably could turn up the heel a bit, but he has been sort of booked as face to this point. He has been a heel in a face spot more or less, so I think he walked that line pretty well. To me, he isn't a full heel right now and so him playing that in the match might have prematurely turned him. I assume they have plans for his full switch or maybe they are slow burning it. Either way, this was nuanced work to my eye. I thought the way he executed the story of staying just ahead of Nak, of having him well scouted played well into who and what Aries is, especially in NXT. The end did feel abrupt. I loved the DVD on the apron, but once the finish came shortly after it lost some sting. Nia vs Asuka was fine. I want to like Nia more than I do. I like her in theory. I like the set of tools she can bring to a match. I like the idea of how good a match with her could be. However when I am actually watching her she loses me. There is something about her. Her selling bothers me and she still seems more limited than I imagine her being in my head. She is improving for sure, but every time I see her I get less interested in her. I imagine one day in the future she will just click with me where her work catches up to the expectations I have and I will be on board. This felt like Asuka working REALLY hard. It was a fine match and a good story. Cage match. I liked it a little better than most I think. I thought it was good, but not great. I have been off the Balor bandwagon for a bit. I agree with most people. He needs to work a match differently as the demon. I thought he kind of did that at first, but not anymore. Honestly, he overuses it to. Its basically "takeover" Balor. It doesn't feel special anymore. Joe is the man right now. he is killing it. I thought Joe really carried the final stretch of the match and that is what I liked about it. I also hate escape cage matches, but I am at least glad this ended with a definitive pin. Not only that, I am glad the pin came because Balor was trying to escape. I am sure they didn't mean this, but that just plays right into what I saw in their interview. Balor was being whiny and here is trying to get away from Joe to win. Joe was being confident and here he grabbed Balor, planted him in the ring and pinned him.

I also hope they let them bleed, but I doubt it. My wife's birthday is tonight so I am going to be avoiding the wrestleweb until tomorrow morning sometime.

I am really into the rumors of End coming to NXT this fall and Strong and Moose being on the radar. They are definitely loading back up. I kind of hope we get an End vs Nakamura match before Nak gets called up. I am really looking forward to this cage match. Joe is really good in a cage and this should be a great blowoff match. Im surprisingly not as stoked about the rest of the card, including Nak vs Aries. I know it will deliver, but for some reason it just hasn't jumped off the screen to me. Maybe they will shock us, but it kind of feels like a pit stop on the way to Nakamura vs Joe.... a pretty well put together pit stop, but a pit stop none the less.

No your thinking of the 8/30/86 bloodbath match which was in Vegas as well. That actually might be my favorite tag match of all time. I looked it up and the cage matches I was referring to were the 12/25/86 in St. Paul and the Vegas one was 1/17/87. They are both pretty great. The formula for the Vegas one is more of a typical face in peril where the other had the Rockers beating the crap out of Rose and Somers from the get go until they turn it around. Interesting formula in that one. Ahhh, yeah, that 8/30/86 match is absolutely tops to me. Its for another topic, but that also ranks pretty high for me as far as tag team matches goes, probably my favorite or second favorite American tag team match. It is just a fantastic bit of wrestling. I just had the location for the 1/17/87 match wrong for some reason - thanks. I too prefer that one I think, not by much, but a little. I like the variety the other one provides, but if the Midnight Rockers are anything they are faces in peril just waiting to make a bloody comeback. The funny thing is, I really wanted one of those cage matches to be the best match of their series. They just set the bar too damn high earlier.

Ugh... forgot that one too! So so good. I saw that match hung over a few months back for the first time and i think it actually cured my hang over. It was amazing.

I may be missing one, but I think the Vegas match was the non-cage match (but pretty easily the best overall match to me), at least on the 80s set. I have the locations for the cage matches on the 80s set as St. Paul and Ashwaubenon, WI... but I could be wrong on those. Not that any of that matters, really. The matches between those teams were all great and all their cage matches are worth watching.

As much as I like HBK/Taker HiaC, I actually prefer the first Brock/Taker HiaC match. I thought that was one of the best and most strategically violent matches in the modern WWE. It is my favorite HiaC match and probably top 5 cage matches for me I have not seen LOC vs Kaoru/Watanabe match yet... but I may have to get on that tonight. I completely forgot about Duggan s Dibiase. Ugh, it is so good, so much drama. The 1/17/87 Somers/Rose vs Rockers match is worth mentioning. I know folks are mixed on those cagematches from the set, but I prefer the second one by just a bit.