BrianB

Good stuff.

Yes, it's possible. You can target the joke to ridicule Trump, people with that attitude, use it as a non-sequitor, etc.. Depending on if it's in a comedy act and the comedians style, it can be done with irony. Some people's schtick is that they are buffoons, morons, backwards, crazy, off the wall, offend everybody, etc. Styles' schtick isn't any of those. And again, the context and punch to the whole thing was "hey, she looks so good the President would go right up and sexually assault her by grabbing her pussy" ...omg! the extreme factor! now Imma awkwardly segue-way into calling Hathaway a pussy.

I believe in the sentiment, Loss and I agree, but in this case he should just be fired. I can see why a promoter would want him fired. But a fan? It's not enough to just call him out on his bullshit and ridicule him? You've gotta demand he'd lose his job with every wrestling promotion he's associated with, not just the one where he made the comments and acted out?

There you go again. First, you keep saying it's obvious, except it's not obvious from the words he said and the actual clip if you watch it. Second, you also continue to ignore how deliberately disobeying a promoter's orders and then posting a self-righteous littered with lies non-apology, apology letter would look to other wrestling promotions he was associated with. So wrestling twitter is so self-righteous now they take it upon themselves to hound wrestling promoters to fire people who .. disobeyed their boss in another company? Are we happy with that? Seems pretty invasive to me. And not only that, it casts all the people from twitter like a collective bunch of petty tell-tale tits. If I ever bunk off work I better not tell them I guess, lest they start telling every university around not to employ me. It's CLEARLY about the offensiveness of the comment. There is literally no other narrative you can weave about this that doesn't make wrestling twitter seem like the biggest bunch of cunts of all time. So tread carefully. On the hoopla, I'm not speaking for wrestling twitter. I am speaking for myself and have tried to keep things on the substance, not the ready-made, distorting glass that a many people want to pigeonhole viewing this issue through. If I've got to speculate based on what I've seen and read, then I'd speculate a bunch of the Styles backlash is about the comments themselves and some people having a disproportionate get out the pitchforks mentality because its twitter and that's what people do on there. And some of it is how lots of fans hate Joey Styles for varying reasons and this is a reason to go after him, so they don't have to see anymore of a guy who they think is a hack. Personally, I don't really about evolve and don't watch it. I watched the clip. I thought it was a joke in very poor taste, poorly executed, and a head-scratching thing for a non-heel announcer to be doing. When I found out Styles was actually openly disobeying his employer's orders on air (and not doing so in a very entertaining way either) and that he issued an egotistical and weak apology letter after the fact, I can completely see why a promoter would shit-can him...even a promoter in another company, because he's unreliable. I'm not going to advocate that any employer should fire him, but it's perfectly reasonable to me why they would, especially if he's a prick when approached about this. However, any promoter who caves solely because wrestling twitter is calling for/"pressuring" them to axe Joey Styles probably isn't going to be successful or last very long. This is wrestling. If a promotion wants to, they could, god help us all, try to turn this into some sort of worked shoot angle down the line. Evolve could've done that instead of firing him too. You're going to tell me somebody couldn't have done some angle and set up a match where the selling point was Joey Styles 'the misogynist' was going to get his ass beat with stiff weapon shots and have to bump? They absolutely could.

There you go again. First, you keep saying it's obvious, except it's not obvious from the words he said and the actual clip if you watch it. Second, you also continue to ignore how deliberately disobeying a promoter's orders and then posting a self-righteous littered with lies non-apology, apology letter would look to other wrestling promotions he was associated with.

Is it really about being offended and more about Joey you are an asshole for saying someone is so attractive that she is a likely candidate to be sexually assaulted. People use the term offense, when it's more "fuck you are a sleazeball". I think part of the reason the anti-PC crowd has jumped on this Joey Styles is because they think it's more than just people saying "you're a sleazeball" it's, hey, we're going to tell you that you're an asshole and we're going to advocate to get you put out of work. In other words, the response is disappropriate to the alleged wrong. The reaction isn't just "hey, here's why you're wrong and you need to have my attitude about this"...it's you need to be publicly shamed for the comments you made. And, furthermore, those merit you getting punished economically as well in order to get the message. However, for reasons I've said previously, I think the reality of the Styles situation is more complicated than the over-simplified pre-conception that many people had when they heard about this and now seem to want to continue to see. It's not simply that some off color joke that was offensive to a segment of the audience and got shit-canned for it.

I think that's a false dilemma. It's possible for it to be a combination. And it's the combination that makes the firing fair enough to me. I also bristle a bit at the suggestion from some it's gotta be about offensiveness. I'm not personally offended by the joke, but it's still way out of line for what I think are clear, obvious reasons, which Bix and others have highlighted. When someone deliberately disobeys their boss, does it in a flaunting, throw it in their face for all to see way, and not only disobeys by making a political joke, but also a joke where the punchline is that someone would get sexually assaulted bcs they're attractive...that's a confluence of a lot of bad stuff in the context of "disobeying the boss." 'm not sure it matters, but the joke didn't get over either.I'm just saying that if it was a different milder political joke no one would give a shit. Also, the more people weep about not getting called pussies, the more other people will want to CALL THEM pussies. Just basic psychology. Tell a kid they can't do something and their impulse is to do it, forbidden fruit. Trump was the guy who no one was meant to vote for. Turns out lots of Americans don't really like being told what to do. So they got in the booth and did their own personal little Stone Cold moment. Basic facts. I'd talked about which hills to die on before, picking and choosing battles. I've said before where all this leads. Now literally Donald Trump is the fucking president and Britain is leaving the EU. And there are still people saying "hey, don't use the word pussy" in earnest like that's the important thing going on. How about waking up and smelling the coffee and confronting exactly what that behaviour does and where it leads. I mean for fuck's sake, look at the year we've had and here people are arguing about the word "pussy". Jesus Christ, can't take it anymore. Also, I want to be clear. This is not a "meltdown", I'm not losing it. I'm angry at the extent to which sensible discussion in every realm has been hijacked by SJW-ism. Make no mistake, blindly dogmatic PC policing is part of the confluence of problems I blame for the present situation. And I get angry about it because it comes from people who are meant to be on my team, meant to be clever, meant to represent, broadly speaking, the left. Get your heads out of your arses for five minutes to see what where that method of approaching the problem gets you. I'm not apologising for this post. Someone has to say it. And at the same time, fuck Joey Styles. Okay, sure. Did you mean to quote someone else? I think what you just typed was more talking past than talking toward the points I made in my post. Suggesting pussy as a putdown wasn't anywhere on my list of why I'm fine with Joey Styles getting sacked. The joke was out of line because it was Styles saying that a female announcer looked good enough to be sexually assault-able. FWIW, I don't care about using "pussy" as an insult or agree that calling someone a pussy as a putdown is "problematic." If someone finds it that way, I think they should a) get their priorities in order and b. would ask why they watch wrestling to begin with? Wrestling feuds and matches are usually all about bullying and ultimately resolving most disagreements with violence. Moreover, the characters and storylines, even today but especially in the past, are usually inextricably wrapped up with ideas about masculinity and standing up for yourself. IOW, anybody who seriously wants to police all these things is going to constantly find stuff that is going to work them into a shoot.

What's a tag except one or more additional punchlines? Styles calling Hathaway a pussy is the tag/punchline to the initial set-up Hathaway throws at him. The Trump would is it's own joke/punchline in the middle that functions as transitioning to the punchline that Hathaway is a pussy. But the "Trump would" thing was clearly a punchline. Syles starts talking about how he isn't supposed to get political, but he's got a live mic, don't tell him what to do, then he seemingly moves to complimenting the ring announcer. Except, *surprise* it's not misdirection or him moving on, it was his set-up for making a comment about how she's hot enough to where somebody would sexually assault her by grabbing her pussy, and because he wants to flaunt orders he's going to shoehorn in Donald Trump so his comments are loosely "political". That's it's own punchline.

I would argue they're two separate jokes. Strictly speaking, a joke setup is factual, and the punchline is the embellishment - the laugh line. The setup is "Joanna, you look lovely tonight." The line about Trump grabbing pussy is the punch line to that setup, and then there's an attempt at a second punch line by turning the word on Hathaway. This is how I saw it as well. I personally don't care about the second joke. The ham-fisted transition there is the issue, and Styles hit almost all the snags he could along the way.

I don't think this is true. Most people want common sense to prevail rather than hysteria. And to be able to have a bit of a laugh once in a while. (Entirely separate from specifics of Styles case, which I don't care about) So Heenan nor Ventura wouldn't fly today and so would get fired as soon as they made a taco joke about Santana. That's progress? Reckon Tito would have a bad word to say about either of them? Did any Mexicans suffer? We'd have been denied a lot of great moments and for what? No one gave a shit. Do you give a shit now? Just harmless little gags is all they were. I'm not seeing things clearly, I guess, because my child mind in its formative years was polluted by Bugs Bunny and his hate speech. Ban that sick filth! Foghorn Leghorn and Pepe le Pew were misogynists. Elmer Fudd never once stopped to check his privilege. No, what we want is Michael Cole sitting next to a neutered robot version of Jerry Lawler ... forever. Heenan and Jesse are heel color guys. IMO, that gives them way more latitude to say offensive things, especially since the heel gets his comeuppance.

I think that's a false dilemma. It's possible for it to be a combination. And it's the combination that makes the firing fair enough to me. I also bristle a bit at the suggestion from some it's gotta be about offensiveness. I'm not personally offended by the joke, but it's still way out of line for what I think are clear, obvious reasons, which Bix and others have highlighted. When someone deliberately disobeys their boss, does it in a flaunting, throw it in their face for all to see way, and not only disobeys by making a political joke, but also a joke where the punchline is that someone would get sexually assaulted bcs they're attractive...that's a confluence of a lot of bad stuff in the context of "disobeying the boss." 'm not sure it matters, but the joke didn't get over either.

Maybe. Especially in terms of just picking and choosing for the moment, he copied that Harley Race look for awhile too with those mutton chops. His wrestlemania special entrances lately have been very heavy on the cosplay level....he came out as the Terminator recently for christ sakes and Conan. I don't even know exactly what to call his entrance this past year....besides over the top.

If only this were true. Props for using irony correctly. I guess that's to be expected given your line of work, however. I can definitely see this POV and its value. I usually look first at a review or two, and then look at the match. I like to think I'm usually unbiased and single-minded enough to make up my own mind, but sometimes I'm sure other reviews have impacted my ratings. I think usually because they "stick" on what I've actually watched, but sometimes, of course, that can be a bad thing. I still like Flair-Race from Starrcade 1983 a lot, and that's one where I probably benefited from watching it cold and not read as much about Kiniski guest reffing, which is hard to un-see now, even if lots of older matches have bad refs (though usually in a different, less intrusive way.) Usually I'm more likely to seek out some reviews if I'm visiting a feud or territory or setting I'm unfamiliar with, so I can get some context to what I am seeing (as the audience might have) and understanding how it's worked in light of that.

Here's an eyebrow raising tweet https://twitter.com/davemeltzerWON/status/794265889302396928 I think he gave that match ***1/4 in the WO. I don't even know what to say if he's being serious.

Debatable for sure. Maybe Natalya at Takeover or Roadblock. I'd lean Roadblock I think between the two. But she put on solid marquee matches with Becky and Nikki too in the past year or so. I know some people were fans of some of those Paige matches as well.

Charlotte has definitely been pushed stronger. She constantly gets long talking segments and has won tons of feuds and PPV matches. But she does get heat on her own. At first, I had that same criticism, though I was very impressed with how Ric Flair managed to pull off being a heel manager in 2016. But she's gotten better in the role over time. Did you see HIAC? She was hated by that crowd. She regularly gets booed on RAW, and booed way more than Kevin Owens. Bayley is floundering some, and the RAW segment last night was so-so, but Charlotte got heat in that segment too. I agree, however, about how it is a notch in Sasha's cap that she's gotten over on the main roster despite a very iffy push for most of the time. That's not the question, though, the question is who is a better worker right now. Charlotte's been in the better matches lately over the last year. Sasha is the performer with more upside, imo, but it remains to be seen.

That's way too far. Currently...I mean they're alright. Their act is getting kind of tired and played out. They've had a rough stretch from the Vaudevillians, to the Wyatts, to the Club. Personally, I'm disappointed WWE isn't going ahead and doing Enzo and Cass vs. New Day. I'd be more into that program than vs. Cesaro and Sheamus, even though the matches would be worse.

I think it's because most people think that Sasha should have retained on Sunday. I personally think so too. I'll also say that for as touch and go and iffy as WWE has presented and done Sasha's character and promos, to her credit, she's still over. She dealt with on-off TV pushes and then bad scripting, and was more resilent to it than Bayley appears to be so far.

Good show. I didn't get why this episode got a pass in the Death of WCW either. It's not the worst Russo, but it's still awful. If you want to really punish yourselves, on future Ru-views do Starrcade 1999 and the Nitro from the next night. I would rather drink drano than have to sit through that atrocity again.

I'll go Charlotte, who I thought Charlotte was a bit better in their HIAC match. It's pretty close though. Charlotte is definitely a better character heel than Sasha is a babyface, atm, on promos especially. To me, Charlotte's mannerisms and antics are what put it over the top, especially as Sasha can be reckless with herself. As a heel worker, I'm still more partial to Sasha's heel work than Charlotte's, however.

The funniest part is that the Tokyo Dome isn't the best venue to find great japanese matches. Like, at all. I think it was hilarious because of how big Dave likes those big Japanese men doing big spots, especially on their heads, but that's also quite true.

Matt D, great point about goals. Thinking about that deeply is likely to only help someone with their show and help their audience get the goal and objectives of each show. I'm shooting from the sidelines, admittedly, but going to dissent slightly from the seemingly prevailing opinion. Good points here. This reminded me of a segment I watched on a documentary about Stanley Kubrick's movies that seems fitting for this topic. Authenticity is important, but ultimately, to paraphrase Stanley Kubrick when talking to Jack Nicholson on The Shining, being compelling or interesting is more important.That doesn't mean somebody podcasting should do a bad hot take talk radio impression or something, but it does mean they need to work to capture people's attention. We're living in a world of a zillion podcasts and multiple media distractions you've got to seem special to break thorough all the noise and into the regular viewing/listening habits that people already have. Definitely, when talking about wrestling podcasting in particular, I'd add and am in agreement with others that being informative is a key component. If you work hard to prepare for each show that usually translates to the show and, as I listener, I always can respect that. That's not limited to research, dropping sound clips, for instance, is another way to show you've put in time and effort and thought about how to pull off integrating things into your show. Plus, I think the vast majority of the wrestling podcast audience is going to really want and need a host to be informed in order to keep listening over time. There are lots of different approaches and styles to podcasting, just as there are numerous styles to interviewing--Letterman, Stern, Cavett, Rose, King, Carson, Maron, Fallon, etc.. Who you are naturally probably should inform those decisions when you do a show because to make a pretentious sounding but accurate analogy...more often than not an artist's personality will come across in the art that they create over time. Enjoying what you're doing should translate and help, plus it's a good reason to do it to begin with. And make no mistake, ultimately, podcasting is a bit of a performance art for the audience you're looking to cultivate. Most people are going to need to feel some type of connection to your product to keep tuning in, as opposed to just appreciating it.

I'd commend this as well. If you want to nit pick, maybe the 3 suplexes hope/comeback spot could have come earlier in the match rather than closer to the end. But Sasha did a strong job to where most of her offense did not rely on back strength. Charlotte just kept focusing her attack, and eventually it paid off.

After replying in the Meltzer thread, I wonder how people's assessment's of the Last Battle of Atlanta correlates to their assessment of the women's HIAC match. I've watched it twice in 2 days now, I'd still go ***3/4 to **** range though. I'm not as high on the match as others. It might work better as stand alone viewing. Some my rating just might be clouded by my own ticks and the show as a whole. Personally, the show last night was too long, and while Reigns/Rusev was the worst offender, all post-spots of both girls selling so WWE could show the replay undermined the blood brawl dynamic a little for me. They made sense for Sasha, after the initial angle pre-match, but kind of less so for Charlotte, imo. And after seeing so many shocked faces to kickouts earlier in the show, I'm sure a few of the false finishes in this match bugged me a little. I didn't have a big issue with the finish though. Booking that as the finish? Yeah, that didn't make much sense to me, but after a long brutal match, two throws onto the table and then a natural selection I bought as the final straw that was just too much for Sasha, especially since her back finally gave out to lead into that sequence. I'm glad they brought more of a violent, rough style to their match though. Personally, I think that's sorely missing on most of the main roster matches, and it helped them stand out.

Sorry it's not for you. Anybody who hates schtick, even though I think it's awesome schtick, is unlikely to be a fan of this pod. If people just want to hear the show recap, to dip your toe in, that's usually about 3 hours or so in for the last 50 eps in. It's always after the emails have been read and the death toll. And it's always part 2, if there is a 2 part episode.