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Who said that GWE was more than the view of a niche at this current point in time? Grimmas seems to think that "everyone" has this random indie lucha match that even most lucha fans have never seen as a MOTY and maybe even decade, and has given me GWE rankings as a way to prove what he was saying was true.

Flair is as close to universally praised as the greatest of all time, by those in the industry, and fans. But he's clearly not. I would argue that not only is he not great, at times he wasn't even good, and I'll explain. 1. Severely limited in the ring I don't mean from a move set perspective (although that is part of it), but from a match structure standpoint. Ric Flair could only do one match: The Ric Flair match. I'm sure we're all very familiar with it and could probably write it out spot for spot in order, because he had that match with everyone. That same match could plug in Terry Taylor, Hulk Hogan, El Gigante, Rey Mysterio, Sting, DDP, Ron Garvin, or Ricky Morton, and you'd get the same thing out of it. It's no surprise that almost all of his highest praised matches were ones where his opponent refused to go along with the formula and dragged him kicking and screaming out of his comfort zone. Even in his physical prime, he was consistently blowing his own major spots, and he kept doing them in the 90s even when he physically couldn't do them anymore. His way of getting around that was to...add more bumps on the floor. He was an ugly wrestler, in terms of athletic ability and execution. If he blew a spot, he made it very clear to everyone. He was very blatant at calling his spots and telling people when to come in at him. He was very, very blatant at blading, rarely even trying to hide what he was doing. 2. Terrible in ring psychology I guess people just overlook that he spent 40 years doing chops and arm work to set up the figure four. If he was having an hour long match, he'd wait until the last 10 minutes to even START the leg work. And for being known as a technical wrestler, the extent of which he did was the canned headlock > head scissors > repeat > bridge spot that you'd see in every opening match in the 70s, plus hammer locks to kill time. Even worse, his hammer locks and bridges looked like shit. He also worked the wrong leg for 40 years. His bumping and selling was comedic, and two of his biggest spots were straight up comedy spots (the flip and the flop) that always kill any tension and seriousness in a match. When he wrestled as a face, he'd often fall into the same patterns, doing spots designed to get face pops for his heel opponents. Or, he'd do something like have matches with Vader where he'd out punch and out brawl FUCKING VADER. He'd constantly drag guys into doing things they'd never do in other matches (such as back drops on the floor, press slams, superplexes) because Flair had to get his Flair shit in regardless of opponent. 3. Never the best member of his own group Arn was better than Ric at literally everything inside of a ring. I'd argue promos at times, as well. There were times where Flair was at the bottom of the list as a Horseman, specifically the Flair/Arn/Tully/Barry version. Tully did Flair's gimmick in and out of the ring better than Flair. You can't be the leader of a group and clearly not be the best member of the group at any time. There are a whole host of personal issues that could play a factor into this, but I'd rather keep it to his in ring performances instead of ragging on him as a human. The amount of shit that people just over look when calling Flair the GOAT is so absurd. You'd never see someone with such glaringly huge holes in his/her game be called the greatest of all time in a real sport. When fans use actual wrestlers claiming him to be the best, they conveniently overlook that the people that praise him the highest were kids or teenagers when they first saw him, and got into wrestling because of him. Wrestlers that worked with him, but didn't grow up being fans of him tend to have much different opinions of his abilities as a performer. It's weird that people just let his MASSIVE flaws slide because he's been rated so high for so long.

Stop trolling. Liking 70s AJPW is trolling? The fuck? My love of 70s AJPW is everywhere I post, including my own website. Baba was a wonderful booker, and whoever was laying out the matches could make me enjoy Mil Mascaras matches. No, liking 70s AJPW is not trolling and you know that. Stop being so obtuse. Stop being a pedantic baby about everything and I'll work on being less obtuse

Stop trolling. Liking 70s AJPW is trolling? The fuck? My love of 70s AJPW is everywhere I post, including my own website. Baba was a wonderful booker, and whoever was laying out the matches could make me enjoy Mil Mascaras matches.

70s AJPW is the gold standard, imo. Even shitty lucha dudes looked good over there.

If you want to discuss a real problem, we should discuss why 90s heavyweight NJPW gets ignored so much in favor for AJPW, at the time and today. 90s heavyweight NJPW was better than AJPW at the time.

You need to take that presumption people like wrestling ironically and to prove points and sincerely fuck off. Maybe you misread. I'm not saying people like wrestling ironically (I mean, obviously some do, but not the ones I'm talking about here and at DVDVR). I'm saying they take it so seriously that they'll find obscure things to point to to prove themselves as REAL fans, truly educated and better than the average WON reader. They're into wrestling TOO MUCH to step back a bit.

DVDVR and indeed the GWE lists here are clearly full of groupthink, because that's the only way Jerry Lawler ends up in the top 10 over guys like Steamboat/Savage/Austin/HBK/Arn etc. When you have a list where Bobby Eaton is 80 ahead of The Rock, and Chris Hero is 3 behind The Rock, you know you're in a place where a bunch of like minded people have gathered and think this is how "everyone" thinks because they're all in agreement. I say this as someone who loves both Jerry Lawler and Bobby Eaton. Their rankings are so out of whack that it's genuinely laughable. Random shit like a 3 minute Tojo vs Dundee studio match from 1981 would get praised as being so incredible, a lost classic, etc etc. Then you watch it and it has 3 punches, a kick from Dundee, both choke and nerve hold spots, and a DQ. DVDVR always had a strong tenancy to make sure everyone knew they were smarter than the average smark, which ended up meaning they'd fight to find the most obscure match to hype up to show how deep in it they really were. It's no surprise that that happens here as well, considering the DNA of this place. Anyone that would ever try to deny such things is just being silly. When you make a Greatest Ever list and the majority of posters agree on the top 10, that should be enough to tell you there is groupthink going on.

Literally no other board I've been to has even mentioned Trauma vs Lupus at all, let alone as a MOTY or MOTD. When you say "most", do you mean most just on this board? I watched the match and thought it was decidedly average. It certainly doesn't deserve to win any awards outside of maybe best bladejob. When has a match from a tiny indie no one has heard of in America ever won WON MOTY? Like, AAW or AIW will never win MOTY from WON, let alone some of those promotions out of the Carolinas area or the various NWA promotions still around. I watched 30 seconds in the middle of this match and gave up. Unbelievably terrible. Matches worked slower than a training demonstration? I'll pass. Way to put in the effort. Here's the thing: People shouldn't have to put in the effort to make you feel justified in liking what you like. The real question that needs to be asked here is why the fuck do you give a shit about what Dave Meltzer (or anyone else) thinks about lucha? Why do you need others to like what you like, and be condescending to those that don't? You're on that 20 year old music snob gimmick right now, and it is not becoming at all. Like what you like and move on with your life. The reasons why lucha isn't covered as much have been covered multiple times. Nothing is going to change, nor does anything NEED to change for you to keep enjoying your luchas. There is nothing wrong with people don't like lucha. There is nothing wrong with people who do like lucha. Keep watching what you watch and stop worrying about what other people aren't watching. Oh weird, Mexican wrestling is very popular in Mexico? I wonder why a style of wrestling wrapped up in the Mexican culture and easily understood by people living in Mexico would be far more popular in Mexico than anywhere else. American wrestling has traditionally been far less popular in Mexico, with WWE's tours drawing much less than AAA/CMLL. If there was a Mexican Dave Meltzer type, do you think he'd cover American and Japanese wrestling as much as Mexican wrestling? Currently at least, it seems like Mexican fans are a lot more interested in puro than they are WWE/American indies. Is there some insidious reasoning behind it, or could it just be that there are more working agreements between Mexican and Japanese promotions, so they're more exposed to Japanese wrestlers today than Americans?

I'd love to know how you seem to know that Americans think Japan = cool and Mexico = droolz, and therefore American wrestling fans like puro more than lucha. It's already been explained to you multiple times why puro has a bigger foothold than lucha, but you don't seem to want to accept it. So I'll put it into bullet points for you: There has been far more cross pollination and cross promotion between American/Canadian/Japanese promotions over the past 60 years Because of said cross promotion and pollination, it was easier and more accessible to get tapes of Japanese promotions in the 80s and 90s Japan took much more care preserving their recordings in general, which is why there is so much content so easily available online today Lucha is a pretty unique and strange style within the context of other pro wrestling styles, and it usually isn't something people used to other styles immediately latch on to Lucha is much more promo heavy than puro, meaning for people that don't speak the language, it is more difficult to follow storylines and angles than it is for puro In case that isn't clear enough, I'll boil it down to its essence: Puro has always been easier to follow, therefore more people have always followed puro. You might notice that there isn't anything in there about "something else" (sweet walking back, btw). Donald Trump doesn't speak for all Americans anymore than Trudeau speaks for all Canadians. To make a sweeping generalization of an entire population, and then another sweeping generalization of a minuscule sub-population of that group (total WWE viewers in the US = under 1% of the population) while trying to imply that people not liking what you like don't like it because of their sweeping generalizations on Mexico/Mexicans/Mexican culture is so incredibly lacking in self-awareness that you should be ashamed of yourself. Especially while your signature promotes shows about....PURO instead of lucha.

Damn dawg, everyone knows Mexicans and South Americans don't get along. Quit letting your cultural and racial biases get in the way of enjoying ewoks and ninja turtles doing arm drags on the Corona mat.

Keep your bullshit aside please. Oh yes, it's MY bullshit that you and others are implying people not liking lucha have to have some latent or explicit issue with Mexico and Mexicans. My misunderstanding. Just like it was MY bullshit that got you so upset about being able to look at Chris Hero. I hate to break it to you, telling people they are racist for not liking boring ass Black Terry matches will not make them like it.

No, Jerry. Only racism could be behind this!

Puro, because the crossover between American/Canadian wrestling and Japanese wrestling has always been more pronounced than that of American/Canadian/Mexican wrestling, and you were much more likely to see a random Japanese wrestler on WCW or WWF than a lucha guy until 1996. Even then, it was always much easier to get tapes from Japan than through Mexico. I assure you, it had nothing to do with me thinking Mexico was poor and dirty and unworthy of my time. Sorry that I hate arm drags, not Mexicans. If only I could fit into this much deeper philosophical/racial box that non-lucha fans have to go into here. Mascaras probably a bigger star stateside than any "puro" worker before 96. I didn't say anything about star level. I said you were more likely to see guys from Japan on shows than guys from Mexico. It sure was a lot easier to get tapes of Kawada/Misawa than Mil Mascaras matches from the 70s in 1996.

Puro, because the crossover between American/Canadian wrestling and Japanese wrestling has always been more pronounced than that of American/Canadian/Mexican wrestling, and you were much more likely to see a random Japanese wrestler on WCW or WWF than a lucha guy until 1996. Even then, it was always much easier to get tapes from Japan than through Mexico. I assure you, it had nothing to do with me thinking Mexico was poor and dirty and unworthy of my time. Sorry that I hate arm drags, not Mexicans. If only I could fit into this much deeper philosophical/racial box that non-lucha fans have to go into here.

To think that somehow 4chan represents what wrestling fans think about Mexico and lucha is ridiculous. To think that someone not liking a style of wrestling is because of racism is ridiculous. Also, not liking mariachi music is not racist. Just like it isn't racist to not enjoy country music. Some things speak to you. Others don't. To try to break it down into check boxes of this means this and that means that is absolutely ridiculous and intellectually dishonest to begin with. Not being interested in a culture is not racism. Understand that on this message board dedicated to fake fighting, this discussion has come to people calling others ignorant racists and bigots for not liking a style of faking fighting that they like. And the idea that someone can just not care for lucha is now not even being entertained without some at least low level racism and bigotry being part of the reason.

What the fuck, now we have check your priv type posts over...people not liking a style of wrestling? What is this place? I thought it was like a fun off shoot of DVDVR where the smart people bailed to, but this is some of the most pedantic, naval gazing, ridiculous discussions I've seen. Is it really so hard to believe people might not like lucha because the style is silly and goofy and not like pretty much every other style of wrestling in the world instead of it having to be some time of racial thing? This is pro wrestling. Not everything is informed by racial, cultural, economic, or political thoughts. It's grown adults play fighting in tights. It ain't that serious. Lucha is musical theater to puro's movies. A lot of people think musical theater is stupid and silly, too. Perhaps they have some hidden seething rage for theater nerds or singers or gay people or 7/8 timing. Or maybe they just want to watch a god damn movie instead.

What the fuck does 4chan have to do with apathy for lucha? Why are we using what "kids on 4chan" think about anything as a barometer for this, or any, discussion?

I think accusing people who don't like a very specific style with its own internal logic, bumping, and selling style that doesn't really exist anywhere else as being racists who dislike the culture of the country of origin for the style because it is poor and dirty is not the best place to start. Since I think both Kenny Omega and Elgin suck (especially Elgin), I wonder if that means I dislike Canadians and Canada because people are nice and it is cold there. Disgusting.

You know, Ric Flair and lucha have a lot in common. Mostly rote, repetitive, comedy dumb shit that people shouldn't pay as much attention to as they do. Plus or minus racism.

The lucha wall just got 10 feet higher, apparently.

Starting out that dissertation with "Wrestling fans think Mexico is poor and gross and that's why they don't like lucha" is so fucking bizarre that I don't even know how to respond. Just starting the thing out more or less calling internet fans racist or prejudiced against the country and people instead of the style. Then you continue with saying they're idiots who just don't understand. Worst of all, you say they're probably racist/bigoted even if they don't realize it, so someone can't just think lucha is goofy and dumb, they have to tie it in with thinking Mexico is some poor, dirty place that is beneath them to even watch wrestling matches from. What the fuck, dude? Did you actually mean to write all those words to boil down to people who don't like lucha = dumb racists?

Oh yeah, I wonder why a woman not interested in a guy might suddenly become interested in him as he becomes more successful. Because that never ever happens in the real world or anything. That's caveman peacocking 101 shit. That should make sense to even young children who try to impress a girl they like by doing something dumb on the playground.

Owens was never made to be a top guy, not because of his look, but because his instincts are to go comedy or pop the crowd. He's fundamentally not someone you can take seriously 90% of the time. His look (particularly his height more than his weight) is part of that, but it's more his personality is like a lazy stoner guy at heart. More often than not, if he has the chance to do something brutal or deliver a crushing line, he's going to do a comedy spot or make a joke. He's a great mid card guy who can be plugged into main events from time to time, but I've never seen him as a top guy for years type of performer. I don't think WWE did, either. I'm sure he'd have had the title eventually, but I'm quite positive him holding the title from Summerslam to the Rumble was never even a possibility before Balor went down.

Because he's black, of course. That's how he got his job, you know.