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Lol the fuck, some of those names being on the list at all is crazy, let alone how high some guys are. I love Bobby Eaton dearly, but we're putting him in top 30 ALL TIME, over guys like Harley/Tully/Martel/Rock/Finlay/Aja/Andre/Murdoch? The Rock not even in the top 100 and only 1 spot away from Christian? What kind of wonky ass criteria was used for that voting?

You have plenty to talk about on this subject, but none of it involves wrestling. Chris Hero is an all time great now? Da hayle? I like the guy as much as anyone, but that's pretty generous.

No one but you is conflating weight/health. We're speaking about aesthetics. What's the first thing you see when you see a picture of Chris Hero? His LDL levels? Of course not. So why the fuck do you keep mentioning it like someone is arguing you about his health?

c'mon this is ridiculous all grimmas is saying is that you're wrong to think they'd cover up Hero's body because the company has changed its position on stuff like that. I haven't got a dog in this fight, I'm not really on Grimmas' side i guess they probably wouldn't make him wear a singlet or whatever but i wouldn't be too surprised if they did or if they asked him to lose some of the weight. Except I never even said WWE would cover him up or that he even needed to lose weight. Grimmas has been having an argument about shit no one here has even said. They're obviously going to change his gear because he's not going to be wearing all of those basketball team logos anymore. Maybe they'll cover him up. Maybe they won't. They covered him up at the end of his last run and he was in better shape than he had been in 2 years. They're also going to cut out all the piledrivers. But in Grimmas' mind, anyone daring to suggest WWE would change some stuff about him obviously means we're fat shaming him or some shit. Because KO didn't have to change his gear, name, and move set. And Sami didn't have to remove his mask and put on bulk. And Balor didn't have to change his name, moveset, attitude, and promo style. And Itami didn't have to change his name, moveset, and workstyle. And Joe didn't have to shape up a bit and stop being so stiff. The only guy to come in mostly unchanged is Nakamura, and he's also had to be less stiff, change the name of his finisher, and do a variant of his traditional finisher because it looks less violent. How dare someone think that perhaps Chris Hero is going to have to change some stuff again. We're monsters. They tried to change AJ when he first came in and it wasn't necessary so they dropped it.

Hopefully they black out the screen when Chris Hero is on TV so no one has to be subjected to his body nor the feelings that might come from someone seeing his body. In fact, wrestling would be much better if the screen was just black for the whole show. Preferably with no audio, either, because JBL and Corey Graves sometimes say kind of mean things.

Fun facts: They changed Bullet Club's gear (specifically covering up Gallows more and now adding trunks to Anderson, also Anderson had to get serious about being in the gym and not being a booze hound and doing shows with hangovers anymore) Joe was wearing a shirt and he dropped not an insignificant amount of weight before he went into the title picture AJ was already in great shape and a top tier worker for a decade, there's nothing about him to change Nakamura has been toned down considerably, both in entrances and ring style Why would they change a guy they already hired once and made him change stuff and benched him to motivate him to work out harder but now he's 60 pounds heavier than he was when they got rid of him? I dunno

I see HHH run WWE being like what the WWF was in 1984-85: Hire your faves from somewhere else, push them hard, and pretend like you made them.

2 weeks for the show, but 3 months of the same guys doing the same things on Raw/PPV and no one reacting. Gallagher/Davari happened on the first show. Then on Raw. Then again on 205 Live the next night. 3 matches on TV in a week. The second week of the show had 2 of its 3 matches be rematches from the previous week. Definitely grrrrrrrr I hate wrestling stuff here, yep. They've had 3 months to develop characters and storylines. It's going to have minimal storylines by default, because less than 1/3rd of people watching Raw even have the Network. It's a workrate show to appeal to the hardcores, but the hardcores also aren't very interested in the cruiserweights, and gives these dudes a bizarre schedule where they're working NXT TV/house shows, Raw, Raw house shows, Raw PPVs, while also having to travel and go to all the Smackdown shows, too.

An example before Survivor Series: The cruiserweights had a 6 man tag with dives and flips and shit that went on for way too long and fans didn't really care much for. It was followed immediately by Kane vs Harper, which had....Harper doing dives, and both men jumping off the top rope. And then every match on the card had a dive of some kind. Or multiple. It's easier to count the amount of people who don't do a suicide dive in WWE, so why should you be more impressed with a 170 pound dude doing it when 230 pound guys do it all show long?

Oh that Takeovers are almost always great. It's just the TV is the most skippable shit imaginable these days. DIY/Revival in Toronto is my match of the year for sure. But god damn, it's not a good thing when you can skip 4 months of TV and not miss anything for the big shows.

NXT went to shit to me immediately following Brooklyn. TV stopped being a priority in favor of touring and self hype for how hot of a brand it was. It's felt like the past year and a half of NXT has been burned out crowds, jobber matches, and telling everyone how much of a phenomenon NXT is.

Ward going to SD, Dusty dying, and the start of the completely useless Balor reign all occurred within a month or two of each other, and NXT was never the same. Around that same time is when they stopped even bothering with giving the established guys gimmicks or stories beyond this guy was in ROH/NJPW/PWG/TNA.

To change the subject back to NXT: Boy is it a shitshow outside of the long established guys (and Asuka) plus DIY/Revival. It might actually be for the best to have all of those called up all at once and force NXT to have to actually develop talent again.

Jesus Christ man. I get this is a personal issue for you. We're just talking about dudes fake fighting in their underwear. No one has said KO and Chris Hero need to have abs. Literally no one in this discussion has even said they need to drop weight. They are what they are and are great performers regardless of their weight. But to rag and rage on people for having the temerity to calmly discuss what they look like is ridiculous. It's okay to talk about Rick Rude's abs, and it's even okay to talk about how huge and imposing Vader was, but saying the dude carrying the top title on the top show in the industry has a big beer belly is somehow off limits and super offensive to...fans in the crowd? Your wife's struggles with weight and eating disorders has nothing to do with what Kevin Owens looks like.

The fuck overweight means when you have a giant jiggly gut like KO or Chris Hero. Jesus Christ, we're not talking about your wife. We're talking about two men you god damn know are overweight and fat. This is getting bizarre. Not a damn person has mentioned BMI. We're talking about pretend fighters in their underwear who have significant excess body fat that you can visibly see bouncing and jiggling around as they perform. You know exactly people mean when they say KO or Chris Hero are fat. It's okay to say Mojo could tighten up and drop some body fat when he was at the PC 7 days a week with world class trainers and nutritionists. And instead, he bulked and put a shirt on. And that's okay, too. But it isn't a problem to talk about it, obviously his employers did, and they came to a conclusion that worked for both.

It's not a major issue to acknowledge that someone is overweight when they're overweight. No one here is even saying Hero or KO need to lose weight. Whoever you're arguing with isn't in this thread. I feel like you're taking any discussion of anyone's appearance that isn't perfect and great as automatic shaming. Like, are we not allowed to talk about Dick The Bruiser's ugly mug, or Abby's gig marks, or Luna's voice, or Dusty's birth mark because someone somewhere might get their feelings hurt over it?

We're not equating weight to health. We're just talking about what they look like because they're doing something where look is about 80% or more of any given persona. In the same way that people would talk about Jonah Hill being cast in a role that would traditionally be for an Arnold/Sly/Rock type.

Hero himself said he had a health issue a few months back that contributed to his weight gain and his difficulty losing it and keeping it off in WWE. I want to say it was thyroid related, but don't quote me on that. I'm not just speculating that him being overweight is bad for his health here. Fat Chris Hero is dope. He's far more interesting now than he's been over the past 15 years or so. Saying he's fat isn't' a judgment on him. People can discuss looks and appearances that may be unflattering without judging or it being automatically negative. On the other hand, KO has that gut because he eats terribly and doesn't like to work out. It hasn't impacted his career, so why change it now?

The problem with that is it is driving the people in the business into steroids and eating disorders. It's not healthy at all. Chris Hero is a great athlete and a great wrestler. He gets completely mocked for his belly and it's ridiculous. Beautiful people get called out for being ugly all the time, skinny people called fat, etc.. Wrestling Culture did a great podcast on body dysmorphia a few years back that people should listen to. Again, if I am a fan at home and I hear people call someone like Molly Holly or Mickie James fat, what do you think that does to a girl's brain? By the way, Kevin Owens and Bray Wyatt are concerned fat and unfit for their roles on television, by many, seriously this is completely messed up. KO and Chris Hero are fat, though. Can't really deny that. I don't know why that would somehow be off limits. They're public performers. One of them performs in his underwear. The other covers up as much as he can and wears compression shirts under his gear to try to hide his very large belly. Bray Wyatt is not fat. He's built like a football player. I understand Hero has some kind of medical issue, but his weight gain is actually a pretty huge part of his character and ring style now, so to ignore because it might be mean is kind of weird. Same with KO, as "fat guy who can still do all the athletic movez" has kind of been his thing for a long time. I don't think anyone says KO or Bray are UNFIT FOR THEIR ROLES on TV. I've literally never heard that. I've heard people make fun of KO for looking like a random fan, but not that he was unfit to be on television. It's not like we're talking about random stock boys at a corner grocery store. James Ellsworth looks pretty ridiculous to be a pro wrestler, which is why he got hired and has been on TV for months now. To pretend like he doesn't look funny so as to not maybe hurt his feelings or someone who might look like him is kind of dumb to me. HOSS Hero is on pretty much everyone's top 10 dudes on the indies right now. KO is on pretty much everyone's top 10 dudes in WWE right now. No one gives a shit about their looks beyond commenting on it.

Cena to Bryan at SummerSlam 2013 and Reigns to Rollins at MITB this year immediately come to mind. Reigns/Rollins had some unique circumstances to it (Roman getting busted and punished, Rollins coming back to the huge face reaction, Dean cashing in immediately after on the guy he's wanted revenge on for 2 years who was still a heel), but good call on Cena/Bryan. Forgot about that. Also a face/face situation, hard to do a face/face title change without it being clean unless you're wanting to turn someone. Cena/Brock, though. How could I forget that?

Eh, it's a looks business. Your look/weight/height/musculature is always going to be an important factor in your career. It's a valid topic of discussion, in my opinion. I just think you should say what you want to say instead of hiding behind "Vince would do/say xyz" shit. In general, the "Vince would/n't..." caveat before discussions on any talent has been a terrible custom for wrestling discussion online for years. All these brehs psychoanalyzed him and can predict his every thought, I guess.

205 Live sucks. Who the fuck was wanting an hour long workrate show when there is already 9 hours of content per week, plus the talent working long matches on Raw and the show already being rematches TWO WEEKS IN? Completely needless content for the sake of content shit. People don't care about the cruiserweights on Raw or PPV, adding a whole hour in front of a dead/tired/leaving crowd is ridiculous.

I'm talking about booking babyfaces to never lose unless under screwy circumstances, overcoming all odds and being portrayed as the underdog no matter how many times they overcome said odds. I can't remember the last time a top face lost the title clean besides Balor in NXT, and even that was with a super death finisher.

HHH didn't steal shit. Shane was throwing out ideas that didn't mesh with what the company was doing, and then he voluntarily left the company and family business. You don't get to just bounce, sell your stock, go start your own shit, then come back and get your spot back. It's not his legacy just because he was the first born son. Stephanie was a better business person and was going to get his spot regardless.

Just say you think she's ugly, mayne. Fans on boards using Vince as a way to get out froggy shit about women or minorities has always been weird as shit to me. I'm not saying it. Imaginary Vince McMahon is saying it.