CurtainJerker

Love Bobby, he was a super bumper with great timing, comedy, and could draw heat. That said I can't see how Elliot can rationalize Heenan being in the Top 5 based on Elliot's own Gordy List remix:

Interesting...will have to watch these 2002 matches. Dustin was amazing in WCW, liked his tag run with Stardust and his AEW work, but felt his 90s Goldust stuff was not good in the ring due to the character directives.

Bill James, the creator of the Keltner List, was a supporter of giving credit to losing seasons due to World War II and not having Negro League stats documented. One would think we ought to extrapolate from missing footage.

Have not revisited Shawn's return run in 10+ years, but I do recall boring headlocks in long matches, which is ironic since it's not what he's known for. I think he was trying to be what Danielson is today.

It's a swerve. Punk vs KENTA will happen.

Glad you said it, because it's true. I'll take it one step further and say if he wasn't such a beloved meme and so nostalgic due to Hulkamania, he would have been cancelled.

Tabletop Face to the Mat: The most creative tabletop wrestling game I have ever played. Super niche, but new sets are produced every two years. Your fed will become alive and offers many surprises. Includes booking plus playing out the matches. Fictional sets and historic and ersatz sets exist as well. It's basically a late 1990s/early 2000s Raw simulator. Champions of the Galaxy: The best fictional wrestlers/ongoing storyline I've come across. Great artwork. Has some strategy due to choices made with dice rolling. Been active since late 1986. Also is digital. Great community. Ultra Quick Wrestling: The best chart I've seen which resolves fights in a few seconds. Great for historical yearly sims. No more new sets or support anymore though. Downey Games has other overpriced wrestling games as well. PC Pro Wrestling Superstar: Digital version of the 1980s tabletop. Was disappointed that there's no real strategy/choices, and matches tend to go on forever due to the point system. Tom Vogel's Wrestling's Finest: Digital version. Insanely priced ($99) and you have to email Tommy to get anything. 1990s GUI. No real strategy. Total Extreme Wrestling (Extreme Warfare Revenge): What every booking game tries to copy. May be the best, but has major design issues and programmer Adam Ryland forces his vision of how pro wrestling works on the users. Wrestling Spirit 2-3: Best text game with play-by-play matches and abilities. Some GUI/database issues. Pro Wrestling Sim: TEW with less features but better GUI. Popular nowadays. TNM7: I'm sorry, but this game still look and plays like it's 1995. Should be shareware at this point, but it's overpriced. Tournament Edition is actually every cool, but the wrestlers only have the bare min. of stats, so it's a crapshoot. Fire Pro Wrestling World: Difficulty is either too hard or too easy. Dislike GUI for selecting/scrolling wrestling. Mobile 80s Mania, etc: Really was my favorite app when it first came out due to the characters and nostalgia. But the lack of strategy, grinding, and cash grabs killed my enjoyment. WWE SuperCard: Really was into this when it first came out. Loved the actual battles and card collecting. Not so much with the tournaments and cash grabs. Journey of Wrestling: Innovative web-based booking sim. So-so GUI. Wish it was downloadable because it feels like one day it will just disappear.

I could see the case for the #1 GWE to be Lou Thesz's if one extrapolates a bit. He technically was the GOAT in terms of mat work and championship defenses. Watched around 25 Lou Thesz matches, most of them twice. His 1950s stuff was his best. Pros: Longevity, long peak, authentic, legitimate, realistic, stamina, most respected and acclaimed World Champion, excellent tweener and heel work, shoot style selling and matwork, Man of 1000 Holds, main eventer, excellent opponents, finishes are "highspots" of the era and are usually flash pins. Cons: Didn't work the crowd and in many matches the crowd was for his opponent. He saw that as a feature, not a bug. His crowd manipulation required fans to pay attention to the match. The stakes were that the crowd was watching what looked to be authentic, so they required patience and there was tension. His sports entertainment qualities were virtually non-existent. He's a thinking fan's wrestler, but some of the longer matches put me to sleep (literally). I prefer heel bumping, movement, and entertainment than Thesz's submission holds. That's just my taste. I found his Memphis stuff to be out of time and over the heads of the studio audience. Same with his Japanese stuff- just feels cringe and he doesn't come off like a Living Legend a la Bruno Sammartino in the mid-1980s. Lou may have had a great look in the 40s and early 50s but he looked (and acted) 10 years older than his true age in every era. Considerations: Incomplete record on video; he has well over 5000 matches in his career. He was the exception to the rule- by the 1950s wrestling was sports entertainment for TV, yet Uncle Lou was the face of wrestling as a non-clown. Thesz was the prototype for Brisco, Backlund, Hart, Punk, Danielson, and FTR as a throwback/model/gatekeeper to what rasslin' "ought" to have been.

Peaks: Cena had 3 years where an argument could be made he was #1 in the world, Bret had 2. Cena was pushed as The Man in WWE longer. Longevity: Hart had 1500+ more matches than Cena, believe it or not. Both have had at least one match in 25 different years. Execution: Of course, Bret. Cena could be sloppy and not crisp. Consistency: Hart, although the revelations of him mailing it in at house shows hurts him. Cena started off bad and improved every year, and eventually became a modern spot monkey during the U.S. Open Challenge. Volume of big matches available: Cena. Went above and beyond with limited opposition and opportunity: Yes, Bret was the King of the Dark Ages. If I was a booker I'd go with Hart to have a better quality match, Meltzer's star ratings be damned.

He seems like a different animal in ROH matches, similar to how his NXT matches were at another level compared to WWE main roster. I still have issues weighing him being a charisma vacuum/forcing a character, i.e. Dean Malenko.

It really shouldn't. It's amazing how it was so offensive to people, even though in the end we are all attempting to quantify the subjective. I'd recommend a Preference Checker to build a list as well: https://czeckd.github.io/preference-revealer/dist/ I may be cynical but it all ultimately comes down which wrestler has the most appealing style to voters, also called My 100 Favorite Wrestlers. I do confess I would have liked some rules or marching orders besides "there are no rules besides the wrestler must have been nominated" and "footage, footage, footage".

I think we need a new thread title: "is PWO crumbling before our eyes?"

Hi Elliot, I had to digest what you said here and on Discord for a long time. You are blowing my "access to opponents" line (which was in a listing many other items) way out of proportion. I never said Hogan didn't carry worse wrestlers, or that it relates to him getting over in Japan. I meant that Vince would heat up good opponents for him in important events seen by many. Compare that to a Rip Rogers or John Tatum type. My point is not all wrestlers have the same opportunities in the big show against big opponents. Hogan over in Japan because of his unique looks, not because of his in-ring work. I grew up with him and watched all of his matches on video. I can see he was good. I don't want people reading this think I am against him. I just don't see how he was a better wrestler than the technical ones or specialized brawlers/high flyers. He was more entertaining, though. Jim Londos was a great wrestler, but he was #1 in box office because of his looks. He got the push because of his looks. He made the best of it. Great format: beauty vs the beast, make the comeback. I don't think you convinced me that you are judging Hogan just based on his matches. I'm not sure why Hogan's superstardom and being pushed in the main slot (and others being unable to take his place) should count for GWE. Or stuff like Vince asking him to do stuff outside of his comfort zone. Not sure why him excelling in sprints (something almost everyone in Stardom does) overrides him not having stamina. Not sure why he gets "points" for the occasional suplex compared to The Steiners making up new suplexes. You had a lot of faint praise for Hulk: underrated tag wrestler, limited yet efficient moveset, willingness to bleed, good puncher, and not as a bad athlete as we remember. Do you use that same criteria for others? Hogan may rank #593 in willingness to bleed. Why is it even a factor? There are many others who were better sellers and tag wrestlers than Hulk. Was he in the Top 10 of each? Maybe selling, but I didn't list them out. But having great apron work reminds me of when Jericho says he is GOAT because he reinvents himself every few months. Since when is that a criterion for GWE? Maybe it is, since anything goes as long as we watch the videos. When I read debates, it seems like everyone just makes their own system up. Maybe I should, too. Except when I bring up using canon or titles or awards, I am told that is not GWE. Why deduct a point from Steamboat for not being a heel, when he perfected being a babyface, while Hogan was basically an anti-hero as a babyface? Give Hulk a bonus for being a great heel with the nWo. That should not be a negative for Ricky especially since promoters refused to turn him. Vince McMahon, Sr., Sam Mushnick, Verne Gagne, and "the boys in the back" viewed Bob Backlund was a better wrestler and worker than Hulk Hogan, but Hogan was the better mainstream draw, more popular, had better look/size, had more charisma, and was better on the mic. Hogan knew Backlund was the better wrestler. Backlund at his peak had great crowd connection, but he lost them toward the end of his run. So did Hogan, by the way. In fact his peak is a lot smaller than many believe, as was his match output. When Hogan and Dusty Rhodes try to wrestle like Backlund (armlocks, submissions) they almost always failed and those sequences were boring. In other words, they were poor mat wrestlers and had poor execution of the basic fundamentals of being pro wrestlers. But boy, they could sell, had great comebacks, had charisma, and made tons of cash. It feels like the Pro Wrestling vs Sports Entertainment debate, which taken to its logical conclusion results in "anything goes, all styles are created equal, wrestling is absurd". All the voters all value different things. Lots of it is based on us being entertained. Some say we are just voting for our favorites. Last time in the GWE, Hogan averaged #41 and Backlund was #54. Where would you rank Backlund if you have Hogan penciled in at #75?

Re: Cody When he was booking his own stuff in 2019, he was the highlight of 2019. Once TK demoted the EVPs from booking at the beginning of 2020 (rumored due to the Dark Order beating up the Elite to end the show, and Dave Meltzer was crying on his podcast), Cody's programs were never the same but I was still into him and never understood the fans turning on him. It is wrong to hold him accountable for his lack of push and angles. His matches and promos were great. The bottom line is he and The Elite had different philosophies and styles, i.e. "creative differences". He wanted to be the ace of the company, too, which required a 8-12 month World Title run. Re: The Young Bucks leaking that CM Punk wanted Colt to be fired. As TK said in Forbes, how ridiculous does this actual sound in practice? The bigger question (to me) is did TK speak with Punk and Colt about if they could work together before Punk was signed? Because all of us saw the potential issues. I don't appreciate posters and Cornette using uncited information that The Bucks make up stories and leak them. Wrestlers have always leaked info to the dirt sheets. Complaints are from their POV. The shady ones like Konnan and ECW crew manipulated Dave and Wade. But people are saying the Bucks have engaged in straight fabrication but have presented no evidence. And The Bucks have a history of stirring the pot? Why, because they didn't like Cornette in ROH or were treated like crap at TNA? Sounds weak to be feel threatened by The Young Bucks complaining about their push in badly run promotions. Re: Who started it? Well, I heard Punk challenge Hangman on TV and every EVP during the press conference. He did say to confront him in the "hallway" and not "dressing room", so I guess he and Ace Steel will claim self-defense because apparently The Young Buck's superkicks can smash down doors and threatened Larry. Look, I listened to Cornette's defense of Punk so I am not ignorant of both sides, but Punk comes off as paranoid, self-centered, egotistical, narcissistic, and humiliated the company and his boss. Punk's "truth" is his truth. It's not The Truth. At worst, The Young Bucks come off as juvenile and passive-aggressive, but not like scary raving lunatics. Sorry, folks, I really can't hate on Hangman. He's a sensitive guy and works hard. Hangman actually doesn't need advice from Punk or Sting. Punk is the one who brought Terry Funk into this, but Hangman was answering a question about Punk + Sting. The Elite are basically self-trained and self-made, and think Punk and other vets underrate their careers because they were not in WWE. Veterans have always had told the current generation to "slow down". No one listens. Get over yourself! Big deal, Hangman cut an insider promo on Punk to promote their PPV match. It was an ambiguous one liner. Colt wasn't mentioned. When he said it I thought he was talking about how Punk isn't really a locker room leader, and is in fact taking Hangman's spot away as champ. After all, wasn't that Punk's complaint in WWE? Worked shoots seem to be done every week on AEW, anyway! Why all of a sudden do we have to be on Punk and Eddie Kingston's side when their feelings are hurt? They clearly could dish it out on the mic but can't take it. Screw Punk for creating an image where he thinks he is a worker's rights advocate, when he didn't say a word in defense of other AEW wrestlers having issues. He doesn't do AEW charity events when I watch vlogs, not even meet and greets like Thunder Rosa, Sammy and Tay do every week. Come to work, goes home. An ex-WWE outsider coming in and running things now. To me, that's what Hangman was saying. Re: TK's leadership skills Pretty much non-existent. He let the inmates run the asylum. No attempt to handle the women. His roster is enormous and wrestlers left off TV/PPVs feel bad. The recent promotions (Tony Schiavone, QT Marshall, Pat Buck, Sonjay Dutt, Madison Rayne) were a joke. Unfortunately people like William Regal and Arn Anderson have no desire to help book or format shows. But what about Mark Henry, Chris Jericho, Dustin Rhodes, or Paul Wight? Billy Gunn seems like someone who would gladly take more responsibility. You guys may find faults in them, but I'd much rather take guys who were actual TV stars and command backstage respect that the recently promoted pushover paper-pushing VPs. I appreciate how nice and generous TK is, and would love a boss like him, but he obviously can't deal with discipline. Most of the workers just have to come to work on Wednesday and get paid A LOT OF MONEY to work 25-52 matches a year. So the fact that there's so much turmoil (the workers are biting the hand that feeds them) makes them come off as very entitled and immature. Re: The Punishments SI: "The list of those receiving suspensions includes Omega, Matt and Nick Jackson, Pat Buck, Christopher Daniels, Michael Nakazawa, and Brandon Cutler. Multiple sources have shared that Punk and Ace Steel will either be among those suspended, or will no longer be with the company by the end of Wednesday. Punk met with Khan on Tuesday, so the two had an opportunity to discuss how that exit could be handled." It looks like Brian Last's breaking news about personnel getting suspected was correct. Good for him for not spreading fake news. Suspensions for The Elite is fine, although IMHO they were goaded by Punk and "had" to confront him as per the rules of masculinity. However the coaches/"VPs" need to be permanently demoted. If Punk and The Elite could never work together or appear on the same shows again, then I do agree it is best if Punk takes his ball home (again). What a mess considering he just beat Mox clean for the World title. My best friend (casual fan) warned me when Punk came in that AEW didn't need him and he was toxic; she was right. Hey, I am open minded to condemn everyone involved. Two wrong don't make a right. I challenge you to do the same if you are offended I took The Elite's side over Punk.

Hahaha