goodhelmet

I think the exception to what you are talking about MGQ is the RVD-Lynn series which had people swearing up and down they were watching the 2nd coming of Flair-Steamboat. I know it didn't happen in 1996 but that is one instance of ECW fans claiming that ECW had super matches to appease the workrate freaks.

No, you're wrong. That isn't waht I was getting to at all. I am saying that if you watch an ea after it occurred then the veiwpoint or PERSPECTIVE will be different. It doesn't mean you lack perspective.

No one said 1996 ECW had no value at the time... or even historical value. What it lacks, esp. for me and others including yourself, is current entertainment value. Yes you can because what it means to be a wrestling fan today is completely different for some people then what it meant before. As a wrestling fan, (and despite popular opinion, I am a fan), I know it is fake and still want to see the company give him the belt because I enjoy him in the ring. I don't need to play booker to know I want him to have the belt. However, reading the Observer, being on the net, analyzing matches is a new way of being a fan. If I did not have the internet I can 100% guarantee that I would not be a fan of today's wrestling because my scope of exposure would be smaller. Being a wrestling fan is no longer restricted to being the guy in the stands who cheers and boos and hopes good conquers evil. Of course I am interewsted in the bigger picture but once I again I refer to what I said earlier in the thread... No one said 1996 ECW had no value at the time... or even historical value. What it lacks, esp. for me and others including yourself, is current entertainment value. I think that it did more harm than good from a historical viewpoint anyway so to me the value is negative. With anyone else except me would be a nice change. I re-read the thread and Slasher's one line comment is still valid just as the claim is that Paul Heyman was good at hiding weaknesses. He may have hid them but upon reflection, it doesn't stand the test of time. As for the scope of what ECW was doing, that again depends if you think it was a positive or a negative. OK, we'll have to backtrack because there is a difference. Your original post stated... Zero perspective is right. It's like watching 70s AJPW and complaining about a lack of Canadian Destroyers. However, in my response, you ignored one part which is very relavent about this topic... I said, "NO, it is looking back and saying "Man this was a shitty program because the wrestling sucks." You can do the same thing for any TV show. Shows like MASH hold up surprisingly well because there was substance" What this really comes down to is a style vs. substance debate. ECWwas an adrenaline rush, it was non-stop TNA blah blah blah but at the end of the day, there was no substance. We didn't see it then but we see it now. This supports Slasher's comments, my comments, savagerulez comments and even your point that you do not enjoy it now. If you don't enjoy it then it goes back to what I said... it is just footage taking up space. The reason why I still enjoy the original Willy wonka is because there was substance. For the Brady Bunch, there may be a lack of substance but there is still some camp value. In 1996 ECW, I find little substance and less camp value, which leads us to... We already agreed it had value. The difference is that for me, as a fan, a tape collector and Observer reader, that footage has no entertainment value so it collects dust. I have already watched the tapes and have no urge to watch them again, unlike something like The Best of Starrcade which I have watched about a dozen times in the last year. I did anwser your question, you just didn't like the answer, one you completely dismissed as not having anything to do with the conversation which was... My point was referring to your assertion that it doesn't matter what we think now of a product in the past because we are not the intended audience. Maybe I should have put quotes around that individual statement of yours. No one argued that Heyman didn't hide weaknesses. No one argued that there wasn't some historical value (good or bad). When you responded to Slasher's comments, what were you responding to if you agree? Becuase he didn't elaborate?

Ok, you challenged the fact that Slasher said it hasn't aged well. Why? Because you were looking at it when it happened? Some of us only have what is on tape to see this stuff. Once again, it may be a different perspective than the one from the guy who watched it live. That is not zero perspective. It is just differnet. Ok, please do and please remember that as a wrestling fan, I want to see Rey win the belt. What's your point? Well, lets all sit around the camp fire and listen to what you have to say since it is clearly the only RIGHT opinion. As a wrestling fan who did not see 1996 ECW live, but only on tape, I do not enjoy it. This is not having zero perspective about a product but a different one. Other guys who do not enjoy 1996 ECW now (or at least admit it doesn't age well)include savagerule and Slasher. Do we all have zero perspective? Even when savagerulez clearly said, "ECW 1996 was entertaining at the time." Ok great, no one is arguing that. We all agree it was different back then. Looking back, now it sucks. Where is the lack of perspective? NO, it is looking back and saying "Man this was a shitty program because the wrestling sucks." You can do the same thing for any TV show. Shows like MASH hold up surprisingly well because there was substance. Other shows I enjoyed as a kid don't. Am I supposed to hold it against the Brady Kids because they didn't use cell phones? Should I hold it aginast he original Willy Wonka becuase I can see the string on the glass elevator and they didn't use CGI? Same thing goes for wrestling. I can look back at an era or a show or a match and determine it sucks now even if I enjoyed it back then. When talking about 1988 NWA or 1994 All Japan, why isn't anyone saying it doesn't hold up now? Why does ECW get a free pass from you and these others don't NEED free passes. Why? Because the work of 1994 AJ still stands. The angles and work of 1988 NWA also still work for the most part. Once again, no excuses needed because of perspective. For chrissakes, would you feel better if I didn't post? Give me the word and I am gone. As a whole, the ECW 1996 TV does not stand the test of the time. For people who are more interested in the matches than the episodic TV, even more so. You were never supposed to see 1994 All Japan. Why did you even bring it up? Americans are not the intended audience but here we are talking about it. How do you even know what the hell is going on if not for the matches? I don't speak Japanese. I don't think you do either.

OK, but when you posted this topic, did you want out opinions of how we felt then or now? Do you want a history lesson or emotions? I didn't say it couldn't work or didn't have its niche but I am not looking from the perspective of a friggin promotr. I am looking at it from a wrestling fan point of view. As Slasher said, the stuff doesn't age well (from a wrestling fan perspective). From someone who is watching it in 2006, he is 100% correct. Looking back historically, as YOU said, it was an adrenaline rush that wasn't designed for a 2006 audience. That is 100% correct. Now, it is crap collecting space in my collection. Then, I wasn't even watching it. So how do I have zero perspective again? Maybe a better phrase you could have used was a different perspective. This is completely contingent on what the person wants to get out of their wrestling. Some people watch wrestling for individual matches. Others watch it for the episodic nature. If someone doesn't enjoy the whole product then it makes no sense to talk about it as a whole. Maybe that is what is best for you but the same doesn't hold true for everybody.

Yep, because lord knows I have no perspective or don't understand wrestling history. Most of the arena matches I watch from the 70s were never meant to be on film... period. Yet, there I am watching them 30 years later enjoying the hell out of them. Why? Because I truly believe good wrestling will stand the test of time while the smoke and mirrors bullshit Paul E. incorporated will be exposed for what it is. Therefore when we ask what our feelings about 1996 ECW are, esp. if we have seen some of it recently, the way we watch it ten years later is every bit as relavent as what our feelings were when it occurred. So tell me where the zero perspective comment comes in again?

It matters in the sense that even if it wasn't intended for us to watch 10 years later, we are the ones who are watching it now. if it doesn't age well then it is just a bunch of discs taking up space.

If that is the case then people should stop calling it a 5-star or a 4-star match.

You shouldn't be surprised. It was one of the first matches I watched after getting on the net and hearing the praise that I really felt let down. It had its moments but it wasn't one of the greatest matches of all-time. I am also at a disadvantage whe nwatching that match because I have no emotional investment in Ric Flair and at the time, I wasn't even watching wrestling. Looking back, it was a great moment seeing Flair win but the match has been outshined by too many matches for me to take it seriously.

1988 NWA This is a wierd year. I only have about a dozen episodes on disc but almost all of them had a high ccaliber matchup. Still, if it wasn't for Barry Windham and his Horsemen turn, I don't know how I would rate this year. One problem is that many of the matchups that were taking place were old hat. By the end of the year, the Brainbusters had split for New York and Dusty had run the RNR out because they were out drawing him on the B-shows. Then you had the Midnight Rider nonsense. However, then you could pop in any given week and see a classic liek Tully-Windham which went 30 minutes or The Arn/Tully vs. Luger/Windham match that cemented Barry's turn. 1994 AJPW Well, it had one of the best matches ever in it so it must have been pretty good Thread Killer already gave a good rundown of matches and I already mentioned the TV going to half an hour so I don't have much more to add. All Japan was still bringing the goods. 1992 WWF Lets see, wasn't watching the TV. I think the Royal Rumble is given undeserved praise becasue Flair won even though the match is so-so. I enjoyed the Summerslam main event. I think the WM matches that are given praise are over-rated but still good. Never cared for the Survior Series matches. RAW was still a year away. Hmmm, I guess I would have to see more to give a true rating but what I have seen so far means nothing to me. 1996 ECW Blah! The first part of the year had Rey, Juvi and Psichosis. The rest of the year has nothing I really care to see again... maybe if I get the TV in a super cheap bulk buy or something.

For 1994 All Japan, part of the reason that there are generally less great matches (at least available) than 1993 (which had great matches every single week, not merely every month) was that the TV decreased from a 1 hour show to a 30 minute show. Therefore, workers who were working hard and geting TV exposure before were often not seen for weeks or only in clipped form.

Sorry man,I thought I covered this already

If interested, PM me for my paypal address.

1. Yes, I am selling to Canada but for any orders outside the U.S., I am asking for $2 extra to help cover the extra shipping costs. So it would be $27 2. As long as I get ten orders, I will still sell these in the future. So, even if you cna't pick them up now, as long as ten other people can, you are good. EDIT: Shit, I had no idea I put 42 instead of $2. Sorry for the mistake

Ok, it took me a little longer than I anticipated becuase of difficulty in acquiring certain matches but I finally completed the 2005 Comps. Anyway, I think 2005 was a very prolific year for match quality... esp. compared to the last few years. Anyway, I am sure I missed some matches that people would argue are MOTYs but I think these comps are a great way to be able to sample different styles and see if there are any gems you may have missed or a cheap way to sample stuff you normally wouldn't see without breaking the bank. Some matches I don't think are MOTYs (Angle-HBK for instance) but received enough publicity at various boards that they should be included. Anyway, I want to get these out there but I also want to make back a little bit of the money I invested in the footage. So, to include as much footage as possible, I recorded each disc in 4 hr mode. The trade-off is that you get more footage but the VQ drops a generation. However, most of the footage is either from a master or digital transfer show so the drop-off is minimal. I tried putting WWE TV on the 4 hour discs but the trasnfer wasn't kind so I included a separate 2 hour disc of WWE TV matches You will get five 4-hour discs for $25 (inside the U.S.) and a 2-hour WWE TV disc for free. There was alot of interest in these before so I hope it is still there. Like before, I would like ten orders before I proceed in making copies. DISC 1 2/20/05 Tenzan vs. Kojima (AJ vs. NJ) 2/26/05 Mistico vs. Ultimo Guerrero (CMLL) 4/2/05 Bryan Danielson vs. Spanky (ROH) 4/3/05 Angle vs. Michaels (WWE Wrestlemania) 5/7/05 Samoa Joe vs. Jay Lethal (ROH) 5/14/05 Bryan Danielson vs. Austin Aries (ROH) 5/14/05 CM Punk vs. Jimmy Rave (ROH) DISC 2 1/30/05 Mistico vs. Averno (CMLL) 2/12/05 Samoa Joe vs. Super Dragon (PWG) 6/11/05 Samoa Joe vs. Necro Butcher (IWA-MS) 6/26/05 Angle vs. Michaels (WWE Vengeance) 7/18/05 KENTA vs Kanemuru (NOAH) 7/18/05 Jun Akiyama/Makato Hashi vs. Naomichi Marufuji/Minoru Suzuki (NOAH) 7/18/05 Kobashi vs. Sasaki (NOAH) 9/11/05 Samoa Joe Vs. Christopher Daniels Vs. AJ Styles (TNA Unbreakable) 9/17/05 Gibson vs. Danielson (ROH) DISC 3 2/16/05 Kawada vs. Kojima (All Japan) 4/25/05 Kenta Kobashi/Go Shioski vs. Jun Akiyama/Genichiro Tenryu (NOAH) 7/9/05 CM Punk vs. Roderick Strong (ROH) 7/23/05 AJ Styles vs. Jimmy Rave (ROH) 7/24/05 Eddy Guerrero vs. Rey Misterio Jr. (WWE Great American Bash) 8/13/05 Low Ki/Homicide vs. Joe/Lethal (ROH) 8/21/05 Eddy Guerrero vs. Rey Misterio Jr. (WWE Summerslam) 9/18/05 Suwa vs. KENTA (NOAH) 10/1/05 Samoa Joe vs. Kenta Kobashi (ROH) DISC 4 1/8/05 Kobashi vs. Suzuki (NOAH) 2/12/05 CM Punk vs Bryan Danielson (FIP) 5/8/05 KENTA & Marufuji vs. Hidaka & Fujita (NOAH) 5/14/05 Perro Aguayo Jr. vs. Mistico (CMLL) 8/14/05 Samoa Joe vs AJ Styles (TNA Sacrifice) 11/5/05 Bryan Danielson vs. Roderick Strong (ROH) 12/3/05 Steel Cage Warfare (ROH) Disc 5 4/24/05 Ishikawa vs. Ikeda (Ikeda Produce) 8/19/05 Chris Hero vs. Arik Cannon (IWA MS) 9/11/05 Yuki Ishikawa vs. Alexander Otsuka (Big Mouth Loud) 10/2/05 Gibson vs. Strong (ROH) 10/2/05 Samoa Joe/Low Ki vs. Kenta Kobashi/Homicide (ROH) 10/14/05 El Hijo Del Perro Aguayo/Mr. Aguila/Hallowen/Damian 666 vs. Pierroth/Apolo Dantes/Mascara 2000/Universo 2000 (CMLL) 11/5/05 Santo v. Atlantis (CMLL) 11/5/05 Nakajima/Sasaki vs. Shiosaki/Kobashi (NOAH) 12/11/05 Samoa Joe vs AJ Styles (TNA Turning Point) 12/16/05 Santo/Casas v. Memphisto/Averno (CMLL) WWE TV DISC 3/17/05 Kurt Angle v. Marty Jannetty (WWE SD! ) 5/2/05 Shelton Benjamin v. Shawn Michaels (WWE RAW ) 6/23/05 Eddy Guerrero vs. Rey Misterio Jr. (WWE SD!) 7/16 William Regal v. Chris Benoit (WWE Velocity) 7/21/05 Chris Benoit vs Eddie Guerrero (WWE SD!) 12/23/05 Rey & Batista v MNM (WWE SD!)

This right here is why I will buy the set. Could tell us why youre so impressed? Ah, because I am a Dick Murdoch mark and I have zero footage of his time with Dusty. I am putting together a comp of his time in St. Louis, Mid South and the NWA but it seems incomplete. While my comp will be finished before this set is released, at least it will give people a chance to go even further back into his career.

This right here is why I will buy the set.

I talked to Dan and he said he had it. His response.... "The video quality is great but the match selection sucks."

When making the Arn Anderson comp, I really found myself loving the hell out of Arn Anderson when I always thought he was rather vanilla before. I think it did me good to expose myself to all that Mid South because I have grown to appreciate the simpler things in wrestling matches and Arn made a living out of doing the simple things.. the best (at least close to someone like Ted Dibiase). I may have to include this match on the Dustin Rhodes comp I have in the works.

Arn Anderson vs. Ron Garvin 4/86 Arn Anderson vs. Manny Fernandez 4/86 Arn Anderson vs. Wahoo McDaniel 5/86 These matches all took place within a relatively short time frame on TV. Arn was the TV champion and the theme of each match is Arn escaping dangerous situations in which he could potentially lose his title. Instead of out-wrestling his opponent or going toe-to-toe with them, Arn stalls, milks the clock and works the crowd up in a frenzy. What separates the matches from each other are what the opponent brings to the table. Wahoo's match had the advantage of appearing on Worldwide so it seemed much more heated thena the other two studio matches. Still, the match that impressed me the most was the Manny Fernandez match in that I always looked at Manny as a lower guy compared to Wahoo or Garvin yet it was Manny who gave Arn the most in the match. Still, these matches are a great primer in what Arn was great at (facial expressions, toying with the crowd's emotions, stooging, bumping) that you can see why the company put him in the position of being in featured televised matches.

The worst part about HHH wielding that influence is it is so apparent on TV. It would be one thing if we read about it in the dirt sheets. It is another that we have to see it every week.