goodhelmet

Meltz comments on No Mercy: --- He thinks this may have the lowest buyrate of any PPV since 1996. --- The show drew 5000 paid but it was easy to get a free ticket around town. --- Meltz said that the big news coming out of the show was no RAW involvement even though they hinted at it on their website. --- He didn't understand why Eddie didn't turn on Batista but that the crowd ending up turning on him with the post-match handshake. He also says the fire casket illicited absolutely no response from the crowd and calls it a WCW-like miscalculation. Star Ratings: New LOD & Hemme vs. MNM *1/4 Bobby Lashley vs. Simon Dean DUD Benoit vs. Jordan vs. Booker vs. Christian *** Ken Kennedy vs. Bob Holly *3/4 JBL vs. Rey Mysterio **1/2 (I am not disputing this rating but I have heard conflicting reports saying this match ruled. Does anyone know what Meltz gave the JBL-Eddie Judgment Day match? This may be a case of Meltz's personal preferences getting in the way of giving JBL his due. Maybe not) Undertaker vs. Bob & Randy Orton **1/4 Juventud vs. Nunzio **1/4 Batista vs. Eddie Guerrero **3/4

Instead of doing a weekly News and Notes with stuff just getting buried in individual comments, I am going to make separate posts based on Meltz's news. We'll see how this works out and if it increases conversation. Anyway, this all appears to be written before the surgery announcement so we'll have to see how it plays out in next weeks' Observer... --- One writing staff member claims Steaphanie buried Ross many times in the past few years. Stephanie referred to Johnny Ace, who she is tight with, as a head of talent relations who works with the creative and not against it. --- Some members of the writing staff believe Stephanie was behind the move, insisting that since Ross moved back to Oklahoma and cut back on his announcing duties that he should be removed from the air because he had bigger priorities than WWE. --- Others noted that if Rock and Austin were stil lthe stars, this would have never happened. --- Meltz says a company person, who is not a fan of Ross, feels bad about the situation. This source also blames Steph and HHH. Supposedly, HHH had issues with Ross from a few years back over pay and when Ross was Vince's hatchet man/ head of talent relations, Ross was instructed to play hardball in negotiations with Trips. When Trips went to Vince, he played babyface and put the blame on Ross. HHH had also complained about the old talent relations dept. being knee-deep in Ross loyalists. When Trips was out with the quad injury, HHH would ask people what Ross was saying about him. --- When Trips busted JR open and blurred his vision in one eye in the MSG match, many believe this was Trips roughing up Ross and this move only confirms those suspicions. --- HHH was upset wih Ross because he was pushing for HHH and Flair to turn babyface because more than 50% of the crowds were cheering for a heel Trips and no one wants to boo Flair. Trips felt Ross was trying to control his career direction because he and Flair wanted to remain heels.

Coach. God, I don't really mind Coach but they wasted way too much time introducing him. Does this mean Lawler plays good guy now? Do they have two heel announcers? I think this was the best the could come up with after getting snubbed by Goldberg.

Did you ever get those shows/matches replaced?

Ahhh, ok. Yah, I think that is more with the announcers spinning that crap and then seeing people buy into the hype. I mentioned this before but when I first started watching ROH, I had to keep the sound down because I would watch it at 2:00 in the morning while my wife was sleeping. Without sound, the crowd never bothered me and the announcing never bothered me. With sound, some of those older shows are annoying as hell and to argue that there is no Sports Entertainment is asinine. It is esp. hard to believe when they have Teddy Hart and Jack Evans jumping off a cage doing thirty twists in the air and then getting back in the ring a minute later to climb the cage and finish off the match with another absurd move with the SAT.

What do you mean, you hope the issues are all around? Do you mean around for collectors to pick up? Do you mean around as in preserved so people can always look at them in a gallery? Can you elaborate because I didn't really understand what you were implying?

I can understand that. The only problem is I need some context here because I still have never seen the scenarios you are specifically talking about. Are you talking about the fans' reactions? For ECW, I think it was a case of them over-hyping the wrestlers after they left. For ROH, can you give an example? I know the WWE wrestlers said CM Punk couldn't work in order to bury him but I don't know of any fan instances that this could apply. Can you elaborate here? I don't know what you are implying. This goes back to examples because I have never seen this. I will tkae your word for it but I cannot accept this position mainly because I have seen some over-generalizations in this thread about these puro snobs but no actual examples or links have been given. This one I can address because I know of several Flair discussion threads. The example you use is wrong and again Flair has never been criticized for using the same move in 2 matches. He dared to use the same move or sequence in 200-300 matches in a row whether the match called for it or not, whether he was a face or a heel. Another valid Flair criticism is that he would work a Flair match regardless of his opponent. It's great to work that kind of match against a Nikita Koloff or El Gigante but the feeling is that this formula held back potentially great matches against better opponents. The most famous Flair discussion I can recall is a discussion that happened on the Wrestling Classics board a couple years back. It was the tOA guys arguing with Meltzer and assorted others about the greatest wrestler and of course Flair's name got mentioned. I have a huge chunk of this saved in a word document and will post it when I get home) I won't argue with any of this. For me personally, it is all about how good the match is. I'll take 60 minutes of goodness with a bad finish over any amount-of-time-you-want-to-put-in-there-of-mediocrity anyday of the week. If the squealing gets on your nerves, I won't argue with you about it. I think it is a shallow reason but it isn't like you are claiming AJW in 1992-3 is inferior to another promotion... similar to what MSQ was pointing out. There is a difference between saying "I don't like it" and "I think it sucks". Ever since I have read Tim's posts he has a good eye for quality wrestling. No doubt! This goes without repeating.

Are there any matches or shows I need to look out for with this guy on them because I have never heard anyone really sing his praises?

See, I chose Owen also but I think Christian is not only a better interview but also better at conveying genuine emotion from me in the skits and angles. Whether it was disgust, humor or sarcasm, I always believed in Christians character. in fact, I think Christian plays his character tp perfection whereas Owen was a little wooden regardless of what jis role was. The one time I can recall actually about seeing Owen show up was when he jumped HBK after coming out of the crowd. As far as wrestling ability and better matches, then yes, Owen has it all over Christian. In fact, I am still looking for that really good-great Christian match because I have never seen it. Hell, Eddie has gotten the best matches ever out of JBL and Big Show so maybe Xian isn't far behind.

I am trying something a little different here. Either every few days, or each week, I am going to draw two wrestlers from the same/different eras, sometimes different promotions, and sometimes from different countries and you guys can debate on who has/had more going for them. I think when we did the WWF Wrestler Tourney, it produced some really good posts and maybe we can recreate that here without the responsibility of choosing every time. So, Owen or Christian... would you rather see Captain Charisma or King of the Slammys? This may be hard because most of us have a soft spot for Owen but try and keep it based on thier ring work, angles and interview skills.

Just keep in mind this isn't an argument over who is the best. This is really about personal favorites for whatever reason.

By all means, bring up All Japan!!! I just gave my reasons for why it remains one of my favoritwes. We each have unique experiences in that regard. Hell, I didn't even touch on the match quality!

You know, this year, I have really been excited about watching currrent wrestling. From ROH, select Japan shows, CMLL, and the 2005 WWE Comps EJ has made me. So what wrestler do you genuinely get hyped up for, whether it is a match announced for a future show, a match you see on a tape or DVD, or someone you will watch regardless of who they are wrestling? Who is keeping your interest in wrestling right now? This year, there have been a few... James Gibson --- His ROH/indy work has been phenomonal for the most part. Tim sent me a few DVDs and now I usually just buy a show that has him featured in one form or another. This can't be the same guy who was stinking it up with Tajiri a couple of years back, can it? Samoa Joe --- Joe has been a monster for a good year now. WhenI see Samoa Joes name on the bill, I want to watch the match. Hell, I'll probably pick up the GBH show because of his match with Liger. I am kicking myself in the ass for not finding a way to see im face off against Kobashi... on my birthday no less!!! Mistico --- My jaw drops everytime I watch this guy. God, I hope he does not go to WWE. Mysterio-Mistico has me hopeful but I don't know if he would succeed or thrive in that atmosphere. Eddie Guerrero --- My Smackdown comps outnumber my Raw comps 7-4 right now. Eddie is the main reason. After seeing him have career matches against guys like the Big Show and JBL, I have faith that Eddie will make the most of ANY situation adn he is one of few WWE guys I genuinely care to watch. I can't even say that about Benoit anymore. Benoit would have been on this list for the last 5 years. In 2005, I don't know if he is in my Top 20.

I am resurrecting an old topic because there are several new "regulars" who may not have participated in threads similar to this one in the past. For me... All Japan (1990-97) --- For me, this promotion single handedly made me interested in wrestling again when I was bout to give up on it for good. In late 99- early 2000, I was fed up with both WWF and WCW and really didn't have the love for wrestling that I once did. I get on the net, start seeking out recommended shows, read up on the history adn become an instant convert. Instead of putting my money into WWF PPVs, I star tpurchasing All Japan tapes adn become obsessed with wrestling all over again. Mid South 1984-86 --- I loved watching UWF as a kid and attended a show before its demise. When I picked up Barnett's Mid South set, I not only revisted my youth but found a new appreciation for guys like Butch Reed, Jim Duggan and Dick Murdoch... guys I never paid much attention to before. WCW 1996-97 --- I had stopped watching wrestling fo about 6 years when I turned on an episode of Nitro, saw these guys dressed in black t-shirts coming out to this catchy as hell theme song, talking shit... and is that Hulk Hogan, WTF? The nWo got old quick but by that time, I had watched enough Eddie Guerrero, Chris Benoit and Rey Mysterio matches to be hooked... and Dean Malenko. I loved Dean Malenko. To see how the company pissed away a good thing is still a bitter pill to swallow. WWF 1997 --- This is almost entirely due to one poster... Some Guy. He converted nearly every episode of RAW for me from 1997 and this was some of the greatest episodic TV from an American company I have ever seen. I watched it live in 1997 but I was much more interested in WCW at the time. When I watched 40 episodes of RAW back to back to back, it took on a whole new meaning.

Mad Dog... The big difference being that ROH has had about a dozen or so matches that are better than the best ECW had to offer. Can you give an example? This is kind of my point... and a point MSQ gets to later on.... is it elitism based on match quality or geography? Only nonsense if they can't back up their opinion with logical evidence based on the match. To me, this is very similar to what SK did wih JBL-Eddie from Judgment Day. He did a bunch of play by play, claimed Eddie caried JBL and slapped some stars on it. Tim dissected his report, repeatedly pointed out flaws and exposed the hack on one match. Now, the Tim-SK match was the case of an "elitist" actually giving a match more credit than the fanboy. Still, it remains a perfect example of someone being able to back up what they write and someone who makes blanket statements they hope will stick. Right, but I think it still goes to being able to successfully articulate why you like one over the other. For joshi, it could be as simple as not liking to see two women inflict pain on each other and from a man's standpoint, I can't really argue that. However, if it was because you thought it was an inferior product, esp. at its peak, I would challenge you on that. Strummer... In a way I can see this but at the saem time there does come a point in time where people start talking in circles. If Herb and this uy were going rounds and repeating the same arguments, I could see why he would end it. sek69... Most def. a VQ snob and I happily admit that. Why would I settle for a 4th gen copy where I can barely make out the participants when I can get the master copy? Clear VQ also helps when you are trying to examine a match closely. See, maybe I live in a bubble but I have never seen this happen... ever. I have never seen or read any puro snob say that it is impossible for American workers to have great matches with other American workers. It kind of goes back to an old example I have used before. I used to think Owen-Bret from WMX was one of the greatest matches I have ever seen... then I discovered tape trading and became exposed to other forms of wrestling. All of a sudden, Owen-Bret was merely really good. In all honesty, I think experience has as much to do with it than anything. To me, this is completely contingent on what match they were talking about.

The problem wasn't if you thought that American wrestling was better than Japanese wrestling. The problem is when you fail to actually give reasons why it is better. When you fail to articulate and support your assertions, then it does become a case of someone not being qualified to properly evaluate the merits of a match or whatever.

A puro "snob" would be just as quick to criticize a bad Japanese match as they would a bad American match. How is this a bias toward non-American wrestling? Isn't a bias twoard what we perceive as good wrestling vs. bad wrestling? Doesn't it ultimately come down to what you want out of wrestling? I don't think anyone here has labelled me a puro snob (at least not to my internet face) but I already admitted in this thread that without All Japan wrestling, I would have quit watching wrestling a long time ago. From there, I branched out to Lucha, the Jrs, old American promotions, etc. At a point when I was only watching All Japan and All Japan Women, did that mean I was a puro snob because I refused to watch a subpar wrestling product (2002-03 WWE) that insulkted my intelligence more than it entertained me?

It doesn't exist. Puro encompasses many different styles and many different promotions that have a different fanbase. Someone who watches All Japan or New Japan are just as likely to frown on the Big Japan death matches as a WWE fan is going to think that CZW sucks. Are there people who have turned their back on American wrestling? Sure and when WWE wrestling was your only option, I can see why. This is why people, such as myself, would have stopped watching long ago if not for the internet, tape trading, and exposure to new promotions. I know several people who have tried to watch Japanese wrestling and couln't get into it for whatever reason. What do we call these elitists who refuse to watch wrestling from a different culture? There are people who don't "get" lucha and others who watch nothing but lucha. So, because a person happens to be devoted to a partiular style or promotion, why are they automatically puro elitists? As a fan of All Japan in the 90s, for every Misawa-Kobashi-Kawada-Taue-Hansen match, there was something on the undercard that would probably make you roll your eyes. For every great Jrs. match I have watched, I have probably seen just as many "spotfests" with blown moves galore. Puro is a nice way of lumping all Japanese wresling together when the reality is much different and to lump fans of puro into the puro elite category is just as ignorant.

http://www.sportsbyline.com/ Click on "listen live"

Other matches listed in the Best Match Nominations thread... 10/17/82 - Adrian Adonis v Hulk Hogan (AWA) 10/19/85 - Ric Flair v Jumbo Tsuruta (AJPW) 10/21/85 - Ric Flair v Rick Martel (AJPW) 10/19/90 - Mitsuharu Misawa, Toshiaki Kawada & Kenta Kobashi v Jumbo Tsuruta, Akira Taue & Masa Fuchi (AJPW) 10/15/91 - Mitsuharu Misawa, Toshiaki Kawada & Tsuyoshi Kikuchi v Jumbo Tsuruta, Akira Taue & Masa Fuchi (AJPW)

I don't think I have ever watched a complete Ahmed Johnson match.

What happened with Ahmed?

Tomorrow is the 1 year anniversary of Joe-Punk II so what other great matches happened this week? The only other one, off the top of my head is Misawa-Kobashi 10-21-97.

I think this is where Loss and I disagree most on what we want out of wrestling. I like the "dance" part of wrestling, the acrobatics on display, the cooperation of two wrestlers telling a story through moves. I have always gotten the feeling that he doesnt care for this part. However, we usually enjoy the same matches, I just think we enjoy them for different reasons.

I agree that the match had some great spots. I even said as much in my quick recap. My biggest problem is that Slaughter had gotten the best of Backlund in his two previous encounters. Why would he play a coward? If it was a smaller guy in there like Ric Flair, I would probably embrace him in that role. However, this is the big bad Sarge not even attempting to be a sadist in any way. I like the match, don't get me wrong. Still, I think there are much better matches including the Backlund-Rose lumberjack match that I watched today but need to rewatch to capture my thoughts.