goodhelmet

I want to know when you think MOTY nominations should end? If we end sometime in November, I can probably have the sets ready at the beginning of the year. If we stop at December's end, we will be able to consider all matches from this year. However, it will be mid-February before we are able to vote and all other MOTY contests will be finished. The drawback is we will be behind the times but the positive is we will be able to vote on a true MOTY instead of a Match of the past 12 months. You decide.

I'll edit this as time goes on and more matches are added... BOLD means I know I have it. DISC 1 2/20/05 Tenzan vs. Kojima (AJ vs. NJ) 2/26/05 Mistico vs. Ultimo Guerrero (CMLL) 4/2/05 Bryan Danielson vs. Spanky (ROH) 4/3/05 Angle vs. Michaels (WWE Wrestlemania) 5/7/05 Samoa Joe vs. Jay Lethal (ROH) 5/14/05 Bryan Danielson vs. Austin Aries (ROH) 5/14/05 CM Punk vs. Jimmy Rave (ROH) DISC 2 1/30/05 Mistico vs. Averno (CMLL) 2/12/05 Samoa Joe vs. Super Dragon (PWG) 6/11/05 Samoa Joe vs. Necro Butcher (IWA-MS) 6/26/05 Angle vs. Michaels (WWE Vengeance) 7/18/05 KENTA vs Kanemuru (NOAH) 7/18/05 Jun Akiyama/Makato Hashi vs. Naomichi Marufuji/Minoru Suzuki (NOAH) 7/18/05 Kobashi vs. Sasaki (NOAH) 9/11/05 Samoa Joe Vs. Christopher Daniels Vs. AJ Styles (TNA Unbreakable) 9/17/05 Gibson vs. Danielson (ROH) DISC 3 2/16/05 Kawada vs. Kojima (All Japan) 4/25/05 Kenta Kobashi/Go Shioski vs. Jun Akiyama/Genichiro Tenryu (NOAH) 7/9/05 CM Punk vs. Roderick Strong (ROH) 7/23/05 AJ Styles vs. Jimmy Rave (ROH) 7/24/05 Eddy Guerrero vs. Rey Misterio Jr. (WWE Great American Bash) 8/13/05 Low Ki/Homicide vs. Joe/Lethal (ROH) 8/21/05 Eddy Guerrero vs. Rey Misterio Jr. (WWE Summerslam) 9/18/05 Suwa vs. KENTA (NOAH) 10/1/05 Samoa Joe vs. Kenta Kobashi (ROH) DISC 4 1/8/05 Kobashi vs. Suzuki (NOAH) 2/12/05 CM Punk vs Bryan Danielson (FIP) 5/8/05 KENTA & Marufuji vs. Hidaka & Fujita (NOAH) 5/14/05 Perro Aguayo Jr. vs. Mistico (CMLL) 8/14/05 Samoa Joe vs AJ Styles (TNA Sacrifice) 11/5/05 Bryan Danielson vs. Roderick Strong (ROH) 12/3/05 Steel Cage Warfare (ROH) Disc 5 4/24/05 Ishikawa vs. Ikeda (Ikeda Produce) 8/19/05 Chris Hero vs. Arik Cannon (IWA MS) 9/11/05 Yuki Ishikawa vs. Alexander Otsuka (Big Mouth Loud) 10/2/05 Gibson vs. Strong (ROH) 10/2/05 Samoa Joe/Low Ki vs. Kenta Kobashi/Homicide (ROH) 10/14/05 El Hijo Del Perro Aguayo/Mr. Aguila/Hallowen/Damian 666 vs. Pierroth/Apolo Dantes/Mascara 2000/Universo 2000 (CMLL) 11/5/05 Santo v. Atlantis (CMLL) 11/5/05 Nakajima/Sasaki vs. Shiosaki/Kobashi (NOAH) 12/11/05 Samoa Joe vs AJ Styles (TNA Turning Point) 12/16/05 Santo/Casas v. Memphisto/Averno (CMLL) WWE TV DISC 3/17/05 Kurt Angle v. Marty Jannetty (WWE SD! ) 5/2/05 Shelton Benjamin v. Shawn Michaels (WWE RAW ) 6/23/05 Eddy Guerrero vs. Rey Misterio Jr. (WWE SD!) 7/16 William Regal v. Chris Benoit (WWE Velocity) 7/21/05 Chris Benoit vs Eddie Guerrero (WWE SD!) 12/23/05 Rey & Batista v MNM (WWE SD!)

I just grabbed hold of a bunch of Mid South house shows and completely forgot RAW was on. Anything else of note happen?

I think Velocity and Heat are both finished with their runs on TV. I know Heat is def. finished.

Yeah, he gave it ****1/4 but that is why people make the nominations. If Hardy-Edge isn't listed in the nominees then it probably has no real shot of being #1. On the other hand, alot of people are pimping Kobashi-Sasaki, a match I enjoyed but would be hard-pressed to vote for as a MOTY. If it got enough attention, I would include it on the set.

Most people liked it, thus it's a contender. Not everything is to be repeatedly viewed with a fine comb. Hell, I believe Meltzer even gave it 5-star. It's definitely a contender. It might not win, but it's a contender. This conflict right here is kind of why I want to do this project. I want to do it in a similar vein to the DVDVR sets but on a much smaller scale and have matches that are highly debatable included. Meltz did give it ***** so it will probably be included. It may be just as fun to pick it apart as it is to watch the greats. Same for Michaels-Angle and any other hyped match.

OK between wrestling and MMA, I can't make two sets of comps. If someone else wants to make an MMA comp, go right ahead.

Unforgiven wasn't free.

Since the year is nearing its end, I am thinking of creating a comp of MOTYCs. It will probably be 3-4 discs long and contain matches from WWE, Japan, Mexico and the Indys. So, lets make a list and see what is worthy of inclusion on the comps.

It doesn't help that I haven't seen any of these matches Sorry.

No, but it did cause my daughter to utter her first word... "SHIT!" See, wrestling illicits a different response from me than it did 5-10-20 years ago. I watch it for different reasons.. .and as you mention later on, reasons that aren't intended by the promoters. RIGHT!!! I can't boo Nikita Koloff. i have already seen the shoot interview and know he isn't really Russian. I can't cheer a babyface HBK because I know he is a dick in real life. The illusion is dead! I need new reasons to cheer these guys on. If it is based solely on their wrestling ability then so be it. Just curious, but how in the hell do you expect to get through the greatest matches project? Agreed. This is also why one of the reasons I watch is for historical context. It is the reason I requested EJ put the McMahon-Bischoff-Heyman encounter on the altest RAW comp. It has some historical context. Trust me... to me, bell to bell is the most important aspect of wrestling to me but I would not be above ordering a Wrestlecrap DVD if I put it in historical context and purely on that level. I certainly wouldn't watch it so I could be entertained. The entertainment would be purely through understanding the time when it happened and the surroundings of what transpired. We ca still have this conversation. A good interview is a good interview. It isn't why I watch wrestling but it can entertain me. No argument there. Still, I don't makr out for interviews because I know they don't really mean what they say. On the rare instance when I do believe a wrestler, I would agree... but that is so rare, I can't watch just for the hope of a good interview. Just the other week, Eddie gave this creepy interview to setup the cage match with Rey and I loved it but when interviews used to hype me up for a show, now, even the good ones won't make me purchase a PPV or go to the house show. Of course not.. it is just that I mark out over different things than i used to. I marked out when I saw Nash throw Mysterio around in 1997. Now, I mark out when I see Terry Funk and Jumbo hold onto an arm segment even after they get thrown out of the ring and then go back in, maintainng the focus on the arm. I mark out for that. And this is where the argument dies. I am definitely not the type of fan that wrestling companies should cater to. It isn't that they have me because the fed already ran me off. It is that I have alternate means of getting my wrestling fix and sifting through a minimum of trash to get to the good stuff. Agreed but sometimes a match is devoid of transitions. That was the point I was getting at. They, whoever they are, are full of shit. I feel old. Maybe it is because I am surrounded by teenagers all day long. I am not saying Hogan did not have good matches but I have seen more bad Hogan matches than good ones. And I think Baba was head and shoulders above Hogan and Inoki. I don't look at Baba doing 6 man comedy tags as the same Baba who wrestled against Harley Race. Also, look at Bab's hands. His chops used to bother me until I realized how big and thick his hands were. That would hurt and I have convinced myself of that. On the other hand, the laziness of Hogan's strikes don't make me think anything he is doing would hurt. I think I would like 100 AJ styles matches more than I would like 100 Hogan matches. Maybe it is the quality of his opponents but I think you are ignoring the good for the bad to make a point. Substitute a guy like Amazing Red and I would agree wholeheartedly. Start the thread. No, not really. I enjoy mindless movies but cannot stand most of the junk that fills a wrestling ring. Now, even when a movie is logical, tells a good story, etc. sometimes I do not appreciate it. For individual wrestling matches, I view them more like songs. I have my favorite songs, I watch certain types of wrestling in different moods the same way I listen to different songs or types of music. Wrestling matches may be visual but they are songs for me. I get bored by what I call lazy songs even though I don't mind some "fun" songs once in awhile. The same concepts apply to wrestling.

I think it is easier to lose myself when I know it is real (a Spurs game, UFC, the Super Bowl) rather than knowing it is worked. And I didn't just mean filler. I meant that there is usually at least 1 or 2 subpar wrestlers on every show that are a waste of my time. I understand the need for diversity and the need to open with a hot opener and then mix in the midgets, comedy, gimmick match, etc. However, rarely does any show ever eliminate the crap completely. Even a show like WM17, which I think is severely overrated, has an abundance of crap. EDIT: Ok, I did not see the lst three posts. I was responding to Rudo's post that directly followed my last one. I 'l respond again.

I think the problem with that is fans nowadays look for different things out of wrestling. I illustrated three different times in my life where I looked for different things out of wrestling. I'm past the point of jumping up and down. I might break a hip. But it inevitably finds its place on the card... always.

Ok, Meltz even mentioned this and I should have edited it... MALE champion. His exact words...

Here is the problem though... I don't know if I, personally, want to see a new kayfabe. I don't miss kayfabe. "Experts" everywhere from Meltzer to Heenan to Cornette all know that once you let it loose you can never go back. I like reading the Observer every week and finding out what went on behind the scenes to see why certain things happened. However, once the bell rings, I want to see how they choose to structure the match and tell their story. I stopped watching wrestling because I knew kayfabe was dead long before it was dead. While I got back into it because of storylines and angles and wrestler involvement (NWO story, Canada Angle, Benoit and Mysterio love), It is alot different watching as a 30 year-old and a 22 year-old. Also, the net has completely changed what I look for in wrestling. I am not saying it is better, just different. Also, I was completely off-base when re-reading the article. Yes, I agree with all of you, and even Dusty Rhodes, that that is the proper way to construct a card. I guess in my old age that I do not have the patience to sit through an entire wrestling card anymore and watch the crap in order to get to the goods.... and certainly not by myself.

Unforgiven Fallout: --- Ric Flair, at age 56, broke Vince McMahon's record as the oldest champion in company history when he won the IC title. --- This was the first WWF/E PPV ever held in Oklahoma. --- The show drew 8,000 fans for $485,000. --- The last Heat aired on this night with Tajiri-Rob Conway being the answer to what was the last live match ever shown on Heat. Star Ratings: Ric Flair vs. Carlito ** Ashley & Trish Stratus vs. Victoria & Torrie Wilson *1/2 Big Show vs. Gene Snitsky 1/2* Shelton Benjamin vs. Kerwin White **1/4 Matt Hardy vs. Edge ****1/4 Cade & Murdoch vs. Hurricane & Rosey *1/4 Shawn Michaels vs. Chris Masters *** Kurt Angle vs. John Cena *** Ultimate Fighter Hero! ---Melvin Guillard was trapped in New Orleans during the Katrina disaster. * He stayed because his fiancee was forced to stay in town with the sheriff's dept. * While water was rising, Melvin pieced together makeshift rafts of housing debris to help transport people to higher ground. *With 90 people stuck where he was at, he stole a water company truck and brought bottled water to people. *He also broke into a convenience strore to get water and food for about 600 people who ended up stranded on the bridge where they were staying. * At one point, Melvin saw an old man who was dying and needed insulin. After looking for some help, and failing, Melvin returned but the man was sead. *When UFC officials found out abut his story, they took him to Las Vegas for housing but he has since moved to Houston (damn, from one hurricane to another) New Japan, Lesnar and the Tokyo Dome Show --- The NJ offices are trying to bill the show as Team Inoki vs. team Former WWE --- It has been officially announced as Kauyuki Fujita vs. Masa Chono vs. Brock Lesnar. Meltz is waiting to see what WWE's legal response will be. Other matches announced: - Yuji Nagata vs. Matt Morgan - Manubu Nakanishi & Kendo Jashin vs. Mark Jindrak & Charlie Haas - Tiger Mask vs. Black Tiger (Rocky Romero) --- Simon Inoki said this show would be broadcast in the U.S. because of Lesnar. Still, at this late date and the lead time needed, a U.S. PPV is unlikely. --- Even with Lesnar announced, tickets are not selling well. As of 9/21, only 6500 seats have been sold for a dome show. --- Inoki is also considering havin Jesse Ventura come in as Lesnar's manager. Most media in Japan aren't even looking at this as a real story and see it as Inoki talking out his ass.

Watched a couple matches last night... Adrian Adonis/Dick Murdoch vs Sgt. Slaughter/Terry Daniels (7/23/84 MSG) I'll have to rewatch this one again. The story was simple but effective. Sarge's underling, Daniels, plays face in peril for most fo the amtch while Adonis and Murdoch beat the living snot out of him. When Sarge comes in, he cleans house but Daniels still loses the match. One of the biggest problems is that you knew who was going to lose before even watching the match. However, I think I have seen better tag matches that if this drops out othe Top 20 it will not be missed. Hulk Hogan vs David Shultz (6/17/84 Minneapolis, MN) What was shown really did not impress me. I think since it was clipped , it is really hard to grasp how good or bad this really was. I think that is my biggest problem with these discs is the inclusion of clipped matches that really don't allow you to evaluate the match fully. This will be in the bottom quarter of my ballot.

I think I strayed off the topic and it s one that Loss and I have debated before but it's a fun topic to discuss so here we go.... Actually, if you watch an entire Indy show, most of the time each match isn't designed to be a MOTY and, for the most part, ROH shows do mix it up. As for PWG, maybe they miscalculated their audience. However, I would stil lwant to see two guys having a logical match that progresses throughout in an attempt to be the best match it could be than to see a stupid spotfest with no rhyme or reason... but hey, that move looked cool. I also think you can have MOTYCs that are worked in completely different styles. Agreed... but I don't watch wrestling for unnecessary highspots or bumps. On one show, sure. But the way I watch wrestling has changed. I have comps of great matches that go back-to-back-to-back-back. Hell, I have made you comps that are designed that way. when we start compiling the Best of DVDs, we will have DVDs with 5-6 MOTDs back to back. I embrace the idea of watching great matches back-to-back. I have spent time watching 90s All Japan marathons. Can't egt enough of it. On a personal note, when I went to Iowa and watced a ton of wrestling. I watched, in order... Flair-Lawler from Memphis, A ton of Mid South inc. Murdoch-Nightmare, Fantastics vs. MX, Jumbo-Funk, Jumbo-Tenryu, and one of the Clash of the Champions shows. My goal was to watch as many great wrestling matches and talk about them. I still have the wite-ups somewhere but the point is that I would rather watch a high quality wrestling product than a typical wrestling show with peaks and valleys. You have even said yourself that when you start taping wrestling shows in Jersey, you are going to keep the best matches and discard the junk. At some point, your experience level allowed you to make the determination what was junk and what was quality. I'm not arguing any of this BUT what I am saying is that MY expectations of what wrestling are have changed. Really, when I was a child, I cared about all of that stuff. I hated Tully friggin Blanchard. I still do but I can sit through a Tully match and appreciate it for what it was. I love Steamboat and still do but I can criticize a shitty Steamboat match as well. If you and I are talking about a match, we don't say, "Oh man, can you believe what Batista did to Eddie?!?!?" No, it is more along the lines of "The fed is botching this Eddie-Batista feud to the point I do not want to watch anymore." You can't deny that as much as you want to lose yourself in a match, and we all do, that you don't watch wrestling the same way you did when you were 13. For me, it isn;t just about the gymnastics part, although I like that as well, but determining the strengths and flaws of a match and evaluating its worth. You do it. I do it. It's what entertains me and for as many reviews that you have done, it is another reason why you watch as well. This isn't always true. Of course we look at things logically and if the moves make sense and if they look "real" and if they are using transitions. After observing it this way, it allows us to make comments like "They were filling up time to go broadway instead of working logically," or when we admit that 90s NJ Jrs. would have meaningless matwork in the beginning and finish strong. Yes, selling is an important part of the match but its only one part. Why do some matches bore you when the crowd is going bonkers (a Sid match?) and others excite you even when the live audience is bored out of their minds (Brisco-Funk 74) ? Well, at my age, if Hogan executes a bunch of shitty moves and does his shtick that I have seen a hundred times before then I have no reason to support him or enjoy his matches. It isn't bullshit to expect him to perform at the highest level. We've made the point hundreds of times that the excitement people get from Hogan now is for nostalgia and how we need to not over-expose him. Also, Hogan could do a hundred SSPs and still be a shitty worker. How many times do I want to see a backrake or a half-ass punch. Young Hogan could probably throw a decent punch. Old Hogan is collecting a paycheck. As for AJ Styles, have you seen any recent AJ Styles matches or just the limited ROH I have sent you? Sometimes, that is the wonder of wrestling as well, seeing a wrestler grow and learn through the years. I can watch 2004-05 AJ and dig what he is doing alot more than I can 2002 AJ. For live events, which is the point the author is talkign about, I can see the point. For watching wrestling in general, I stand by my original point... try and fail rather than not try at all. And still, you can vary a card up where matches are worked in different styles and still have several MOTYCs. Look at the Dreamslam shows or 6/5/89 or any other show listed in the Best Back-to-Back threads. Eddy-JBL is not the same as Rey-Chavo but they both worked on the show they were on. And they would have both still worked on a show like Wrestlemania if they had to go on alongside the Money in the Bank match and Angle-HBK and whatever else people liked. WM17 had three matches that people raved about (Angle-Benoit, TLC and Austin-Rock) but all were different and all were argued as best match of the show. Did the crap make the other matches stand out? Maybe but I still contend that you can have a great show from top to bottom without filler and it will not burn people out. In fact, I long for it. And in many instances, the point is that they are both "Smartly" worked and can reach different audiences while maintaining their core base. If ROH and PWG are keeping their core base intact then they are doing it correctly. Now, whether or not they reach you or the "casual" fan is another story... but what they do is what works for them. If they alienate their core base (like WCW did) and numbers dwindle to the point of folding then you could probably come down harder on them. In 1999, I was jaded. Then I discovered the internet and a new way of watching wrestling that allowed me to not give up on my hobby despite the absolute crap that I was provided with from the Fed and WCW. I am exposed to more matches, more experienced and more educated to the business. If it wasnt for the internet and tape trading, i would have stopped watching wrestling in 1999. So, I am no longer jaded but I also don't have time to sit through crap wrestling shows and accept it because that is what a good wrestling fan does. I also know that I want the illusion it is real BUT I know it is not real. I am no longer secretly wishing it was real even when my mother told me when I was 10 that it was fake. Bro, I have already explained this. The reasons that I watch wrestling have changed. The availability to new products or old undiscovered products and the experience I have with other promotions, other styles, etc. That is what has changed. That is why I prefer to watch about 100 other products before watching the current Fed. And when i do watch it, I need it to be in abbreviated form through comps and DVDs that allow me to skip the crap. No, I do not equate wrestling matches with movies.

Man, reading your post, I swear I was listening to the Dusty Rhodes Secrets of the Ring. So, do I agree with what the guy is saying? No and I also have a problem with being described as a jaded wrestling fan. If I am jaded, it is only because so much crap has been shoved down my throats by companies I used to enjoy that i am forced to seek out alternatives to get my wrestling fix that at least on the surface do not insult my intelligence. If PWG is trying to make every match a MOTY than bravo for them. I would rather see them attmept that and fail than be force-fed mediocre shit on Monday/Friday nights. Jillian Hall's mole skits are different from an Eddie-Rey match but I don't want to have anything ot do with the former. I think each wrestling fan can get something different out of the product but what they appreciate is based on experience. 5 years ago, at my experience level, I would have told you that Owen-Bret from WMX was a bonafide 5 star classic. Now, I struggle giving it 4 stars. I have been exposed to so many great wrestling matches that followed it and preceded that match that it is hard for me to get excited when watching it. What entertains me now is much different from what entertained me 5 years ago. This is what disturbs me about fans that won't even try to experience a Japanese fed or Lucha. No one is saying you have to like it but to not even try is a line of thinking similar to "Ignorance is bliss". When I was a child, growing up in the 80s, win/loss records mattered to me, title holders mattered and it disturbed me when the face lost. Now, all of those things are insignificant when I watch wrestling. As I grew older I had to find other reasons to care... whether it was "workrate", seeing smartly-worked matches play out, discovering strengths or weaknesses of wrestlers or any other attempt at critical thinking. Something has to keep me coming back. I rarely watch wrestling because of the notion that wrestling is entertainment that should not be analyzed or looked at critically. If I can't view wrestling as a higher form of art (which it can be) then there is no real reason for me to watch. There are too many other entertainment alternatives out there. Another aspect I find fascinating is watching wrestling history being made. I enjoy feuds and angles but I find them entertaining from a historical perspective. If I am watching a crappy angle or bad matches from the past, I have to fit it in the historical context it deserves and what was going on behind the scenes to even having it on my TV screen. If not, give me a comp that bypasses the shit altogether. Life is too short. Seriously, why do perfectly normal logical humans get excited about men rolling around in their underwear? It could be some underlying homo-erotic subconconscious longing for sweaty man love... or it could be a way for non-violent people to release thier violent urges. Hell, as a wrestling fan, unless i want to admit I am wasting my life away on trash, I need to find a reason to justify being a fan because the idea of supporting a worked sport devoid of reality isn;t good enough. It could be because of some vain attempt to justify it as an an art-form that deserves a critical look even though it appeals to the lowest common denominator... but it is what keeps me watching.

Just so you know, this wasn't the blowoff to the feud. They had a barbed wire match later that year that was the blowoff. If this match had huge heat, the blowoff was the complete opposite end of the spectrum... silence throughout.

This actually happened a few weeks ago.

Hey, it just so happens, I received this in the mail today!!! I have never seen the match so it will be interesting how my notes compare to yours.