goodhelmet

His kid is seen clearly at the Backlash PPV last year.

I, for one, would not be upset if Benoit called it a career. He had a nice and respected run and he should probably go home and take care of that freaky-looking kid of his.

Right, the whole purpose is to point out all of his fallacies, not his positives. Maybe you can create the "people who done Vince wrong" thread. It's only fair

Heh. I want to rewrite it. Go a little more in depth in the intro and actually make a comprehensive list of the scummy things that McMahon has done. It will probably return sometime this weekend.

Regardless of what promotion or group we decide on, I am invoking executive privilege and requesting that the Mulkeys get a bye in the first round.

I really don't want to just limit this to just WWF tag teams. For key parts of its history, WWF has neglected its tag team division and many of those teams on the list shouldn't even be u for consideration. So, for argument sake, here is a list of possible NWA/WCW tag teams... Sheepherders Fantastics Fabulous Ones Midnight Express Rock N Roll Express Road Warriors The Koloffs Tully and Arn Freebirds Luger and Sting Varsity Club Steiners Harlem Heat Benoit and Malenko Outsiders Raven and Kanyon Hennig and Windham Nasty Boys Southern Boys Windham & Rhodes Dangerous Alliance Hollywood Blondes Meng and Barbarian Three Count O'Hare and Palumbo Bagwell and Luger Mysterio and Kidman Ole and Arn Anderson Terry Gordy and Steve Williams Doom Samoan Swat Team Pillman and Zenk The Mulkey Bros ( !!! ) Steamboat & Douglas

I can't speak for the other two matches but I have these and they should definitely be included, esp. the Kikuchi/Malenko match.

Loss and I talked about a tag team tournament to see who is the best tag team. Regardless of who is listed, I do think we should wait until Loss comes back from vacation to start the tournament. I have a few questions I want to throw out.... Who should be in the tournament? Should we limit the promotions the tag-teams wrestled in? Should we be all-inclusive and allow foreign tag teams (ie Kawada & Taue, Kojima & Tenzan) as well? Should we have a certain cut-off date so we don't nclude tag teams most of us have probably never seen? If you have any other suggestions, ideas, or comments, feel free to post them.

Gino Hernandez & ?Dr. Death? Steve Williams vs. Rock N Roll Express (Mid-South, 1985) To be honest, I haven?t seen Gino Hernandez wrestle since the 80s, prior to his death. I have no World Class footage in my collection and I haven?t actively pursued anything with Gino. I remember loving the Chris Adams/Gino tag team and how great many of those World Class angles were? specifically the blinding of Chris Adams. With that said, this is my first opportunity to see Gino wrestle since I was a child. The girls in the crowd go nuts for the Rock N? Roll Express and I bow down to their ability to work them up in such frenzy. If I had that ability, I wouldn?t be married right now. One of the first things you notice in this match is the size difference between Doc and the other three. He doesn?t look that much taller but he is just huge compared to the other guys. I am looking at the match list and I don?t know of any other instances that Gino and Dr. Death teamed up so I am assuming this was a one shot deal where it is possible Ted DiBiase was unavailable that night so they had Gino as a sub. Gino and Gibson start out and Gibson controls with a side headlock. In a cool sequence I have seen the RnR?s use before, Gibson backs into his corner, applying the headlock, and Morton tags himself in and continues the headlock. Before Gino tags Dr. Death in, he stooges a little bit and does nothing of note before tagging in Dr. Death. When Dr. Death comes in, the size difference is even more staggering since Gibson is so much smaller. Despite the apparent mismatch, this is also one of the better sections of the match since Dr. Death and Gibson play the monster vs. midget game as well as anyone else. At this point, Dr. Death toys with Gibson by shoving him around and whipping him with two hard arm drags. Gibson plays spirit fighter by getting a rollup on Doc when he isn?t looking and returning the favor with some lightning quick armdrags. This was a decent sequence that reinforces the difference in power and speed between the two and was a theme I was hoping they would explore more. Instead, the Rn?R ground Doc with headlock and it just doesn?t seem believable that these two little guys could keep Dr. Death off his feet for this long. When Gino enters the match, he shows me nothing in the ring. Honestly, there isn?t really one move that he does that could identify as a Gino Hernandez move. He stooges a little and plays a decent coward type but he may have the most non-descript offense I have ever seen in a match. Compare that to the RnRs double teams and Doc?s power moves, such as the three consecutive backbreakers, while never releasing the opponent, and a bearhug. You just get the feeling that this match would have been off the charts if DiBiase was in there. As the match continues, Ricky Morton plays the obligatory face in peril but I think he gets way too much credit. After watching the Fantastics, I think Bobby Fulton does a much better job of generating sympathy and building up the tension. I must give the guy his props though because the bearhug segment generated huge heat and the girls were going batshit for him the entire time. When he finally makes the hot tag, the ending comes out of nowhere. Gino Irish whips Gibson but as hits the ropes, Morton quietly tags in. Gino gets a back body drop on Gibson and Morton rolls him up for the pin. I really hate the ending of this match. While the secret tag was neat, I think they could have had a better ending segment with more back-and-forth action. It was as if they spent the entire match (which wasn?t that long to begin with) trying to create a theme but never really exploring it. Where?s Ted DiBiase & the Fantastics when you need them?

Bret Hart vs. Steve Austin (Taker?s Revenge, 4/20/97) This match is the third installment of the feud on PPV. It also has huge shoes to fill as the first two matches are arguably the two best matches the Fed has ever produced. Looking back, it is really amazing how this feud, not the HBK one, jump started the Bret Hart heel turn. At Survivor Series, Austin is clearly the heel but Bret is already being portrayed as a whiner. At Wrestlemania, these two gave us the one bright light on a dismal show and helped cement Bret?s heel turn. It was the next night that Bret Hart turned full heel, attacking America and its support of the anti-hero. So, a month later, Austin and Bret headline a PPV that pays tribute to the Undertaker. After watching this match, the first thing that jumps out is the layout of the match which is a course in Wrestling 101. You have the early babyface shine segment in which Austin clearly dominates. You have the middle portion, where Bret Hart controls the match as he mercilessly attacks Austin?s injured leg. Finally, you have the stretch run where both guys gain and relinquish control leading up to the finish. We?ll get to the finish later but if the majority of WWF/E matches were executed this way, we probably wouldn?t criticize McMahon?s corporate disaster as much as we are prone to do. As previously mentioned, the early portion is the time for Austin to shine and showcase his offense and style of wrestling. Early on, he gains control by mud-stomping Bret down and then using a few repertoire moves (elbow to the chest, suplex, gut stomp) to establish dominance. They take the action to the outside and brawl, an ode to the early portion of the Wrestlemania match. Outside, Austin maintains control by throwing Bret into the stairs twice and throwing him over the guardrail. Back inside, Austin continues to punish Bret with a 2nd rope elbow. At this moment, Bret rolls outside of the ring and grabs a chair. This doesn?t bother me that much because this was when a chair shot actually meant damaging an opponent. Austin gets possession of the chair but Bret dropkicks Austin into the referee, giving us a ref bump early in the match. This segment sets up the middle portion of the match where Bret abuses Austin?s leg. With the ref out, Bret smashes Austin?s knee with the chair. This is by far the strongest portion of the match. Bret is just masterful in dissecting Austin?s leg and begins with Bret helping the ref up even though he initiated the ref bump. After this, Bret attacks the leg by slamming it on the edge of the ring, applying his ring-post figure-four and smashing Austin?s leg while it rests on the ring-post. Back in the ring, Bret continues the leg work. He takes off Austin?s knee brace and jumps on the leg several times while it rests on the ropes. This portion also shows how Bret was such an effective heel in the ring. Helping the ref up even though he caused the ref bump, refusing to release the illegal ring post figure-four, grabbing Austin?s leg and punching him in the nuts? just a few examples of Bret playing his role to perfection. After Bret?s low-blow, Austin returns the favor and takes control. This initiates the final run where both guys try to take advantage of the other. After gaining control, Austin misses a 2nd rope elbow, hurting his leg in the process. Austin tries a suplex to the outside but Bret reverses it and applies a figure-four for some near-falls. They return to the outside where Austin takes advantage of the environment by giving Bret a back body drop into the crowd and dropping him on the guardrail. I love the idea that Austin always maintains control on the outside. If Bret?s playground is inside the ring, Austin?s is clearly outside of it. In a way, this is a disservice to Austin since he wasn?t damaged goods yet and was still a great ?technical? wrestler who didn?t have to rely on overbooked shenanigans to entertain the crowd or tell a compelling story. . Inside the ring, Austin attempts a piledriver and can?t complete the move because of his injured leg. Bret attempts an Irish whip but Austin falls down while running, exaggerating the damage his leg has taken. Another exchange of power takes place as Austin gets a surprise snake-eyes for two and Bret responds with a superplex. In an awesome display of turnabout is fair play, Austin nails Bret in the face with the knee brace while Bret attempts the Sharpshooter. Now, Austin turns the tide and applies the Stone cold Sharpshooter. It is at this point that Bulldog and Owen run down, interfere and eventually end the match after a Bulldog chair shot lays Austin out for the DQ ending. I have mixed feelings on this match. On the one hand, it was set up beautifully and both guys played their roles to perfection. On the other hand, there were a few little things that kept it from matching up to its predecessors. First off, Austin?s selling in the match is frustrating. Early on, when Bret did the most damage to the leg, Austin would attack moves that required pressure on his leg but didn?t sell it. This is most noticeable when he is bouncing up and down on his knees while delivering some forearm smashes. He also forgot to sell the damage when he was attempting the suplex to the outside. He more than made up for this later on when he sold the leg like a champ but the inconsistency early on made it hard not to wince. Another problem I had with the match was the finish. The DQ doesn?t bother me so much but the match just felt like it should have a more satisfying conclusion. Both the Survivor Series match and the Wrestlemania match had finishes that left no doubt who the winner was. In this match, you had the feeling it was designed to continue the feud rather than settle any score. To be fair, Austin continued to feud with the Hart Foundation throughout the summer and helped produce some of the best episodic TV the WWF has ever known. However, as good as the first two matches were, this one just fell short. That isn?t an indictment against this match but a testimonial to how great the first two were. This one had big shoes to fill and didn?t quite get the job done.

Hey Loss, I haven't actually watched this match yet so I am curious... how does the Mexican Death Match stipulation play into the bigger scheme of things or does it at all?

Hey Loss, are we going to see the final results? If not, cool. If so, cool.

When was this said? If you give a time and organization, maybe we can figure out who he was talking about. Or maybe someone else here knows. Good choices all around.

Some World Class matches I found at Obsessed with Wrestling results page. There has to be more than this but it is a start... The Fantastics (Fulton & Rogers) vs. Kelly Kiniski & El Diablo -October 27, 1984 The Fantastics vs. Koko Ware & Norvell Austin (14:00)-November 22, 1984 The Fantastics vs. The Midnight Express (Eaton & Condrey)-December 25, 1984 The Fantastics vs. The Midnight Express (Eaton & Condrey)-January 28, 1985 The Fantastics vs. The Midnight Express in a "two ring no DQ" match for the held-up American Tag Title -May 5, 1985 The Fantastics vs. Rip Oliver & Kelly Kiniski in two/three falls -July 4, 1985 The Fantastics vs. John Tatum & Dave Peterson -2nd Cotton Bowl Extravaganza

From Mid-South for our consideration. I am not saying we should use all these or that they are good. I just think we need to keep in mind that they are at our disposal. Once we decide on which ones to use, we need to decide if we have the best VQ possibl or if we should pursue them elsewhere. I would also like to find out the dates if possible. (we all have these)... Vol. 1 Disc 1 Midnight Express v Fantastics-No DQ-Cornette in a mask Vol. 1 Disc 2 Slater/Buzz Sawyer v Fantastics Vol. 2 Disc 1 Fantastics v Jake Roberts/Williams Vol. 2 Disc 2 Midnight Express v Fantastics (two matches) Vol. 3 Disc 2 Guerreros v Fantastics R&R v Fantastics v Midnites v Guerreros Vol. 4 Disc 1 Dirty White Boys v Fantastics Vol. 4 Disc 2 Fantastics video Fantastics v Dundee/Mantel(w Eddie) Vol. 5 Disc 1 Fantastics v Sawyer/Slater Vol. 6 Disc 1 Fantastics v Sheepherders Sheepherders run in on Fantastics Sheeps/Victory (w Maxine) v Fantastics/Taylor Crockette Cup Hilites/ Fants v Sheeps* (does a full or longer version of this match exist anywhere? ) Midnights v Fantastics Vol. 6 Disc 2 Fantastics v Sheepherders Fantastics v Sheeps *(quad juice) lowlights ( on the tape, the announcers showed highlights but said it was too bloody to show on natl. tv. another one we have to find complete) Vol. 7 Disc 1 Barbed Wire Cage-Sheeps/Victory v Fants/Taylor Gilbert/Sting v Fants Vol. 7 Disc 2 Fantastics v Tatum/Victory Eddie/Sting v Fants Vol. 8 Disc 1 Fantastics* v FreeBirds(& Angel. of Death) Fantastics/Link v Sting/Steiner/Eddie-Losers valet must be painted yellow

Some Guy, I agree with almost everything yousaid. Hwever, for the first HIAC, HBK should not have been able to escape. That is the whole point. You can run but can't hide BS. For Brock-Taker, I thought Heyman's cheating was fine. It wasn't like he found a way in. He took advantage of the cage when it could have been a detriment. also, in the end he paid the price. In the traditional cage matches, the cage doesn't have openings big enough to do what Paul E. did in the HIAC. The worst cage I have ever seen was the cage used in the Stip match between Duggan and DiBiase. Thankfully, no one interfered in that one. Which is why the cage is too convoluted for its own good. If you can't pull it off effectively (and none of them have been) then it shouldn't be done. Ultimately, they have all been what you just said... clusterf**ks.