goodhelmet

Taker's theme song is over... rather the "BONG* is over. And if you let someone squash opponents for 15 years straight, you would be getting pops as well.

This is a little more difficult but I feel I should examione Loss's awesome write-up just to see he is calling it straight... Best Matches: I don't think these have to be separated between PPV, tag, and TV matches. Owen: 1. Owen v. Davey Boy Smith- This is one of those matches that really makes me miss Owen... and Davey for that matter. Everything is so fluid. The peaks and valleys are amazing and everything was executed to near perfection. There is also the angle that serves as a backdrop where the tag partners were disintegrating. Jericho 1. Jericho v. Rock- An absolute magical moment. Jericho had overcome so much throughout his career and even the overbooked parts were done well with his Jericho's history with Steph being at the forefront. The announcers played up the tradition of St. Louis wrestling and the importance of the title and the wrestlers played their part to near-perfection. ---For me, this is a tie. I can't think of anything from either match that makes it stand out as being better than the other. Jericho Supporting matches: This is where I sort of disagree with Loss. I don't think many of those matches he listed for consideration are very good. They may have been better than most of the matches on the card they were on but they weren't very good when held to a higher standard. Some examples of matches that were not up to snuff... The HHH Last Man Standing match may be Jericho's best moment. HE carried Trips to a very good match esp. since Trips was using smoke and mirrors that year to convince everyone he was a great wrestler and many believed him. This match is also an example of what was wrong with the company at the time. Three old guard v. new gaurd matches. Three old guard victories. The 2 Benoit matches were wierd. I liked the submission match much better tha nthe 2/3 falls. THe 2/3 falls had great action but was way too rushed. It is the Cliffs Notes version of the match they should have had. The ladder match they would have later was ok but these two don't need a gimmick. LEt 'em wrestle! The RVD match was really good when considering who Jericho had to carry. RVD even sells more than he ever has before on a more consistent basis. The Rock match from Rumble was pretty disappointing compared ot hte St. Louis match. I didn't think the Jeff Hardy match, the HHH matches (esp. the HEll in a Cell *Barf) or the Christian matches were good at all. I don't blame that on Jericho since those other guys aren't very good wrestlers but these matches are more like examples of the matches we settle for because the best matches were long ago. Owen Hart Owen v. Perfect from Mania is NOT a good match. It was a squah and a pretty quick one at that. It is remembered fondly because Owen was doing flips and reversals no one had probably seen before. I watched it awhile back and was disappointed. Owen v. Bret The WM X match doesn't hold up compared to all of the other wrestling matches I have seen since then but when I first saw it, I was convinced this was a ***** classic. Owen does his heel shtick. They execute their moves perfectly. The drama was tense and the ending was a surprise even for me... even after I knew what happened. Owen's reaction after the match and to end the show was great. This is a very good match. The Summerslam cage match is not one of my favorites. In fact, I was bored with it most of the way. I don't fault the wrestlers but I don't absolve them of all blame either. -Owen v. HBK While it lasted this was really a good match but criminally short. Playing off the deadly effects of the enziguiri was the smart way to go. A match Loss overlooked when talking about Owen's tags (I know you were only counting PPV matches)... Owen & Davey Boy v. Austin & HBK- This smokes any Jericho TV match I have seen. It also smokes any tag match I have seen Jericho in. It is also great to see Owen & Bulldog look on at HBK & Austin as reluctant partners, when just a few months earlier, they were the partners with dissent. Owen v. Vader- This was a really fun big man v. little man match. I just picked up One Night Only (in perfect DVD quality) from my main man, Nik Johns and I think this match deserves more credit than the criminally overrated Bazer v. Perfect. Owen v. Bret Ironman match- This match is really like two matches in one. The first half is the stalling and stooging and restolds that Ironman and Broadway matches are rightfully criticized for. The second half is really a nice story of the brothers trying to setup the Sharpshooter with Owen cheating and conniving in convincing heel fashion. I think if they would have done this on PPV, it would have come of much better. Owen v. Austin- The Summerslam '97 match is a wierd match to watch. In some ways, it is the creation of the entire Attitude era. In others, it is the worst business-exposing match ever played. It was a great match until the end and a warning to kids everywhere not to attempt a piledriver. It was also the reason Owen was never able to elevate to the next level, the reason Austin had to change his wrestling style, the storylinedrive for the McMahon-Austin feud. This was a huge moment... maybe the biggest in the modern-era. ---There are alot of Owen matchups on the TV I recieved from Some Guy that look intriguing. I can't really comment on most of them since Ionly breezed through them. They include... Now, don;t get me wrong. I am not saying these matches are great or even good. Many of them may be there only to drive an angle or a run-in. Some may flat-out suck I don't know. I think, however, that Jericho has the benefit of having the internet to preserve his good matches while Owen has to rely on Scott Keith --Eventually, we will go through these matches in search of the hidden gem. I am especially interested in the 1996 matches, because lets face it, not too many people were watching Raw in 1996. Still, the potential is there. Feuds Jericho- His biggest feuds were with HHH and The Rock. The series of matches with Benoit were pretty good also. I think this is sad because Jericho could have an extended Eddie feud if they were ever on the same brand. HE has never been in the position to feud with Taker to evaluate his potential of carrying Taker to a good match. The HHH feud is a mess. What turned out to be one of the most promosing rivalries ever turned into heartbreak after heartbreak. I have no problem with his match at Mania. I have a problem with the buildup. I thought the TV phantom title match was built up great but the Dusty finish sucked. The Last MAn Standing match could have been JEricho's chance to become as mainstream as Austin/Rock but none of the new guys (Angle, Jericho, Benoit) were allowed to go over that night. The Hell in a Cell was a joke. Jericho should have won that and been seen as a live threat. Everyone and their mother knew that was Jericho's time. The Rock feud could have been one of the best feuds of all-time. Unfortunately, even this feud wasn't all it shold have been. The Rumble match was ok. The No Mercy match was great. The Vengeance match was good. I never thought they continued this the way they should have. These two should have had ironman matches, ladder matches, cage matches, stip matches, everything. It was that good.... but the NWo angle and HHH's return overcame it all. --We've already established that Jericho and Asutin have never had a great match together, although the tag match with the Power Trip v. The Candians is prasied, and that is a knock against both guys. Theese two should have blown off the roof. Instead, they fizzled. Owen Hart ---His feud with Bret Hart was one of the top 2 or 3 feuds ever produced by the Fed. The buildup was done correctly, the elevation of Owen was handled great, it blended in with the Backlund feud seamlessly, and even hadan eventual payoff. It was so strong of a feud that Bret reforming the Hart Foundation was a bigger deal because of their history together. ---His series of matches with Davey Boy. This may or may not be in the "feuds that could be great" category. The tag team partners in dissent story was pretty well played out on TV. It produced one of the better matches to ever come along on free TV. You could turn to these guys to support the midcard when the only thing you had was a decent main event matchup in most instances. --The Hart Foundation angle. Overall, this was one of the best periods of wpisodic TV ever. The backdrop of it being a shoot/work only enhanced its appeal. ---The Ken Shamrock feud. I give Owen credt for something not many other people were able to do... get watchable matches out of Ken Shamrock. The blurred MMA/Werestling matches had their appeal and Owen even seemed like a legit threat after that. Not great matches by any means but the best I have seen out of Shamrock. Politics Both were victims of politics, no doubt. Jericho- Could have been the next big thing. His reception into the company was huge. He verbally battled with the Rock and anyone else who wantewd to throw down on the mic. Then, he couldn't "work". He was too "sloppy". Stuck in midcard hell, he finally ascended to the op, in part thanks to the Rock, but also at a very key time in the company... when HHH was out. If Trips was still healthy, I don;t think Jericho would ever become champ. Trips had so little respect for him, he gave Jericho nothing in their feud. This is what bothers me when giving Jericho the edge here. Jericho was lucky that Trips was injured when he had his shot. If not, he would have been stuck in more crappy X-Pac feuds... or worse. Owen- Owen had a double edged sword against him. Shawn refused to work with him because of Survivor Series and Austin never forgave Owen after Summerslam. They just happened to be the guys carrying the company from late '97 through 99. Owen was a victim of politics and a blood feud with Shawn would have been ideal in order to capitalize on Montreal. Instead, he got to put over HHH. YAY!. I am not saying Owen would have ever been world champ, but if not for the Austin neckbreaking incident, it is very possible, he could have had an extended feud with Austin during Austin's peak and we culd be calling Owen former world champ... even if just or a day. Overall, as Loss veered to Jericho, I veered to Owen. I think Owen's best matches are better than Jericho's. I think his feuds were better and the Bret Hart one was the one that actually had a build, a peak and an end. I think that Owen had bigger obstacles in his way and that he didn't have the benefit of as much footage as Jricho or as fresh of memories from most involved here. Being world champ isn't really a valid reason to vote for someoen, or I could argue that TAker should win this tournament... Owen Hart EDIT: I also completely overlooked Owen's run as King of the Ring and this added another layer to the Bret feud.

Talk about your Satan v. Beelzebub matchup. HBK

THis sin't even close. Davey smokes Jake in everything except "better heel". Davey Boy Smith

Marty, great friggin' post!!!!! I agree with what he said. If I need to write a Taker v. Mysterio post like I did for Piper-Smith, I may be up for it. Don't let Taker's longevity fool ya. If squashing up-and-comers and refusing to put over better wrestlers is your cup of tea, vote Taker... just remember this isn't the "best wrestling politician" tournament. Rey Mysterio

Damn, my Davey Boy Smith pimping paid off!!!!

HTQ's right. Until they make the decision to make someone besides Hunter the face of WWe, it wont mean anything. Ultimately, that is what has to happen. Casual fans and us hardcores will have to get the feeling that someone else represents WWe like Rock and Austin during its peak.... or even Hogan from Rock N Wrestling. Now compare those icons to HHH. You see the problem.

I'm glad Marty took me to task for calling out Savage but I think it really comes down to making an argument on why a guy is in the ournament in the first place. In the grand scheme of things, it will prolly be Bret Hart and Austin anyway. But, I think we should go a little deeper to what they mean and what they really contributed. I think this thread actually did that. I am still waiting for the Angle guys to defend THAT argument.

Actually Nik, it is best to contain the info in here. Hopefully, people will take into account what is being said from both sides and form an opinion or keep it in mind for future rounds.

Can the people who listed Kurt Angle please explain your position!

I did a list previously and there were some decent results so I guess I can mix it up again... Favorite Match involving Blood: Favorite World Title match (any promotion): Favorite match that you like but deep down you know it really sucks: Favorite Tag Team match: Favorite cage match (Wargames excluded!!): Favorite Wargames : Favorite three-way match: Favorite comedy match: Favorite match between wrestlers who have never been World Champion (in any company): Favorite match involving wrestlers with face-paint:

It really comes down to your criteria. You can even use different criteria for different matchups. However, I don't know if wresling would have been as big but it is possible it would not have been as cartoonish. And maybe that is a good thing. then again, I was a wrestling fan before Hulkamania. It may give me a different persective since wrestling is synonymous with Hogan to many of you.

Once again, I refuse to give any credit to a man who has damaged the business moreso than any other person save for Kevin Nash Honkytonk Man

Chris Jericho. Kurt Angle may be the most overrated wrestler Ever... from nearly all circles.

HOgan;s impact is unquestionable but was it all a positive impact? Hell no. I'll also go with the better worker and one of the very few reasons I will still tune into the WWF product. Chris Benoit

I love Foley but this isn't even close. Bret Hart

Yeah, to compare Owen's WWF career to Flair's career is absurd. Flair was a disappointment as Fed champ. He had a great moment at Rumble 92 and a decent feud with Savage. Owen, on the other hand, had great matches with HBK, Bret, Davey, Vader, Furnas and Lafon, and so on and so forth. The BRet feud was better than any Flair feud in the Fed. In fact, since Flair has come back to WWe, he has done more harm than good. He has become HHH's lapdog and is def. an embarassment in the ring. I love listening to him on the mic then he has to ruin it by going out and kissing HHH's a$$ or having a horrible match. This is Owen's all the way. Owen Hart

DiBiase. To vote Shawn here would be to admit that he deserved the praise he has recieved when Ted was such a great performer. Shawn was a great ego.

Taker... only becasue he has been carried to good-grerat matches

We should have a blindfold match to settle this... Jake the Snake

I tried looking at this from all angles because I really feel that people voting for Piper aren't looking at it from his entire career. A tough pill to swallow for someone who voted for Ricky Steamboat. For two years, Piper was the man. I don't argue that. But I do want to look at what he did in and out of the ring while he was there... Piper's Notable Matches: Piper & Orndorff v. Mr. T & Hogan: Probably the single most important match for Piper in terms of his worth. Unfortunately, I can't really give any of the credit for this to Piper. He had some good promos. He held up his end but this match was all about Hulkamania. You could have thrown Volkoff and Shiek opposite T and Hogan and had the same electricity. Piper v. Mr. T: An embarassment. Not something we should remember Piper by. Piper vs. Adrian Adonis- The match was ok, however, the angle was great. Adonis's Flower shop was such a heatgrabber and seeing Piper redeem himself in his "farewell" match was a sight to behond. And for better or worse, it actually propelled Brutus Beefcake up a notch. One of my favorite moments in wrestling. Piper v. Bad News Brown Anyone who can watch this and not be offended should be ashamed of themselves. The Fed had a chance to make Bad News the ultimate badass. Instead, they made it a joke. Piper v. Bret Hart: Another great Piper moment. I think the match is overrated myself but the angle and story surrounding the match was great. If you have any other Piper matches or feuds of any worht, please remind me because i am shocked people would vote for this guy based on these limited high profile matches. If it is a matter of drawing money. Piper got lucky. He was placed in a feud with Hulk hogan based on the reputation of his feud with Jimmy Snuka. He was also put in a position that you could have selected ANY heel on the roster (Orndorff, Muraco, Adonis, Honky, DiBiase, etc.) and had some kind of impact since you were fighting the most significant wrestling icon to ever exist at that point. Now on to Davey Boy... Davey was never a headliner like Piper. Just like Foley was never a headliner compared to HHH. They were two guys who were put in different positions because of different factors. Again it comes down to doing something with what you are given. A look at Davey's notable matches.... British Bulldogs v. Dream Team (WM2) : The best match on the card and really a display of how Davey and Dynamite were a near perfect tag team. The dynamic of the team allowed for both guys to bump like pinballs, carry the match with high-impact offense and be smart enough to allow the match to shape itself. While this si the only Bulldog match I will mention, they also had a great run with the Hart Foundation that produced decent matches. Davey v. Bret Hart: I like this match. I know Bret said Davey was blown up after 3 minutes and he carried the match. Maybe he did. However, Davey still kept going for another 20 minutes and recieved one of the wildest receptions I have ever seen. Did Davey draw? In England, absolutely . This was a case of the WWF placing him in a position to succeed and him taking advantage of it. I give him credit for that. Davey v. HBK (feud): These two had some eally good matches in the mid-90s. Davey was versatile enough to be able to hold his own and run with Shawn while also being big enough to be percieved as a real threat. Compare Davey's professionalism with Shawn's as Shawn throws tamptrums in the middle of the ring while Davey keeps doing his job. Davey v. Owen (several matches): THe finals of the Euro Title belt is one of the best matches the fed has produced. I'll have a review up late tonight or early tomorrow. These two took a mini-rivalry within thier tag team and let it build to the eventual Bulldog face turn. Although that plan was scrapped, the resulting Hart reunion was great TV and when I finish the Hart Foundation comp, you'll be able to see for yourselves. Davey v. HBK: The One Night Only Match. I have only seen this in two forms... bad VQ and clipped. BUT one thing stands out. If HBK fights anyone but Davey, the mood of the match and HBK's heelness in England doesn't have as much impact. The country embraced Davey and he delivered. he also did what Bret Hart could never bring himself to do... drop his vanity belt in his home country to put someone else over. Once again, Davey proves hmself to be the ultimate professional. Davey v Shamrock: Bad angle, bad match, bad idea. Dog food Ruff Ruff Davey v. Diesel: Ugh... it's Kevin Nash. But others have gotten a good match with Nash where Davey couldn't. Then again, how would Piper fare against Nash? Maybe worst match ever? Davey's return: It is hard for me to judge this era because WWF was sort of caught up in post-Russo syndrome but there were also some really absurd angles going out there (Bossman's dad anyone?). However, the Fed had enough faith in him to play with the big dogs and I don't think he embarassed himself. So, in conclusion, with big angles, you could probably go with Piper although Davey was in some great angles AND feuds. In big matches, Davey destroys Piper. Longevity? Davey again. In drawing money, I would have loved to have seen a Hogan v.Davey match at the height of Hulkamania. Would it have been different for people's perceptions? However, when Davey was called to draw, and set up to succeed, he did. More of a professional? Davey. He put over who he needed to. Piper's feud with Hogan is always mentione dbut it was never settled and Piper never put Hogan over. There was never a satisfying conclusion. That leaves a bad taste in the mouth. Piper, did put over Bret Hart but Bret has poven that you could put most people in the ring with Bret hart and he'll make you find a way to care about it. once again, gotta go with... Davey Boy Smith

Rey Edge needs to join his "brother" in the death pit in a permanent 3-second pose.

I'm also going with Eddie but for a different reason, and actually a reason Loss had indicated when voting for a different wrestler. Eddie did more with less. he wasn't handed anything on a silver platter. He was never shoved down the fans' throat like Rock. He didn't have to adjust his game. When Rock wrestles with a good wrestler, the amtches are usually good. When he wrestles with a bad wrestler, the matches are usually awful. With Eddie, there is always a shot that the match will be good regardless of the opponent. Eddie