goodhelmet

The problem with both Austin and Flair is that their personalities (Cocky gigolo, beer-drinking redneck) are designed to be heels. So, even when working face, they tend to fall into heel tendencies when working a match.

Hey Los, just curious, but what is the VQ on all of those matches?

1. Ricky Steamboat 2. Toshiaki Kawada 3. Mick Foley 4. Bret Hart 5. Eddie Guerrero

I believe we have to wait until Friday to see who is in and who is out.

I want to vote yes but with caution. I think as long as Vince McMahon is running the WWF that size will matter. After he dies of complications due to steroids, it really depends on who gains the power.

I was rthinking about this and you almost don't want to have a rigid criteria. If you do that, it would come down to 4-5 guys and there wouldn't be much point in having 64 of them.

I agree with you Coffey but who whould replace them?

Oh, I am aware of that. My point was that I would be more than willing to buy from Alfredo than Lynch if it meant I didn;t have to capture the video myself and convert it to DVD myself. If it is already on disc, I save myself some time and effort.

I would be more than willing to buy from Alfredo if I didn't have to worry about converting the stuff to DVD myself.

Agreed. Maybe his comments on the inner-workings of the compny would be interesting as well as some good Bradshaw hazing stories. It really depends how bad he wants his job back that will determine how in-dpeth his shoot is. I also fear that the shoot would really just focus on the Lita situation. I can get that news from Hardy's own website. On the other hand, I hope the crowd keeps killing any and all Lita segments until she is released.

Exactly! Where is the hate? If it was just about respect, I wouldn't beg for blood. Hell, I thought Steamboat-Savage was a great angle that played out and paid off... but I wasn't expecting them to open up some gushers either. Flair-Funk is a case of them not living up to their reputations. Also, I want to elaborate on my star rating. If you gave the match ** or *** or even ****, I wouldn't object. Since I am not a star rating kind-of-guy, the **1/2 stars is more of a response to the OMG ***** classics vibe the match gets around the net. Since it only fulfilled half of what I was expecting, it got half the rating. Now, maybe I need to watch Tully vs. Magnum in the cage to compare the two "I Quit" matches together. I may even compare it to Austin-Hart since that was also a monumental moment that outshines this one.

You rule. I am just really interested in some of that lucha from your list. Also, I know Alfredo recently converted from VHS to DVD. Do you know what kind of quality his lucha is in? I know the Japan Classics and some of his comps were really good VQ as well. I was hoping his lucha was the same.

Let me ask you this... do you think Jeff could come back to ROH with Matt? We both think Matt could be successful there but also saw the reaction Jeff got the first time around. Would they react differently if it was the Hardys together?

It is invaluable when exposing people to matches they haven;t seen. I can get through 3-4 comps a day when I have limited distractions. Also off-topic: Tim, do you still have my address and are you still going to send along those DVDs? As far as money is concerned, just let me know how much I'll need to pay and I can paypal you or write a check.

It's a match they had built up. I was expecting it, not becuase they advertised blood, but because this was two of the biggest bleeders in the business. Of course, I wanted to see blood. Flair and Funk had bled so many buckets at this point in thier career, any one who followed them would have expected it. Agreed Funk turned face, but in the match, he was the heel. Act like one. Did Funk really need to cut a promo threatening to break Flair's neck? Actions speak louder than words and I would have rather he worked on the neck than talk about what everyone knew. As for the piledriver, this was alot closer to the piledriver being a life-threatening career ender than as a transitional move it is known for today. Of course you sell a move like the piledriver... and especially one on the concrete. Hell, even as Flair was kayfabing it up, the one he took in the beginning of the feud was on a table. I fogot that concrete was softer than wood. I'll test that out next time I do some backyard wrestling. The weapons, the heel-face dynamic, the lack of selling, no sustained heat segments. These are just examples of what was wong with the match. If using a weapon was such a big deal, when Funk whacks Flair over the head with the microphone, why doesn't Flair sell it like death? You just told me it was a MAJOR major turning point in a wrestling match. Not in this one. The figure four ended the match, sure. Now, you are the one seeing things that are not supposed to be seen. Funk didn't stop before his leg was broken. He stopped because he thought his leg WAS broken. If it is a move that could break his leg then he should have been selling it to really get the move over, a move that was already established as a leg killer. The lack of blood was just one example of why I think this match fails. If the match would have been all that and a bag of chips, I would have stated as such. I didn't want Funk and Flair to fail. I just think it did, whether people's fondness for this era has them thinking otherwise. I've seen the match before. It wasn't that I had perconceived notions of what I wanted to write. I knew the match was overrated before I reviewed it... unlike SK who probably wrote his shitty review of the JBL-Eddie match before he ever saw it. I wanted to like the TAKA-Sasuke match from RAW but the match sucked. I don't remember the Canadian Stampede Juniors match being as good as it actually was but I gave it glowing reviews. That is why I watch the matches, to see if my memory holds up as good as it should. In this case, my memory served me right... and it isn't for any hate of the participants. I could always review the Flair-Jumbo matches and give Flair a ton of praise (OK, more Jumbo praise than Flair). Funk-Jumbo 76 is one of my favorite matches of all-time. I love the Funks feud with Brody, Snuka and Hansen from All Japan. Make sure you don't confuse my dislike for the match as a dislike for the wrestlers. Also, it was their reputation as bleeders and great brawlers that raised my expectations of the match. If they can't live up to their part of the bargain, that is their fault, not mine.

Terry Funk vs. Ric Flair ?I Quit Match? (Clash of the Champions IX ?New York Knockout) Blood feuds. If you have spent just a few hours watching wrestling, you are bound to come across a match that either begins or ends a blood feud. We talk about them constantly. ?Did you see how Magnum just jammed that spike in his eye?? ?Eddie brought the hate against that racist son of a bitch? ?Austin never quit! Austin never quit!? ?Lawler punished Idol.? They are there for us to witness, to revel in the hate, to see the two mortal enemies do everything in their power to inflict pain. When you want to sell a few more tickets, give the impression that the vampires will see blood. That will put asses in the seats. When you want a good brawl, blood is an important component. If you don?t provide blood, you better be able to see the eye swelling shut or the skin turning blue from the brutal shots taken. The payoff. Every good feud should have a payoff. Typically, it ends with the face overcoming the odds and giving the crowd no doubt who is the better man. The fight should be the peak moment, when the fans leaving the arena are satisfied knowing that their hero, or anti-hero, took care of business when it mattered most. It is a way for the wrestlers to move on to the next feud. For the heel, the payoff can give him motivation to torture the next victim, knowing in his mind, he should have won the last feud. For the face, it can be the springboard to the next antagonist? knowing in his mind, he will be victorious in the end. The ?I Quit Match? was a match that was begging for blood and demanded a payoff. While failing miserably in the former (because of the No Blood rule imposed by WCW) and achieving the latter, it still felt unsatisfying. Funk had put Flair through a table on a night that called for celebration (Wrestlewar 89). He embarassed and tortured him for months leading up to this match. This was a feud that demanded blood and should have left the fans knowing that when the loser said ?I Quit?, he meant it because the other guy just beat his ass to a bloody pulp and ended his career. Onto the match? Flair chops Funk immediately and sends him over the top rope. Funk does his drunken sell on the outside, selling the impact of Flair?s chops. Back in the ring, Flair chops the shit out of Funk again. This time, Terry bails and takes a breather. They are really putting over the impact of Flair?s chops but this is also when I notice the first flaw of the match. These guys are way too tentative in a blowoff ?brawl?. Compare it to Austin-Hart from Mania, or Jumbo-Tenryu from 6-5-89, Magnum-Tully in their ?I Quit? match, or even Eddie-JBL. In all three of those matches, those guys come out to fight and the energy is felt through every inch of the building. In this match, there is no immediate energy that carries the match through. Shortly after, Funk even applies a side headlock. It doesn?t last long but why in the hell would you apply a headlock in an ?I Quit? brawl? It is one of the many little things that keep this match from obtaining greatness. Flair gets Funk down and begins to choke him. This would be great if Flair was the heel, a role he is pretty damn good at, but he is the face. If Flair chokes Funk, it should be because Funk did something earlier on in the match that demanded it. Maybe he was demonstrating that he would have to resort to his old dirty tricks to win the match. Who knows? It just seemed out of place, much like Funk?s earlier headlock. In fact, this reminds me of a problem that would plague the entire match. Funk never fights like a heel. This is one of the meanest men in the business and he can?t kick Flair in the nuts? An eye gouge, an eye-poke, pulling Flair?s hair, a low blow, choking Flair out while berating the fans? any of these things could have been done to demonstrate the desperation Funk feels in trying to put Flair away. It never happens. There is never a tease of a foreign object, unless you count the microphone being used as a weapon?once? in the entire match? at the very beginning. Hell, Gary Hart had the branding iron right fucking there!!! The closest we get is Funk setting up a table that would eventually be used against him. Early on, a minor theme is started that actually plays out quite nicely. When Fliar gains an advantage, it is through his vicious chops. Funk, on the other hand, takes advantage of situations with the best punches in the business? and he dishes out a lot of them. Unfortunately, we are still in the early portion of the match. Funk works Flair over with his punches and grabs the mic. He whacks Flair over the head with the mic but Flair practically no-sells the shots and begins to fight back immediately. If this was logical, this would be the point in the match where Funk works Flair over to the point where he could have generate some heat by playing the true role of ruthless, heartless, crazy old Texan. Insead, Funk goes back to some more punches and asks Flair to quit. He wants Flair to quit after a headlock and a bunch of punches. If he would have mixed in a move that actually inflicted massive damage, I could believe it. Instead, it seemed rushed and unnecessary. Funk continues to hammer Flair with punches but receives a Manhattan drop. Funk sells it for a few seconds and gets the advantage right back. Again, the flow of this match is just nutty and we haven?t even hit the halfway point yet. Case in point? before Terry can sustain any kind of control, Flair chokes Funk and chops him to death. They brawl outside the ring and Flair dishes out some punishment. Now, Flair wants Funk to quit. Again, there is nothing in the match that would make me believe that either man is ready to quit. Maybe they were trying to sell the stipulation but it was completely unnecessary. Funk breaks Flair?s momentum with a swinging neckbreaker and Funk cuts a full promo in the middle of the match. ?You remember your neck Flair? You remember your neck? Don?t you want to quit before I hurt you?? ? At this point, the match comes into more focus. After Terry?s mid-match promo, Funk goes for the piledriver and hits it. They ask Fliar to quit but he refuses. Terry legdrops Flair?s face for good measure and tosses Flair out. This is the first time in the match you really get the sense that either man is in trouble. Out on the floor, Funk piledrives Flair on the fucking floor. This broke Ted DiBiase?s neck for chrissakes (work with me here), yet Flair continues with little effort, holding his neck to ?sell? the pain. This is the point in the match where they completely lost me. Back in the ring, Flair gains control with some bionic elbows and makes a Superman comeback. He rams Funk?s head into the table Terry had setup earlier. Funk tries to get away but Flair jumps on his back, ramming them into the guardrail. He then slides Funk across the table as Funk lands into a chair. For good measure, Flair crotches Funk on the guardrail and gets them back in the ring. A kneedrop and a Manhattan drop kickstarts Flair?s work on the leg, something Jim Ross also notices. Funk tries to get away, selling the damage he received to the leg. Flair tackles him on the outside and gives Funk the shin breaker, further damaging the leg. A figure-four attempt is blocked by Terry Funk when he uses some good-old fashioned punches. Flair continues to work on the leg and eventually applies the figure-four. At this point in time, Funk quits and the match ends. If you notices, the times I sounded genuinely excited were when the two wrestlers teased the themes of injured body parts. At one point in time, I thought the match would progress with Funk absolutely destroying Flair?s neck to the point he would be looking down the rest of the match. After the piledriver on the floor, Flair never sold the neck again. At the end of the match, Flair works in his trademark moves that soften up the legs, setting up the figure-four. The entire process of working the legs up until the point that Funk quits was about 4 minutes, if that long. I think they had the right idea in working with the injured body parts but they never developed those themes fully. Now, if you want blood, you didn?t get it. This is Ric Flair and Terry Fucking Funk. I?ve seen Ric Flair bleed by taking a rake to the eyes. Terry Funk was in some of the bloodiest, grotesque matches I have ever seen? and that was before he was hardcore! If these two aren?t allowed to bleed, then this match should have never taken place. They say you can?t fault the wrestlers for the limits imposed on them but it does affect the match in a negative light. Fuck it, bleed hardway and say it was an accident. If this were just another match on some random card, I probably wouldn?t be so critical but it wasn?t. It was the payoff to the blood feud and the end result was unsatisfying. Compare this to the Magnum TA-Tully Blanchard ?I Quit? match and tell me which match had better use of the gimmick, better participation from a manager (Baby Doll?s interference is what cost Blanchard in the end), better definition of heel-face roles and a better ending. To add insult to injury, Funk barely sells the leg damage after the match as he shakes Flair?s hand. One more reminder that this match wasn?t all it was cracked up to be and leaving this vampire ding of thirst. One of the biggest factors people mention in wrestling is the suspension of disbelief. At only one point in this match did I believe that one wrestler hated the other (Funk piledriving Flair onto the concrete). In a blood feud where so much is at stake, you would think realism would be the selling point of the match. Instead, its lack of realism is what makes me think this is one of the least effective brawls of all-time. Let's count the number of moments where realism (and my suspension of disbelief) are thrown out the window. 1) Terry Funk's drunken selling. 2) The early headlock and tentative beginning 3) The rush to get over the gimmick 4)Flair's superman comeback and lack of selling from the concrete piledriver. 5)The lack of blood 6)Funk forgetting to sell the leg in the end. Anyone who thinks this is a ***** match really has to ask themselves why they watch wrestling. Maybe they have been conditioned to think that a great moment or distant memory automatically produces a classic, manufactured and synthetic like the fiberglass vehicles being pumped out of some Toyota plant. When Dames asked me what I thought of this match, I told him it wasn't a five-star classic and begged and pleaded with him to drop his preconceived notions of what he had read and examine the match with a critical eye. He didn't. It is times like these where I feel it is necessary to call out these legends and I demand, in 2005, a rematch, complete with blood, a flaming branding iron, possible broken bones and Flair being carried out on a stretcher (permanently retiring) or Funk being wheeled out with his legs crushed to pieces. Give me my payoff!!!!! In an earlier thread, I said I don?t think I have ever given a definitive star rating for any match but that is about to change? **1/2 because this match was half of what it should have been and twice the disappointment.