goodhelmet

I would agree with all except charisma. RVD's charisma is an intangible that he just has. I would also add "look" and "Uniqueness" to something that RVD has over Jericho. Unfortunately, Jericho is an era where the long-haired rocker-type is far too common. Edge, Xian, HHH and so on. RVD may have a similar look but the 5 o'clock shadow, stoner appeal is enough to make him stand-out from those guys. It also helps that his moveset, while convoluted and sometimes hokey, is completely different than any other guy out there. Elaborate. So would I. I am not disputing who is better. I am looking at it from a distance and who would be more marketable and could actually define a product. I don't really care for ECW and would have a hard time finding one four-star RVD match (Ironically, maybe the match with Jericho) but I think RVD could have a better chance to appeal to the masses than Jericho. to the smarks, like us, I think we would all rather have a best of Jericho tape instead of a Best of RVD tape.

Hey, Jericho is entertaining, a great wrestler, great on the mic. whatever... but I don't think he has the charisma that RVD had. RVD has that and could have displayed it even more if given the ball. I truly believe that if RVD had 1. won the ECW world title and 2. not been injured that ECW would have survived. Don't get me wrong, I don't think RVD is a great worker or a great interview but there was a point when the fans gravitated to him regardless of the circumstances, moreso than Jericho at anytime in his career.

It isn't just that he was over... he was unique and everything that guys like Randy Orton, Batista, Cena aren't. His gimmick was the lack of one, yet, people wanted to be like him or at least watch him. This was what made guys like the Rock, Austin and Hogan truly unique. They were so different and stood out from everyone else (because of mic work, ring style or the character). RVD stood out regardless of his mic skills or match quality. Moreso than Jericho or Benoit or whoever, the biggest ball dropped was RVD.

I'd have to review some tapes and whatnot but I think the fans latched onto Foley before the sock.

Mick Foley - I am a huge Foley mark. I won't lie about that but I see both sides of the argument. Foley taking unprotected chairshots and falls off and through the cage did not help the business in any aspect. However, in ECW, in the Japanese Death match tourney, in WWE, in ROH, his promo skills are gold. I think Foley sells a match better than Flair. I think Foley sounds more reasonable than Flair. I think he is funnier than nearl every other promo guy out there. I think the reason he connects so well with the audience is the appearance that he is just a regular guy who is a masochistic screwball. Roddy Piper - A rambling nut but a personal favorite. I loved Piper as a kid. I like listening to him talk now just because the guy is insane. I think I was gwenuinely sad after watching the My Way Video when he "retired". When he beat Adonis at WM3, it ranks as one of my favorite WM moments. Randy Savage - Another personal favorite. In early Rock N' Wrestling era WWF, Savage was the man. As stated before, his feuds were always more interesting than the top Hogan feuds (save for maybe Andre). He also has had the best Mania matches of the first few years (Steamboat, Flair, Warrior, Hogan, Dibiase). Those matches were saved by Randy's ring savvy (except the Steamer match) and I ive him his props. I don't really care about his WCW stay but I will say this... the top-rope elbow is one of those moves that simply seemed outdated in the nWo/Attitude era. Midnight Express - When I think Midnight Express, I think Eaton-Condrey. My strongest support for the NWA came during their run and I hated them with a passion. That is more indicative of Cornette's ability to garner heel heat. However, unlike my hatred for Tully Blanchard that I still hold to this day, I now appeciate and embrace Corny's routine. I need to see more Eaton-Lane matches and more oftheir feuds with the Fantastics, RnR's etc. I have a feeling Loss is going to help me out with that.

Well, I'll just edit that bad boy out of there. Jake ?the Snake? Roberts - I agree with Loss that he is overrated as an interview or a great mind BUT I think he has given me as many memorable moments from my childhood as any other performer. The Great Sasuke - For those of you who have not seen much of Sasuke, I think I'll make another Recommended Viewing thread for Sasuke just as I had done for Kawada. Masahiro Chono - I have never cared for his wrestling but always liked his look. Paul London - I don't know how long he has been wrestling but he has had some great matches for being so young. I know a strong cruiser division in WWE is a pipe-dream but having London at the forefront is not bad at all. I think Tim Cooke could point you into the direction of must-see London matches. Brutus Beefcake - You know, alot o people are criticizing Ed, and rightfully so, but he has provided me with two of my favorite Wrestlemania moments of all-time. 1. As part of the Bulldogs v. Dream Team tag at WM2. Getting dropped right on his arm from a hammerlock and selling like a champ. 2. As part of the Adonis haircut session from WM3. Brutus turning face earlier in the night wasn't really cemented until he ran out and helped Piper. Brian Pillman - I have seen some very good-great Pillman matches but I think he may be overrated because he is dead... the same way Owen is revered now but treated with indifference prior to his death. I def. need to see more WCW Pillman to see if the adulation is truly deserved. Kevin Nash - He may be a lazy slug and a worthless POS but I have always liked hearing Nash talk. I also agree 100% that Scott Hall carried the nWo concept. ?Superstar? Billy Graham - I marked out hard as a kid for Graham... in his bald head, goateed phase. Then he was gone. I had no idea about the steroids or the poor ring work. I just liked the way he looked. Terry Gordy - Man, when I was a kid, I hated the Freebirds but loved the song "Badstreet USA". I missed out on a huge chunk of is WCW run and am only now collecting more of his All-Japan matches.

Y'know I have been entertained by the ads but they fail to do the one thing ads are supposed to... encourage me to buy the actual show.

LOL, no man, until you mentioned it, I didn't realize that was what happened. I actually went through and listed all of the wrestlers in past threads and came up with 10 who haven't been called on yet.

Jake ?the Snake? Roberts The Great Sasuke Masahiro Chono Paul London Brutus Beefcake Brian Pillman Kevin Nash ?Superstar? Billy Graham Terry Gordy

Just as a note, the Observer information was talking about a Batista tag AFTER Mania. In fact, after Backlash, a full month after Mania.

Fair enough but if the move isn't sold right, and it is certainly hardly ever applied right, for whatever reason, it is still a shitty finisher. It's not JBL I am concerned about. I think Cena will be the weak link. Unless they go all out bloody brawl, I don't think the match will be good. Not quite. You can usually look at a card and tell if it will be shitty or not. You can also look at the track record of the last several PPVs and see the mediocrity. They still have some solid matchups they could exploit but chose not to for whatever reason. The rumored Eddy & Jericho vs. Benoit & Rey (or some variation of the 4) match would have been a great start. Eddy vs. JBL. Eddy vs. Benoit or Jericho. Benoit vs. Benjamin. You can go on and on. Please, tell me what matches you think are worth paying $50 for on this card.

I was reading riflewilly's comments and was disturbed by a few things... There are alot of flaws with the PPV so far with or without this match. However, I agree that it is pointless. Agreed, but that is because of the weak match-ups, not because of the participants... which brings me to... This has already been dissected 100 times. HBK is not really great anymore if he ever was... and Angle is not a great technical wrestler. The gaps in his logic are huge. You need to look no further then the way he sets up his finisher. Oh wait, he doesn't. I think this is crazy. That is probably the best match in Mania history and these guys aren't as skilled or as healthy as Bret and Austin were in early-97. God, I hope not It isn't really about preserving classic wrestling. It is about using the ladder logically and to have spots that work within the context of the match. Sadly, most ladder matches don't usually do that... instead you get a spotfest. Also, they aren't always exciting. Witness Edge and Christian's ladder match from 2001 and be bored! The fact that Benoit and Jericho are in THIS match is a huge flaw with the booking. I will have to disagree. On paper, this looks like it could be one of the worst Manias ever. Maybe an Eddie-Rey match could improve it somewhat but how much time would they give them? I have absolutely zero faith in HHH-Batista, Taker-Orton, the women's match, or Cena-JBL to be any good. The ladder match will probably be a mess and is a waste of talent. I am sure that when Angle-HBK is finished, many will procalim it MOTY but I think most will be let down by this match. I think I would regret spending $50 on this card. Maybe if I can catch it for free at a local sports bar but this may be the first Mania I miss watching live since 13. You may want to save your cash until the replay becomes available and see what kind of mess you are getting into first.

With the WM3 main, I didn't include it because I don't have a personal connection with the match. I watched it live and I was still soaking in the Savage-Steamboat match when it happened. also, knowing that Andre and Hogan had fought before and that Andre had already been bodyslammed dims the moment for me.

I watched quite a few of Wrestlemania matches awhile back and wrote my thoughts at the now defunct SNKT. I do have some clear favorites and opinions on matches that you guys mentioned. These aren't necessarily the best matches but ones I would include on my personal Wrestlemania compilation. Wrestlemania I 1. Hogan & Mr. T vs. Orndorff & Piper - I remember when this went down and was taken in by the entire spectacle. Abslutely the most important match in WM history and I say that with a straight face. Wrestlemania II 2. British Bulldogs vs. Beefcake & Valentine - A really great tag match although it was way too short. Valentine works almost the entire match for his team and the Bulldogs traded off getting in their high spots and double teams. This match is interesting because the faces controlled almost the entire match and it was better for it. As a sidenote, WM2 was the first PPV (or whatever the system was) that I ever saw. We can ridicule the three locations and all the crap that filled the show but watching it live... it was mind-blowing. 3. JYD & Santana vs. Funk Bros. - It is always wierd to see Dory in McMahon-land. I was so hurt when JYD lost the match. Wrestlemania III 4. Adrian Adonis vs. Roddy Piper - A great, great angle that made Brutus Beefcake beloved by 70,000 people in that dome and those watching on tv (including me). This goes down as one of my favorite moments of the 80s. 5. Ricky Steamboat vs. Randy Savage - The first match where I thought to myself "This is the greatest match I have ever seen"... when I was 12. Many matches have surpassed it but it still has a special place in my heart. Wrestlemania V 6. The Brainbusters vs. Martel & Santana - A solid tag match with a great angle attached. Useless fact: Until 1996, the Tito Santana Arriba! shirt was the only wrestling shit I ever owned. 7. Hogan vs. Savage - The first of Savage's world-class WM carry-jobs. Savage was masterful in making Hogan look like he could wrestle. Savage would do the same for Warrior & Flair in later shows. I am not saying Flair had to be carried but Savage was clearly the better worker in the WM8 match. Wrestlemania VII 8. The Rockers vs. Barbarian & Haku- I really like this match. A notch below the Bulldogs and the Brainbuster tags mentioned earlier but one I would def. have on my comp. Who knew HBK was such an asshole? 9. Randy Savage vs. Ultimate Warrior - This is all Savage. I think this match is way over-rated. This is one match where Loss and I went round after round disagreeing on the merits of this match. The only reason I include this is because i know if I made myself a WM comp, I would probably send one to Loss and he would be foaming at the mouth to watch this match. Wrestlemania VIII 10. Bret Hart vs. Roddy Piper - I don't remember liking this as much as some people (Rudo) but I can't see me leaving it off a comp either. 11. Randy Savage vs. Ric Flair - Another match where Savage does great things. Watch who is more logical and fills the gaps better. I'll give you a hint... it isn't the guy still employed by Vinnie Mac. Owen Hart vs. Skinner - This is a clas... wait... just kidding. Wrestlemania X 12. Bret Hart vs. Owen Hart - This was my favorite WWF match after the first time I saw it. I also thought it was one of the greatest matches I had seen until I discovered a little something called puro. Now, I can take it or leave it but it is great to see Owen celebrate. Wrestlemania XII 13. Ultimate Warrior vs. Hunter Hearst Helmsley - Whenever you are feeling down after watching too much Raw is Hunter, pop this match in and wash the blues away... until you realize you are watching Warrior. Wrestlemania XIII 14. Bret Hart vs. Steve Austin - Great brawl, great angle, great match. Enough has been said on this one. Wrestlemania XIV 15. Mankind & Funk vs. New Age Outlaws - We all know it is a garbage match but I love Funk and I love Foley. Wrestlemania XV 16. Austin vs. The Rock - I had given up on WCW at this point so I ordered Wrestlemania as a last ditch effort to keep my interest in wrestling alive. I almost gave up on it entirely until this match, and for that I am thankful. Wrestlemania 2000 17. Dudleyz vs. E&C vs. Hardyz - I like this match better than the two TLC matches that followed. Then again, I haven't seen it since it first aired. Wrestlemania X-7 18. Austin vs. The Rock - Great match that Loss covered beautifully in his review of 2001 WWF. Wrestlemania X-9 19. HBK vs. Jericho - The best match on the show. I think I want to see it again to re-evaluate my feelings. 20. Austin vs. Rock - I like this match because Rock finally wins. It was probably on the low-end of matches they have had together but I got little chills when I saw Rock sitting there talking to Austin while Steve was laying on his back. Rock must have told him that they were two bad motherfuckers and Austin replied, "Oh, hell yeah". Wrestlemania XX 21. HHH vs. HBK vs. Benoit- Here only to see Benoit raise the belt in the end. The match was merely ok.

Goddamm Rudo, you're talking to yourself man. Well, I don;t think I will be watching Velocity anymore. I haven't seen this show in years and wasn't impressed this time around. I'll just wait until people can gather up a bunch of decent Velocity matches and make a comp.

Man, I love it when they pipe in the crowd noise. Everyone sits on their hands as my volume goes nuts.

NO SHIT!!! I set up a game/computer room where I have my tv, video games, vcr, dvd player, computer, music collection, dvd collection and vhs tapes in the same place. I am quite overwhelmed right now. BTW, when did Spike become Grizzly Adams?

Bret Hart- I have always been a fan of Bret's work. In the Flair controversy, I am firmly behind Bret since Flair is full of shit. Flair's comments in his bio were full of shit and shameless HHH/HBK ass-kissing. I can only hope that he gets a better DVD comp than the fucking Screwed DVD that has been rumored. I also look forward to his biography. Shane Douglas- I have never seen a good Shane Douglas singles match. A shit tlaker who couldn't back it up in the ring. I have zero respect for this guy. My favorite story is how the Radicals ditched him and left him in WCW when they made the jump. It couldn't have happened to a nicer guy. Toshiaki Kawada- The best wrestler of the 1990s who happened to be one half of the greatest tag-team I have ever seen. Demolition- I grew up on the Road Warriors. When I saw these guys for the first time I knew they were a rip off. They had some good matches and I like their theme music. I guess that is the nicest thing I could say about them. Diamond Dallas Page- It was mentioned earlier that DDPs planning of matches was a fault but it was probably the reason he had some good-great matches. For the boys in the back, I can see why that is a weakness. For those of us watching the matches, it was a good thing. More shitty wrestlers would do well to pre-plan their matches. Hell, Warrior and Hogan practiced their WM match for weeks and made it watchable. Imagine if they had gone in their and called it in the ring. It would probably be called the worst match in WM history. Al Snow- Al has charisma but I never thought he was anything special in the ring. Scott Hall- I always thought Scott Hall was what made the nWo work. Yuji Nagata- What I have seen has not impressed me. I may have to watch more matches to get a better idea. Psychosis- I loved his series with Rey in ECW. Then I watched his stuff with Rey in AAA and it blew me away. Steve Austin - There has been so much said about Austin so I'll just chime in on the HTQ-Some Guy debate. I have to go with HTQ on this one. Before the injury, Austin was a really good wrestler who could already brawl if need be. The injury really forced him to stick with the brawling and also ushered in the dreaded WWF style that we all despise so much now. If Austin doesn't get injured at SS97, it is possible 98 and 99 WWF would have been much better in the main event.

Today will be the first time I have ever been able to watch a wrestling program while being able to discuss it on the computer at the same time.

I agree with Cam. Randy Savage brought real cred to the title and made it a feature unto itself. It was Savage, not Warrior, who made the IC title a stepping stone to the world title.

Um... HHH is not one of the best wrestlers the business has ever seen.