elliott

I like watching Liger out of his element against non traditional juniors and would like to watch more. I loooooove the Hashimoto match. I think it was a brilliant performance from both wrestlers figuring out how to craft a logical and exciting match when the winner/loser would have been known ahead of time. The Aoyagi match is one of my favorites. I remember some good stuff teaming with Benoit against the Steiners but its been at least 20 years since I've watched that. What's are some more Liger vs Heayvweights or shooty types or just non-traditional juniors to watch?

In 2016 a lot of people reserved their #100 spot for personal favorites that maybe didn't necessarily deserve to make the list. I was wondering if people plan on doing that this time around and if so, Whom are you thinking about for the #100 spot? For example in 2016 I voted Mad Dog Vachon #100. I sorta thing he actually deserves to be on the list this time or a least stronger consideration than just #100 in the personal favorite spot. So I've thought a little about who I might save that last space for and have a few people in mind. Who are you all thinking about for that last spot?

Another thing worth mentioning about Bossman is he was a good performer really quickly into his career. The Starrcade 86 match against Ron Garvin is from his rookie year and is a heck of a rookie year performance. The point about him being able to play big & small is a good one. Bossman is really underrated as an all around performer

I hate to do worse, because I don't see it as a worse case, I see it as a better case. I think the RnRs are the GOAT team and the Rockers would be in my top 10. So this is a case of two all time great amazing teams that are very similar for copy cat reasons and I think one happens to be a little better. I think Morton is the best performer of anyone on the two teams. His selling was more sympathetic. His athletic bursts are quicker and sharper. His punches are awesome which allows for one or two quick punches working as believable hope spots that can be cut off. He's also a crazy athlete so he can do a flashy hope spot as well. Offensively, between the tope, rana & moonsault, Morton would bust out high end offense on par with anything the Rockers were doing. Morton's movements are so naturalistic that even when he goes over the top bumping & selling, its still believable. I think his body movements and timing of his selling, for the example the way he snaps his head back when he gets punched or the way he stumbles and flops to the ground are so realistic and natural. His body control & hand eye coordination or whatever allows for him to do this is so extraordinary its not something you can teach. Its a natural athletic gift he was given and was able to harness to become a generational talent. I think MOrton had the best overall understanding of wrestling psychology of any of them. Ricky understood how to control a crowd and how to work a match highlighting his strengths and his opponents strengths as well as anybody and came to define a style of wrestling. There's a reason its called playing Ricky Morton and not playing Tommy Rogers or Shawn Michaels or Jim Brunzell. Its no surprise that Morton could go from being the best tag worker in the world to having some of the best matches of Ric Flair's career the next night while it takes other elite tag workers years to figure out how to become great singles performers. Gibson I think is one of the most underrated performers of his era because he was working alongside a generational talent. He might not be quite as good as Shawn & Marty physically but his understanding of psychology more than makes up for it. You could have replaced Marty or Shawn with Robert Gibson and not lost much. You couldn't swap Ricky Morton out of the RnR's. Morton is a level above all of them. Anything you could point to as Shawn or Marty doing well, you could point to Ricky doing it even better with more ring experience and a better understanding of psychology & how to build a match. As for the matches/feuds. I don't think the Rockers have anything that compares to the Russians match. The RnRs debut match in JCP they are put in a showcase match that runs the length of a 60min long TV show. They had the reputation already to walk into the promotion and work a 30+ minute long superb tag match against a good but not great team. They put together this magnificent big vs little well paced match with a double face in peril section that lets you see both Ricky & Robert work face in peril sections, show engaging apron work & both get their chance at a hot tag. Matt has talked about the Rockers' best stuff basically giving themselves over to the Rose & Somers team. The RnR's best match is a 30+ minute showcase of everything they can do against a game opponent. Nobody has ever called the Russians an all time great team. They're definitely underrated/appreciated, but to have a match that quality with them in that setting is overdelivering in a major way in a major spot. I know the Rockers had some some 60 minute matches on house shows, but theres a difference between that and having a classic with a new opponent in a high pressure situation. Robert even works the long FIP section instead of Ricky and puts on the performance of a lifetime. I think the RnRs vs Andersons & Rockers vs Rose & Somers feuds are about a wash. Two all time babyface teams against two great heel teams. Pretty much perfect stuff in 80s territory wrestling. I think the July 86 worldwide match & Blood in the Sand are top 10 US tag matches ever. Maybe top 5. The Starrcade Cage match I think is better than the ROckers/Rose/Somers cage matches. The Starrcade cage match is basically just another classically worked traditional southern tag match only with a cage involved. I think one of those Rockers ones is a mess and the other one was great. I never felt like the Rockers vs Brainbusters had that kick your teeth in MOTYC they were capable of having together. Everything felt in that very good range. By comparison if you asked me what is the perfect southern tag match, I'd point to RnR's vs Andersons 7/86 or WrestleWar 1990. The Rockers vs Brainbusters matches were very good some borderline great as I recall but nothing that would be genre defining. To be fair its been a while since I've rewatched those Brainbusters matches. I know Boss has found the RnRs vs Midnights disappointing overall but I think their WrestleWar 1990 match is a classic. I think it was Tim Cooke who described it once as a greatest hits album. And that's perfect. That match is everything they perfected doing against each other over a 7 year stretch executed to absolute perfection. I think Blood in the Sand is better but I've never seen a classically worked southern style tag match from the Rockers that is as good as that WrestleWar match. I'd have to dig to figure out dates, but other than that one I think the best RnRs vs Midnights matches came from house shows in the 80s not TV or PPV so it may be harder to figure out the best one. I also love the Scaffold match so theres that. The Rockers definitely don't have anything that cool on their resume.' After Rose & Somers and the Brainbusters, who would be the next best Rockers opponent? Rock & Rolls still have several options including Manny & Rude. Which is another example of the RnR's having a lonnnnnng awesome match against a team not known for having lonnnnnnng awesome matches. One of the great things about the Rockers is they were so talented they could have a quality match against anybody. And the RnR's were like that to. But sometimes the RnRs would have to go out and put on these 30 minute long matches against a team like the Russians or Manny Fernandez & Rick Rude. And those are good teams, but they are 25minute long MOTYC type teams until they meet up with the ROck n Rolls. And there are examples of the Rockers having an awesome match with a team less talented than the Manny & Rude or less experienced than the Russians (I'm looking at you Powers of Pain match) but that match isn't 30 minutes. Rockers are better at filling time successfully in long matches and are their equal at worst when it comes to shorter matches. I think what it really comes down to is that the RnRs are a great team that can carry the physical aspect of a match but they also sort of came to define the mental aspect of US tag team wrestling as we know it. You could certainly say that about the style they and the Rockers were working. They are quick, smooth, flashy, exciting wrestlers. But eventually quicker, smoother, flashier, more exciting wrestlers would start showing up and they did. There are lots of copycat teams that have similar traits to the RnRs but they were (to steal Matt's term) often tools for the other team to use. What can you do against smaller, athletic big bumping & selling opponents. The RnRs were never a tool because they had such great psychology. They managed to control the matches even when they were bumping & selling. The Rockers ripped off much of what they did well and were amazing at doing so. This is a Michael Jordan Kobe Bryant situation. The Rockers just couldn't quite get to the level of the RnR's. Its sort of like because they patterned themselves & their style so closely after Ricky Morton, you could say that Ricky Morton taught the Rockers everything they know but Ricky Morton didn't teach them everything Ricky Morton knows. Thats where that extra 5% comes in that makes the RnR's the GOAT tag team and the Rockers like the 8th best team or something like that.

Working on a proper response here. Just got caught up with family stuff before I could finish writing it. I might not have it up till much later tonight or tomorrow but I'm working on it. Itll be more about why one is better than why one is worse because I think they're both awesome.

Over in the Shawn Michaels thread, @Boss Rock said: Rather than clutter up the Shawn thread, I figured I could promote the RnR's in the Ricky Morton thread. Rock & Rolls vs Russians is better than any Rockers match. Its a cut above every US mens tag including the Rose & SOmers matches. Its the 6/9/95 of US Wrestling. The RnR's vs Andersons feud is a nice comparison to ROckers vs Rose & Somers. I'm not sure which I'd pick but they're similar in quality. The RnRs vs Andersons cage match is definitely better than the Rockers vs Rose/Somers cage matches. RnRs vs Andersons smokes Rockers vs BrainBusters 7 ways to sunday. The RnRs vs Midnights match from WrestleWar I like more than any rockers match other than Blood in the Sand. What's the Rockers 4th best rivalry? I bet its not as great as RnRs vs Heavenly Bodies or Ragin' & Ravishin'.

Oh cool! Thank you! I gotta check out that M-Pro match! I predict they hit each other really hard

I had to jet out early unexpectedly but you can be sure that Ishikawa is the gift that keeps on giving. His earliest awesome match is from July 1992 against Kazuo Takahashi. He had an awesome match as recently as 2020 against his career rival Daisuke Ikeda. I think yall just saw the one Ikeda match. They had their first great match in 1996. Most recently in 2020. Its like the Lawler vs Dundee of Japan at this point where they just keep having great matches together. They have epic singles matches and then their tag matches against each other are reliably awesome. Other than the all time great Ikeda feud, you saw his ability to work the mat like a champ, sell on a world class level. He's got crazy longevity at this point and the peak and the variety. He's an awesome mat work but can also thrive in violent spectacles. He's kind of a Fujiwara or Satanico type where the more you watch and the closer you pay attention the more you come to realize that he's an all timer. He's more understated and reliant on details than overt over the top stuff. But when he does over the top its awesome too. He's kinda like if William Regal was more serious and had the resume of great matches we were always hoping for.

I agree with Matt. I love the Rockers but not as much as those other teams.

You would remember the Matsunaga match if you saw it! Its outrageous

I'm not sure I would have put it together until typing them out, but Aja's best feuds are all really different from each other. vs Nakano is a battle of monsters on the surface but its also an established monster vs the newer younger monster. Aja grows up proving herself against Bull, becomes her peer and eventually claims her spot. vs Toyota is a classic bigger heel vs smaller babyface matchup vs Kansai is two big time heavyweights in their prime throwing bombs at each other to prove who is the real Ace of the women's landscape vs Meiko is a classic established veteran trying to fend off the hot shot up & comer. I have my preference, but I think any of them are viable options and show Aja working a different role or style. I think this is pretty impressive.

I know Grimmas hasn't gotten there yet so they may not be ready to answer this. But I was wondering. What do people think is Aja's best career rivalry? She's got some great candidates: vs Bull Nakano vs Dynamite Kansai vs Manami Toyota vs Meiko Satomura

The RnR match was from Great American Bash 1990. The Pillman match I wanna say was WCW Pro.

Oooh Doom rules! I have these Doom match recommendations. It's not a Misawa & Kobashi peak or anything, but a great run with quality matches & character work. They had a real presence. They were a good match up for smaller teams like the Rock & Rolls or Pillman & Zenk. So they had more than just the killer hoss battles. The post-Doom WCW singles run is like a 3 month stretch agaisnt Ron Simmons so I don't really worry about that too much vs Eddie Gilbert & Tommy Rich Clash 9 11/15/89 vs Road Warriors 2/23/90 vs Steiners 2/6/90, 5/19/90, 6/13/90 vs Pillman & Zenk 6/16/90 vs Rock & Roll Express 7/7/90 vs Ric Flair & Arn Anderson 10/27/90 vs Barry Windham & Arn Anderson 12/16/90 vs Sting & Lex Luger 1/30/91 The Mid-South stuff is where its at though and the bulk of his candidacy is gonna come from there and whatever new Houston footage there is. Definitely spend your time watching Reed against Murdoch, JYD, Blackwell, Flair, Buzz Sawyer, Dibiase, Slater, etc.

I would really encourage folks check out that Aja Kong & Bull Nakano vs Marine Wolves 10/89 match. Aja in the 80s was always a shock because she was so wildly different from the Aja Kong we're all familiar with. Its late 89, but its the 80s nonetheless and the earliest awesome Aja performance I've seen. Plus its just a straight up awesome match and Bull Nakano is spitting mist which she never shouldve stopped doing. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dVFVVbsPmMo

Butch Reed was someone who didn't make my 2016 list and I regretted it the moment I hit send on my ballot. I meant to vote for him but he slipped through the cracks. Now he's one of those people who is on the bubble simply by virtue of me considering more people this time around. He's still awesome and he'll contend for a spot but he's just below the level of someone who I have written in stone. I could easily be swayed with more footage. What's come out recently? I fucking love some Butch Reed. The Mid-South run is amazing and everything you could want out of a top 100 candidate. We see Butch in a number of different settings either as a face or heel or working classic long title matches or violent brawls. He's one of the premier power wrestlers of his era. Check the 2/3 Falls St.Louis match against Crusher Blackwell for an awesome match with some incredible power wrestler vs super fat guy spots. The Doom run is fucking awesome too and a fantastic sort of supplement to his Mid-South run. The WWF run was disappointing based on what I've seen and especially by reputation. But thats hardly unique to Butch for that era WWE and the Doom run really more than makes up for it. The more I think about it the more I feel like I need to make some space for Butch Reed.

I've always been a big fan of Matt Borne and he is someone I want to watch more of this time around and think about. He would have benefited from a good career comp and he deserved one too. He worked in a lot of different places and did a lot of different things. The Doink run is fucking awesome. Great in ring work mixed with incredible character work. Its the sort of high end all around work that you can really build a top 100 candidacy on. He'd good in Mid-South and I REALLY like his Portland work. No surprise but he has an awesome feud with Buddy Rose in 81-82. The have a lumberjack match that is particularly spectacular but some other really great stuff as well. So I'd recommend anything against Rose. There's also a really awesome double juice brawl against Rip Oliver I liked a ton as well. Those violent brawls in Portland combined with the Doink run make him an interesting versatility candidate as well. He's someone I want to poke around and look at because he worked in a ton of different places over the years. Has a really good shot at making my list.

OJ, I don't disagree with any of this. THis is another thing that partially belongs in a different thread and should have been vocalized more before the project even began. Since the last project I've seen a number of people say that they didn't participate but enjoyed reading the discussions and have found the various wrestler threads useful resources. I know I've gone back and re-read various threads at certain points over the last 5 years. If you're unfamiliar with a wrestler, these threads can theoretically be great ways to learn about wrestlers. I sort of alluded to this above when I talked about Tommy Rogers. If I click on the Tommy Rogers thread, I would expect to primarily see a discussion about his work with the Fantastics and not his 2000s indy work. If I like the Fantastics stuff that'll lead me to the indy work. You should be able to click on any thread and learn about why someone is a candidate. What is their best run. What kind of candidate are they. Are they known for brawls are they known for technical matches? Are they a peak candidate or a longevity candidate? What should you prioritize if you're going to watch them. And yes when it comes down to it, what are the flaws. Until recently, this thread had minimal commentary. 2 posts from 2016. Then Grimmas' one bumping it. And then all of this. I'm a big Joshi fan. I didn't revisit anything in 2016 but in the ensuing 5 years I've rewatched a ton of stuff and watched a lot of stuff new to me as well. Going into the project I wanted to continue to watch Joshi, but also spend time promoting various candidates that I considered top tier wrestlers. I wasn't an enormous fan of Lioness in the 80s compared to her peers but I think what she shows makes her a viable candidate for the list. Its the most important run of her career and the best work she ever did. But she's not Hokuto, Nakano, Jaguar, Dump, Devil etc etc, so Lioness wasn't a priority for me. I'd get around to talking about her eventually, but we've got 5 years and I'd rather prioritize putting over those people I really love and think are top shelf wrestlers. So I didn't feel the urgency to respond to Grimmas and start a real discussion on Lioness. Its only a month in. I figured everyone would still be talking about the people they actually liked. Had Grimmas not asked Jet what they meant by worst legendary wrestler ever and had I not emphasized the Crush Gals run as the key part of her candidacy, someone who doesn't know much about Joshi reading this thread might come to the conclusion that Lioness' JD & Arison work is what was important to her candidacy. Since as OJ alluded to, Jet is the only person watching JD & ARISON and they don't like Lioness, surely there's some other reason she's nominated. People should asses that and go from there. I understand the argument is "this project is supposed to poke holes at people and assess them critically" and thats true. But lines like "The Takada of women's wrestling" and "worst legendary wrestler ever" with no context unless pushed isn't poking holes or critically assessing. This is why I felt it was important to emphasize for anyone coming into this thread 1, 3, 5, 8 years from now: the reason Lioness would be considered for a top 100 list is really born out of her 80s work first and foremost. She was part of a legendary tag team with Chigusa Nagayo that participated in wild out of control brawls and clean workrate classics. There have always been complaints about her selling and tendency to eat her opponents alive, but she has a decent amount of all time great matches and the Crush Gals were such a great team she merits consideration. Your mileage may vary on her singles matches but the 1985 match against Yokota is legendary. Her series against Chigusa produced some classic matches, especially the 1987 match. There's a great match against Yukari Ohmori too that I feel was more due to Ohmori than Lioness, but it was still a great Lioness performance. Lioness & Chigusa worked a really interesting style in the context of their time. It included a ton of stiff striking, shoot style mat work and big suplexes and bombs worked at a frenetic pace. They are also probably the most over tag team in the history of wrestling so they are always working in front of insanely hot crowds invested in everything they did. They could have skated by with less effort, but at their peak of fame they consistently worked as hard as any wrestlers in the world. Chigusa was the star of the team, but those chants for Lioness are every bit as loud. Her veteran work is less famous and explored. There's a famous match from 1995 against Yumiko Hotta that is super stiff and had a huge reputation at one time. Her even later work in smaller promotions like JD, ARISON, and GAEA is less watched, explored and discussed and saw Lioness turned away from her shooty sprinty style and became more of an ECW style garbage worker with tedious set ups to spots, poor and selling structure and disappointing work in general. If you're going to consider Lioness a top 100 candidate, you are likely to do so based on the strength of her peak work in the 80s. Watch that and go from there. But watch Jaguar Yokota instead.

Thank you for the recommendations! I'll start with these!

I remember being a big fan like everybody else back in the early 2000s because of his wacky submissions and sweet mask. But I don't have anywhere close to a handle on him outside of whats in this thread. If anybody could do a primer with recommendations, I'd appreciate it!

Has much new Bob Orton Jr been discovered that might help his case? Always been a fan. The sort of guy I'd be inclined to vote for if there was more stuff.

This is a fair argument but if people are going to go this route I'd hope there is at least a modicum of consistency and people spend time watching and give equal weight to Bobby Eaton's career from 1993-2012 as they do his 80s prime for example. I'm not holding my breath that this will happen. There are plenty of people who have different phases of their career with more weight being given to more famous phases or primes. This is hardly unique to Lioness and I don't know why she should be held to a different standard. And like I said above, I don't even think Lioness is one of the best people from her company in her prime. I just think for the sake of her thread and anyone clicking on it, the time that made her an actual candidate deserves being highlighted instead of ignored. If you're going to dismiss Lioness as a candidate, do it based on not liking the AJW women stuff not the JD stuff literally no one has ever promoted. As for matches Crush Gals vs Devil Masami & Jaguar 6/28/84 Crush Gals vs Jumbo Hori & Yukari Ohmori 8/25/84 Crush Gals vs Lola Gonzalez & La Tarantula 10/6/84 Crush Gals vs Dump Matsumoto & Rossy Moreno 1/5/85 Crush Gals vs Jumping Bomb Angels 1/6/85 Crush Gals vs Dump Matumoto & Crane Yu 4/2/85 Lioness Asuka vs Chigusa Nagayo 4/7/85 Crush Gals vs Jumbo Hori & Yukari ohmori 4/25/85 Crush Gals vs Dump Matsumoto & Bull Nakano 5/25/85 Crush Gals vs Lola Gonzales & Rosa Maria 5/25/85 Lioness Asuka vs Jaguar Yokota 8/22/85 Crush Gals vs Dump Matsumoto & Bull Nakano 10/10/85 Lioness Asuka & Devil Masami vs Jumping Bomb Angels 2/15/86 Crush Gals vs Jumping Bomb Angles 3/20/86 Lioness Asuka vs Chigusa Nagayo 2/26/87 Lioness Asuka vs Yukari Ohmori 4/15/87 Lioness Asuka & Yukari Ohmori & Mika Suzuki vs Dump Matsumoto & Condor Saito & Judy Martin 4/27/87 Lioness Asuka vs Chigusa Nagayo 6/13/87 Crush Gals vs Jumping Bomb Angels 9/14/87 Crush Gals vs Marine Wolves 4/27/89

Flair was a bad choice because of the age and he's just a bad choice in general because he's Flair Age isn't the important factor. Take that out of it. Lots of wrestlers are awesome at one part of their career and good, average, disappointing and outright bad at other points. Some people can have a run that is so good that it makes them a candidate for the list based on that run alone. Take Sayama as an example. I'm not a fan of Sayama as Tiger Mask but in UWF 1.0 as Super Tiger I absolutely love what he's doing and he's just churning out matches that I love. The Super Tiger run alone makes him a candidate regardless of anything else that happened as Tiger Mask. I feel the same way about the Crush Gals run. Its so good it gets Lioness in contention and probably makes the list for that alone. That she turned into a garbage match wrestler sucks and it certainly is one of the things that prevents her from being a top tier candidate. But I'm not arguing for her as a top ten wrestler or anything like that. I'm saying she is a candidate who shouldn't be dismissed outright and especially shouldn't be dismissed outright based on the years that literally no one would argue are her best years. This is specifically why I'm trying to emphasize watching her 80s Crush Gals peak. There are people who aren't familiar with the Joshi candidates but this time around are wanting to make a good faith effort to watch them. There hasn't been much discussion about Lioness. 2016 the JOshi wrestlers were done a disservice and its still early in this projectIf someone who isn't familiar with Joshi clicks on Lioness' name and sees Jetlag dismissing her outright as terrible based on her JD and Arison work while ignoring the Crush Gals run they might be under the impression that the JD & Arison work is what people point to when they point to Lioness the great worker. It isn't. It wasn't. It never was. Watch the Crush Gals & 80s stuff. If people like that, then watch more and eventually that'll lead you to the JD & Arison stuff. Maybe you'll like it or maybe you'll hate it. I think that's the route that folks should take. Don't just start with the unseen work nobody has ever watched and dismiss her. Watch the stuff thats actually good first.

Man I love some Kazunari Murakami. Just an amazing sneering prick. One of my all time favorite characters. I didn't vote for him in 2016 and I fucking blew it. Murakami is awesome. He's always a better mat-worker than I remember because when I think of him I just think of the glare.

Quoting myself here. Always a special moment. I wanted to explain more about what i mean here. Maybe it deserves its own thread. But I kinda think each candidate deserves their own explainer. I'm sure we'd all agree that not all candidates are equal and not all candidacy are the same. Some candidates are primarily candidates because of their peak. Others their longevity. Some because they were able to succeed all over the globe. Others because they figured out how to succeed in front of the same group of people week after week. Some are candidates because theyre awesome in TV matches reliably. Others may not have been reliable week in week out but always delivered on the big stage. Some people are candidates because they played one role better than anyone else. Other people are candidates because they succeeded in a variety of roles. Other's have a laundry list of great matches. While others made the most of the opportunities given and may not have the great match resume necessarily. Some candidates have everything you could ask for. These are the greatest of the greats. But most candidates are going to be more definable and more limited. Take Tommy Rogers. I wouldn't look at Tommy Rogers and say "I can't find a great singles main event. His mid 90s-2000s work when he was in his 30s was pretty disappointing. Not a candidate." That's a complete misrepresentation of who Rogers' is as a wrestler and as a top 100 candidate. You start with the Fantastics stuff because thats the bulk of the case. Unless someone comes in and is like "His mid 90s-2000s is awesome unhearlded hidden gem work. Tommy Rogers was great for 20 years!" Then you watch it and evaluate it on those terms. Yes we should try and get a whole picture of every single candidate. That should definitely be the goal. Its completely unfeasible, but sure. That's the goal. But I think its more important to understand what sort of candidate someone actually is. I don't think anyone would make the argument that Lioness is a longevity based candidate. If shes going to make your list, she going to make it on the strength of the Crush Gals run primarily. She's Tommy Rogers with a frustrating (to me) singles run. I don't see her as a top tier candidate or even a top tier Joshi wrestler. But shes a more than deserving candidate.