S.L.L.

They shouldn't, but there are plenty of examples throughout history of mistreated workers rallying against corrupt management and forcing change. The fact that wrestlers can't be bothered to unionize or anything along those lines means that they shoulder some of the blame for being mistreated. But that doesn't mean it's OK to mistreat them in the first place. I'd think Vince McMahon's scumminess is better documented than that of any indy promoter, but otherwise you make a good point. I was coming at this issue from the perspective of an all-seeing, all-knowing internet wrestling fan, which may not accurately represent everyone who gets into the business, so yeah.

It's the internet. Whoever wins, they (think they) lose.

It's no excuse, of course, but I would acknowledge that wrestling is weirdly unique in that promoters' complete lack of human empathy is known to pretty much everyone who gets involved in the business. So if you're a wrestler, and something happens to you that would be unthinkable/unforgivable in any other legal profession, it's not like you didn't know that sort of thing could easily happen to you when you signed on. But that's what I was trying to get at before - there's a lot of blame to go around. Management is to blame for their insane 19th century robber baron business practices, but the wrestlers are to blame for idiotically going along with it, as well.

Out of respect for our brave, hard working men and women of the armed forces, let me publicly apologize for ridiculing the shell-shocked war vet. If I had known, I would've let him be.

That seems to be the obvious surface explanation, but it's very rare that this kind of deep sociopathy is explained by a single issue. The obsession with being a "real man", the lack of self-awareness, the inability to empathize with the perceived "weak" while repeatedly empathizing with David Fincher movie villains, the slavish and unquestioning devotion to those in positions of power...these all paint a much richer picture of madness that cannot be chalked up solely to being an ex-fat guy who's disgusted with those who have his former physical imperfections.

Yeah, remember all those awesome promo duels from the Eddie/Lesnar feud in '04 where Brock would try to slam Eddie for his former drug use, and Eddie would respond by admitting to fucking up big time in the past, but how he's learned from his experiences and become a better man as a result? Would it have been so hard to do that with the Jeff/Punk feud? Would it really have been that much of a challenge to write up a promo where Jeff follows his usual "we all make mistakes" spiel with "but some of us learn from those mistakes"? Even if he didn't really mean it? I guess you don't want to demonize a top babyface by painting him as someone who actually learns from his mistakes when you know he's going to prove that he didn't. But yeah, it's pretty fucked up.

Firstly and most importantly, it is the problem of the wrestler. They have in fact chosen a career with few ups and years of unpleasant downs. Like I chose to be a Marine, having the forethought that I could very well die, and not always die from combat or from enemies, it wouldn’t be fair to blame the military for my death if I was to die in combat – I voluntarily joined. Men who choose to be ironworkers and work a few hundred feet off the ground, it is their choice to risk their lives on a daily basis – they volunteered. OK...but being in the Marines means you're part of a military organization. It's an organiztion whose specific purpose is to protect against serious threats to the country. Life-or-death risk is something that obviously comes with the territory, and there's no way to remove it. Even with that in mind, military tactics can allow operations to be carried out more effectively without taking any greater of a loss than necessary. So even in a place where death is an inescapable part of job, competent leadership tries to take some precautions to prevent needless deaths when they can. For ironworkers, death isn't the name of the game, but it can be a harsh reality for obvious reasons. That's why there are safety measures - safety belts, scaffolding, nets, not to mention they don't work during dangerous weather conditions. It's not 100% safe, and I don't know that it ever can be. But it's as safe as it reasonably can get. Professional wrestling is a genre of fiction built around a fictitious combat sport. In theory, it's not even supposed to hurt, nevermind kill. Obviously that's not the reality of the situation. It does hurt, and like ironworking, I don't suppose wrestling could ever be made 100% safe. Unlike ironworking - or even the military - wrestling doesn't even seem to be trying. So drawing comparisons to these other professions really shows even more just how much the business is to blame. Of course I have resentment towards the institutions that harbor these men and women to perform for me and indirectly allow them to shorten their lives. It is the same kind of resentment that mothers and fathers, brothers and sisters, friends and family have towards the military when their Marine/soldier/air men/sailor dies in combat or in training. They are looking for a source to blame other than the actual person to be blamed, the person who chose to defend their country. Sure, that sounds fucked up especially coming from a Marine, but that’s life and reality. That's actually not fucked up at all...unless the marine or ironworker in question died because of the incompetence of their superiors. In professional wrestling, people are dying unnecessarily because of their superiors' reckless disregard for human life. They still carry blame, because they should know by the time they get in the biz that their superiors are raging sociopaths. That doesn't mean it's OK to be a raging sociopath, or that being the raging sociopath who gives out the order to do something stupid completely excuses you from blame when some other idiot does the stupid thing you ordered him to do. Fujinami has always been old school. So you never saw any of his junior work, then? When did Baba and Jumbo have New Japan runs? Anyway, I don't think anyone disagrees that the style changed. We disagree that the style changed due to "desensitization". Nobody was fretting over people getting "desensitized" to Baba and Inoki's styles. Promoters did not get down on their hands and knees and thank their lucky stars when Choshu hit it big because crowds had not been "desensitized" to him yet. Choshu was a charismatic guy who worked a fast-paced style and got over. It wasn't a company mandate that he work that style to combat the rising tide of "desensitization" amongst audiences. It was just who he was and what he did. He was a hit, so others followed suit. That's really all there was to it. Not a contradiction, because was never arguing that wrestling was hitting it big in Japan because of head drops and high risks or any other fad in the first place. I was arguing that stuff was incidental to being a compelling figure who the fans cared about. That figure doesn't seem to exist right now, it's just guys copying the bells and whistles that you claim were the real cause for the previous business boom in Japan and taking them to their logical extreme. It's not working. Something else is missing. I never say the WWE, so that could have confused you. I should have placed a comma after the 80s as well, another possible confusion. I wasn’t talking about wrestling in the 80s, I was saying if wrestlers (today) wrestled as they did in the 80s the fans would chant boring. Therefore, your dribbling insults afterward are in effect, canceled. I don't doubt that if you took a wrestler straight out of the 80's and put them in the 21st century, they would look out of place because of stylistic changes. But assuming we have two guys working holds and selling like in the 80's...again, it depends on who you're talking about. Overness really isn't determined by who has the fanciest moves. It's been demonstrated many, many times. And…what’s your point? I didn’t say the opposite of that, now did I? Simply pointing out: independent promotions like the leading US promotion gives the rabid fans that attend their shows the ultra violence they want, mainly stiffer than normal exchanges and dangerous looking suplexes. That is an original point of mine – the fans crave something and they get it.However, I believe what you’re alluding to is that because a promotion such as ROH features the strong style and head drops and hasn’t become a worldwide corporation like the WWF so it isn’t truly relevant that all fans want those similar qualities in their promotion. That is exactly my point, yes. There is more to drawing money in wrestling than being on the bleeding edge of style. One person compared to how many others that look like male models?Yokozuna got over, Rikishi got over. How many others? Would you statistically be able to say that there is a good/great ratio between the built bodies and the flabby bodies? I’m venturing to say no – probably a 95/5 ratio, maybe lower for the fat bodies. So yeah. Most fat wrestlers don't get over. Most built wrestlers don't get over. Most wrestlers period don't get over. 95/5 ratio is probably right for both fat guys and jacked guys. In fact, it's probably a bit better for fat guys just because wrestling promoters typically push for unbelievably jacked physiques to the point that you can no longer really market that as being something special anymore. If you're fat, you're unique, and if you're unique, you have a better shot at getting over. Oh, and as long as you're asking...Andre the Giant, Abdullah the Butcher, Bam Bam Bigelow, Ray Traylor in his various forms, Jerry Blackwell, Earthquake, Kamala, King Kong Bundy, Big Daddy V, and One Man Gang, if we're restricting it to guys with mainstream American overness in the last 25 years. I’ll give you that one, but add there are exceptions to everything, but primarily, if you look through the history of the WWF, muscular men are the biggest stars and have held that title belt the most. Bruno wasn’t chiseled like HHH or Hogan, but he that aura like Thesz, the “don’t mess me with me motherfucker”. Realistically, your company ace is probably going to be a guy who at least looks to be in good shape. I guess it's to be expected when you're playing the role of "best athlete in this sport". But benath that very top spot, most fans are more forgiving than you. First, there was the notion I am homosexual. Now I am a fan of incest.What is your quote advertising? That because I dislike fat people that I am gay and enjoy some good ole fashioned family loving. Oh, Christ...my posts are long and rambling enough. Do I have to include footnotes, now? The rest of my post was themed around you backing up your obsessive, creepy hatred of fatties by quoting one of the most vile, unsympathetic characters in film history. That was an incredibly stupid move that paints you as the kind of person who would decapitate a woman and then hand her gift-wrapped head to her husband, and your continuing lack of self-awareness about it doesn't help your case. It doesn't mean you're wrong when you share an opinion with a bad guy. Hell, even Hitler got some things right. But you'd have to be a complete social retard to back up a claim by quoting der Fuhrer. So I spent the rest of my post making fun of you by pretending to play devil's advocate, making my real point, and then making an insane counterpoint backed up by some more of the most vile, unsympathetic characters in film history. To wit.... "I don't blame myself. You see, Mr. Gittes, most people never have to face the fact that at the right time and the right place, they're capable of ANYTHING." -Noah Cross (John Huston), Chinatown "Baby wants to fuck! Baby wants to fuck Blue Velvet!" -Frank Booth (Dennis Hopper), Blue Velvet "I...I have rights. Why can't you people just leave me alone?" -The Scorpio Killer (Andrew Robinson), Dirty Harry "Today is history. Today will be remembered. Years from now the young will ask with wonder about this day. Today is history and you are part of it. Six hundred years ago when elsewhere they were footing the blame for the Black Death, Casimir the Great - so called - told the Jews they could come to Krakow. They came. They trundled their belongings into the city. They settled. They took hold. They prospered in business, science, education, the arts. With nothing they came and with nothing they flourished. For six centuries there has been a Jewish Krakow. By this evening those six centuries will be a rumor. They never happened. Today is history." -Amon Goeth (Ralph Fiennes), Schindler's List "Look at you. You used to be so cocky. You were going to go out and conquer the world. You once called me 'a warped, frustrated, old man!' What are you but a warped, frustrated young man? A miserable little clerk crawling in here on your hands and knees and begging for help. No securities, no stocks, no bonds. Nothin' but a miserable little $500 equity in a life insurance policy....You're worth more dead than alive!" -Mr. Potter (Lionel Barrymore), It's a Wonderful Life "Don't talk like one of them. You're not! Even if you'd like to be. To them, you're just a freak, like me! They need you right now, but when they don't, they'll cast you out, like a leper! You see, their morals, their code, it's a bad joke. Dropped at the first sign of trouble. They're only as good as the world allows them to be. I'll show you. When the chips are down, these...these civilized people, they'll eat each other. See, I'm not a monster. I'm just ahead of the curve."* -The Joker (Heath Ledger), The Dark Knight "We didn't need dialogue. We had faces!" -Norma Desmond (Gloria Swanson), Sunset Boulevard "Nothing stops. Nothing...or you will do the hardest time there is. No more protection from the guards. I'll pull you out of that one-bunk Hilton and cast you down with the Sodomites. You'll think you've been fucked by a train! And the library? Gone...sealed off, brick-by-brick. We'll have us a little book barbecue in the yard. They'll see the flames for miles. We'll dance around it like wild Injuns! You understand me? Catching my drift?...Or am I being obtuse?" -Warden Norton (Bob Gunton), The Shawshank Redemption Better? Sure, the match did happen, I’ve seen it, probably millions of people have as well – does it make it realistic though, no. Unless Umaga was just a machine there is no way in hell he worked that style of match for that long with that body without using unnatural methods to gain the stamina and endurance it requires to work a match of that length. When I saw that match, I saw a man (Umaga) doing something virtually impossible for a man of his size, which drew me to my conclusion that he must have been using methods that are unnatural. The same could be said of his opponent. The same could be said of every well-built wrestler. Bodybuilding muscles are not made for lengthy athletic contests. And if you're even slightly aware of the backstage goings on of wrestling promotions, then you can apply this criticism to most every wrestler working today. And really, it's not like there's a whole lot else in wrestling that actually is realistic, anyway. Most people can apply suspension of disbelief here. Quit projecting your lardophobia on the rest of the world. That is a tough question. Back in the golden age, a man was a man. Now it seems as though men are a dying breed. What exactly are you suggesting with that feminine approach? I'm not sure how to respond to this other than by saying this is one of the funniest things I have read in quite some time. Thank you, sir. You have put a smile on my face. Who knows? Pretty much everyone other than you, it would seem. You're being obtuse. Not so ignorant as to miss a quote from the biggest money-making film of the last decade, no. Yes. I am also being willfully retarded and willfully the god damn Batman. If the chips mean society, then yes we would destroy each other – state of nature. "What were you hoping to prove? That, deep down, everyone's as ugly as you? You're ALONE!" What is the point in placing blame on the WWF? To assign blame where it belongs. Duh. Ummmm....what the fuck does individuality and self-esteem have to do with any of this? This might be an even more telling choice of quotes from movie bad guys than the Seven quote was. OK...but what happens if you manage to go all the way to the top, and it turns out everyone is to blame? Do you just go with the lowest common denominator and excuse the grotesque, glaring fuck-ups of everyone above him? Or do you agree with me that that is stupid? We all are/have at one time or another. You got that right. Hey, you actually found one! *For the record, The Joker did not burst into histerical laughter after this line. I included it partly as artistic liscence and partly to help get the joke across to smkelly, who seems a little slow, and who I figured might need help getting the reference. Apparently I was right.

If I remember correctly, they also refused to leave the ring for some time afterwords out of protest.

Wow, that post was so crazy, it actually brought Spunk out of Internet wrestling message board retirement just to point out how crazy it was. (Hi, Spunk!) I'll be fair and say that this isn't a far-fetched thesis. There's a lot of blame to go around for wrestling's troubles, and the wrestlers who casually accept their lot definitely deserve some blame. That doesn't absolve WWE higher-ups and the biz in general of guilt, but "Umaga knew what he was getting into, he brought in on himself for being a wrestler" is not actually far-fetched. As a wrestling fan, though, I'm not sure how one manages not to feel resentment towards the profession that systematically kills off the people who entertain you. You can blame the wrestlers for idiotically going along with it, sure. But not sure how you feel no resentment over the situation being what it is in the first place. None of my other hobbies ever make me question whether or not I'm partly responsible for an epidemic of deaths. Why wrestling? Why does this have to be so fucked up? That is not wrestling's fault, nor the WWF's. Japan has seen a similar increase in head drops and death defying spots because of the audience becoming desensitized of the normal collar and elbow tie ups and working an arm for forty-five minutes. When the fuck was this? I've seen Rikidozan matches - the beginning of puroresu - and it was never about collar-and-elbow tie-ups and 45 minutes of armwork. Never. Not even in fucking Rikidozan matches. Rikidozan matches were about Lou Thesz being a dick and Rikidozan not tolerating that shit and chopping him in the throat. They don't look like Dragon Gate, but they're quite a bit more modern than "collar and elbow tie ups and working an arm for forty-five minutes". And that was the beginning of puroresu. When you talk about "increase in head drops and death defying spots because of the audience becoming desensitized"...when is this? At the very, very earliest, the late-70's rise of Fujinami might qualify. Have you seen 60's and 70's puro? Even putting aside that 50's puro doesn't match that description, 60's and 70's stuff certainly doesn't match it any better. I mean, Baba and Inoki both worked holds more than Rikidozan did, but they certainly weren't standing around in armbars for 45 minutes. Fujinami didn't come about due to desensitization. Fuck, Fujinami, Inoki, and a broken-down Baba all coexisted rather nicely throughout the late-70's and 80's. Jumbo, too. Choshu and Tiger Mask came in, and they all coexisted. Hansen, Hogan, Andre, Brody, and Dynamite all came through, and they all coexisted. Sure, styles would change over time. They always do. But it hardly seems like a result of desensitization as much as of the natural evolution of a given style. Sometimes, this evolution has taken ill-advised paths, but it doesn't mean they're forced to take them because fans were becoming "desensitized". Fuck, puro nowadays probably has as much headdrops and death-defying spots as it's ever had, and the industry is in the shitter. So obviously, this isn't what the fans are demanding. One of the last guys in puro to be a really consistent draw was old, broken down Misawa throwing a bunch of elbows. He puts Marufuji and KENTA in the main event and no one gives a shit. Desensitization, my ass. What 80's wrestling are we talking about here? We're certainly not talking about 80's WWF are we? Yeah, nobody wants a bland technical champ like Hulk Hogan nowadays. Who are these bland 80's technicians that you're talking about. Ric Flair, who claimed technical mastery before getting the shit kicked out of him and hitting a guy in the balls to escape with the belt? Jerry Lawler, who had better technical skills than he was given credit for, but usually was just happy to punch the shit out people? Was Dusty Rhodes a bland technician? Was The Junk Yard Dog? Or the Von Erichs? Dundee? Steamboat? Savage? WHO ARE THESE PEOPLE? ROH is a niche product that's failed to make in-roads to the mainstream despite their emphasis on "the strong style". They haven't had to do anything except accept that their long-hidden secret - which really hadn't even been a secret since the days of Frank Gotch at the earliest - was out, and that they were no less popular in spite of it. It's certainly true that wrestling struggles to this day to completely let go of kayfabe, resulting in this bizarre semi-kayfabe that's been one of the more destructive forces in wrestling IMO. But nobody's forcing them to do that. Nobody's forcing them to crank up the realism of something that everyone will know is fake no matter what they do. They just do it, because it's wrestling, and it's fucked up like that. So you take steps to minimize the damage. Injury is inevitable, but that doesn't mean you throw up your hands and say "go ahead and kill yourselves because we can't make wrestling 100% safe". OK....except it's been demonstrated many, many, many, many times throughout wrestling history that the WWE "One Body Type to Rule Them All" isn't the only one that gets over. Like...you know...Umaga's body. So, not exactly a relevant comparison. Bix kinda nailed this one for me. I wonder if you think Vince McMahon's idea to be the storyline father of Stephanie's baby was a good one. After all, as Noah Cross said in Chinatown, "most people never have to face the fact that at the right time and the right place, they're capable of anything". This one's been nicely covered, too. But then again, as Frank Booth said, "Baby wants to fuck! Baby wants to fuck Blue Velvet!" Which is true, but again raises the question of whether or not those risks really have to be there. On the other hand, the big decision makers in wrestling have rights, just like the Scorpio Killer in Dirty Harry. Why can't we just leave them alone? I would think it's extremely realistic if they could - you know - actually do it. I mean, it's one thing when somebody in wrestling does something that seems unrealistic even though it would be possible in real life, like certain types of no-selling. They're pretending to do something that doesn't seem real, and it takes you out of the moment, even if not everyone who gets hit in the knee spends the next half-hour clutching at their leg, unable to walk in real life. When Umaga works a 20+ minute match with John Cena, it's pretty hard to argue that it's an unrealistic feat when he is actually having a 20+ minute match with John Cena. Reality and realism and not the same thing, and fiction usually prefers realism to reality, but this is like looking at an object in real life and claiming it's Photoshopped. On the other hand, this reality may be unpalatable, and thus better off ignored and erased from history. Perhaps someday, will be able to do that, and the harsh, terrifying reality of fat guys working 20+ minute matches, in the words of Amon Goeth, "will be a rumor. They never happened. Today is history." OK, but there are steps the business can take to remedy this, and they don't. Umaga fucked up, no doubt, but how does that absolve the business from blame? Is responsible behavior solely the purview of the working man? I suppose there's only so much one can really expect from management. I mean, who can really blame Mr. Potter for stealing from George to drive the Savings & Loan out of business? Sure, it'd be terrible if George did something like that. He's just "a miserable little clerk crawling in here on your hands and knees and begging for help. No securities, no stocks, no bonds. Nothin' but a miserable little $500 equity in a life insurance policy". Hell, that guy was worth more dead than alive! But we can't hold Potter to standards. That'd be crazy! Actually, most people just want charismatic figures who can tell a good story. That's how it looks to me, anyway. But I'm probably wrong. Society wants reckless endangerment and the most jacked-up, sexy bodies science can give us. You see, our morals, our code, it's a bad joke. Dropped at the first sign of a flabby, shirtless body or a single armbar. We're only as good as the world allows us to be. But you've shown us. When the chips are down, these...these civilized people, they'll eat each other. You're not a monster. You're just ahead of the curve! AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!! I'm a pretty apolitical dude, but this seems like a somewhat misguided comment. Actually, Dave, they usually have to either win, or throw the fight in a convincing manner in order to swindle gamblers. Entertaining the crowd is an ideal side effect, but it's at best, goal #3. Is it really just me? Is everyone else in the world - including all non-wrestling fans - looking at everything through pro wrestling eyes? No, real competitive athletes don't need wins and championships....they need faces! As are we all, I'm sure. And that grief will surely lead many of us to project our character flaws, our failings, our hatreds, and even our sexual leanings onto others. But the important thing is that we assign no blame whatsoever to the wrestling business. Or am I being obtuse?

When you think about it, Umaga was fired under pretty much the same circumstances that Kurt Angle was fired under. When Angle was fired, a lot of folks on the net - myself included - took it as evidence that Kurt wasn't long for this world. Granted, Kurt's still alive, and Umaga really wasn't the (only way to really describe it) flaming drug addict that Angle is/was, but you'd think his firing should've raised some of the same red flags that Kurt's did.

Well, it's pro wrestling. I don't expect people to be honest, but consistency is nice. Although what does it tell you about how dense Chapman is that he's become the go-to wrestling historian for World Wrestling Entertainment and he doesn't start to question whether or not he's been doing something wrong? When you're essentially told that you are telling people the version of wrestling history that Vince McMahon wants people to believe by his own organization, I'd think maybe you'd start going over your notes, trying to find where you fucked up. Not that Vince has a whole lot invested in Gotch or Caddock, but that still seems like it should set off some warning signals.

Quoth the Meltzer....

Wait, this is a retcon of the traditional narrative, isn't it? Old narrative was that Toots Mondt basically invented wrestling as we know it in 1915 with the Gold Dust Trio because real wrestling was too boring and Mondt's "Slam Bang Western Style Wrestling" would make more money. This is kind of a surprise. I may be getting my wrestling historians mixed up...is Chapman the one who refuses to believe that Frank Gotch ever worked a match? I'm trying to figure out if this turn of events is more or less surprising coming from him. That is, assuming it was coming from him and not handed down from the mountain by WWE, which would be even more baffling if only because it would mean they would actually care enough to change the narrative.

I dunno. A lot of people speculated (probably correctly) that he was juicing during his last WWE run just so that his body wouldn't start looking any worse than it already did, but never really thought of him as having a GH gut then, so I'd guess it's either not a GH gut, or he changed up what he was taking in a way that would cause a GH gut that he didn't seem to have in the WWE. Worth noting that one of the big reasons wrestlers turn to steroids/HGH is because they are expected to maintain incredible physiques, but do not have nearly the time necessary to do so naturally due to their hectic schedule, with this being primarily true in the WWE. Flair's schedule has been far more lax since retirement, and even now that he's out of retirement, the Hulkamania tour seems like it would be far less grueling than working WWE full time would be. That's not to say he's not on something - it's professional wrestling, no one is above suspicion - but it is possible for a 60 year old man to have that body with the right combo of genetics and dedication without drugs. So you can draw your own conclusions about that, whatever they may be.

Having not read the article in question, is this "most beloved by fellow athletes" or "most beloved by fans", or somewhere in between? I'm not sure he should be #2 in either case, but it's important context.

Yeah, there are a lot of respects in which I would not want to be like Flair when I am 60, but his body really isn't one of them.

Lots of things heels say about faces are demeaning. The problem is that the company apparently either believes it, or wants Mickie to believe that they believe it so it can be used as ammunition against her in real life. And that's kinda fucked up. Think about the company we're discussing. These are the people that, upon finding out that a loyal hard-working employee had a traumatic cancer scare and was having painful colon surgery, decided the best gesture to make was a 5 minute skit mocking the surgery so they could take numerous personal shots at him. I'm way past getting too upset about something like the Mickie James skit. Yeah, basically this. The Mickie James stuff is just another straw on the camel's back at this point. Still.... And as far as the Dave/Wade as bookers thing goes, even if either of them really knew what the hell what they were talking about at this point, and even though I agree with most of what John wrote above, I would suggest that if there's one thing I've learned from playing "I Wanna Be the Guy", it's that knowing how to do something and actually doing it are not always the same thing.

Lots of things heels say about faces are demeaning. The problem is that the company apparently either believes it, or wants Mickie to believe that they believe it so it can be used as ammunition against her in real life. And that's kinda fucked up.

Yeah, and we would love to see Roger Ebert direct movies and music critics produce albums.... Being a reviewer does not mean they think they could do it better. True, but many - if not most - critics will put forward ideas as to how something in what they're reviewing could be done better. Roger Ebert will point out flaws in a movie and sometimes make remarks of how it could have been done better. I'm sure he knows from writing "Beyond the Valley of the Dolls" that he is not the guy to actually implement those ideas as a filmmaker. But as a critic, he knows why he does and does not like certain things in movies, and he can point out how something that didn't work could maybe be converted into something that did by someone other than himself. Ebert is a pretty good critic. Generally speaking, I don't mind seeing his ideas about what makes films work implemented by actual filmmakers. I can't speak for Wahoo's Leg. I don't doubt that at least some of the Meltzer/Keller followers think they could book a wrestling promotion. But generally speaking, if bookers implemented the Meltzer and/or Keller aesthetic in their wrestling promotions, it probably would not turn out quite so well as filmmakers implementing Ebert's aesthetic in their films.

I am not exactly wishing for Graham's death, but I am kinda looking forward to the day that "Backlund killed Graham" becomes the next "Luger killed Liz". EDIT: Also...."Linda McMahon is a scam and is made out of spam"? Are people still talking about this guy as one of the great micworkers of all time?

Alas, poor Lorenzo....

I think the argument against those would be that they were lies, not that they were negative. True journalistic integrity means reporting the truth. Sometimes the truth is very negative. Irv is not a guy I want to spend a lot of energy defending, but surely you can see the problem with “Additionally, your arguments are absurd, because they are terribly negative.”

Well at least we know she's not marrying him for his money.

My Disc 2 Rankings: 1. Andre the Giant vs. Stan Hansen (9/23/81) 2. Antonio Inoki vs. Stan Hansen (4/23/81) 3. Antonio Inoki & Tatsumi Fujinami vs. Andre the Giant & Rene Goulet (12/10/81) 4. Tatsumi Fujinami vs. Steve Keirn (11/6/80) 5. Tiger Mask vs. El Canek (12/8/81) 6. Tiger Mask vs. Gran Hamada (11/6/81) 7. Chavo Guerrero vs. Kengo Kimura (11/3/80) 8. Bob Backlund vs. Stan Hansen (9/30/80) 9. Tatsumi Fujinami vs. Isamu Teranishi (10/8/81) 10. Tiger Mask & Kengo Kimura vs. Negro Navarro & El Signo (10/30/81) 11. Tiger Mask vs. Dynamite Kid (4/23/81) 12. George Takano vs. Stan Lane (7/24/81) 13. Tatsumi Fujinami vs. Ron Starr (9/30/80) 14. Chavo Guerrero vs. Kengo Kimura (9/30/80) 15. Tiger Mask & Tatsumi Fujinami vs. Pete Roberts & El Solitario (9/4/81) I think Hansen was the worker of this. Loved the Inoki feud, but loved getting to see him have great matches with other opponents, too. Sad to see him go, but I know there's still a ton of great stuff to come. Andre rules so hard, he is honestly not far behind Stan. Tiger Mask is overrated as Hell, but I am shocked that I do not hate him more than I do, and he has had some fun performances. I think the myth that's really going to get shot full of holes here is the idea that Dynamite Kid was some kind of superworker who was able to reign in Sayama and get great matches from him that other opponents couldn't. I liked their match on this disc more than most, surprisingly, but Hamada was clearly Dyno's superior in that regard, and while I wouldn't classify what Canek did as "reigning Sayama in", I do think his style coaxed a better performance out of Sayama than what we would normally see from him. I also was totally blown away by the Missionarios tag on first viewing, but it didn't hold up quite as well on reflection, which I guess is the story of Sayama's entire run as Tiger Mask. Still dug it a bunch, though.

Yeah, that's more like it. That would make a bit more sense to me. Also, another thing that I haven't really given due consideration to is available space - i.e. would they rather include two or three clipped up matches or one full Thesz match if they only had so much space to work with. I can see, for various reasons, why they would choose the former. I'm not Karl Stern. I really don't mind. World Title = WCW/NWA/Pre-NWA World Title has been canon for 7 years now. It's been cemented for a while, and I don't have a problem with it. I just didn't get the layout of matches on a DVD is all.