ohtani's jacket

You're struttin' into town like you're slingin' a gun Just a small town dude with a big city attitude Honey are ya lookin' for some trouble tonight Well all right

The '76 Inoki/Andre is another good one. It's memorable for the Andre blade job if nothing else. I'm interested in seeing whether Marty agrees that the first one you see is the best or whether I just get bored easily.

Are you honestly trying to say that if a wrestler dies in the ring then the other people involved are murderers and scum? Or if someone kills themselves they're scum?

Uh oh, what did I start? I was really just using Undertaker's quote from Royal Rumble '94 to talk about workers who've dropped off the list not Undertaker himself.

I watched two from '77 and one from '79. I'm watching the one from '76 now.

My image of Parv! You know, a funny thing happened to me on a wrestling forum the other day.

Be not proud of what you have done, PWO.

What's with this myth that Maeda wasn't very good at shoot style? I wonder how many of the cool picks in the top 100 will drop straight away. I'm surprised that Backlund did so well as it seemed the height of his critical reappraisal was long gone and actually imagined he'd do better if the poll had been held five years ago.

The only I liked was from '78. I haven't seen the one from '76 yet.

That is what I plan on calling the list when Flair is named number 1. If Flair is No.1 you can blame the Cult of the Old.

Fair warning this is a shit post, but reading this it occurred to me that I could easily see myself agreeing with the wrestling equivalent of a comment like this, but as a comment about music or film or what have you, seems unfair and dismissive. It feels like a lot of people here and elsewhere (including myself) experience wrestling in a way that is a lot more tied to consensus relative to other art forms. I care way more about music than I do about wrestling, and an equivalent 'Greatest Musicians Ever' based heavily on technical proficiency not only sounds horrific but also doesn't come close to touching on why music is great, or how we relate to it. Why I'm on board with that type of thing in wrestling terms doesn't make any sense to me, and I wonder if the fundamental difference is the form itself or the culture of criticism around it. This was interesting. I enjoy taking part in album polls, but I don't think I'd ever consider taking part in a Greatest Musician Ever poll. I might be able to casually give you my top 5 in a certain style ala High Fidelity, but I'm more interested in the output than I am comparing one musician to another. Of course there are musicians I like and musicians I don't, and I suppose there are musicians that I think are better or worse than other. But a big difference is that I don't belong to a music site that is the equivalent of PWO and don't get into debates about musicians with other people. If I like a musician I check out more of their music or music with a similar sound and if I don't like someone's music I don't listen to their stuff again. It's completely different from the way I consume pro-wrestling. Wrestling is kind of the opposite. I'm less interested in ranking the output than I am the workers. I don't mind taking part in projects where people rank matches from a promotion or an era or genre, but I'm not really interested in a Greatest Match Ever list. In a way I think it's easier to rank wrestlers than musicians because they're all basically doing the same thing. They may work in different styles or play different roles but the basic skill set is the same. There are far fewer wrestlers than there are musicians and there is far less variety. And unlike music where if I don't like a band I won't listen to them again, it's difficult to completely avoid workers whom you don't like. But I think the main reason is that I don't belong to any music forums.

Aww no, little Stevie Grey! You may now proceed with your list of the Top 100 Most Overrated Wrestlers of All-Time ;p

I must have lucked Into the one good Andre/Inoki match, or maybe it's a case of diminishing returns, because the rest of them kind of suck.

Yeah, when are those next ten names dropping.

I actually like the classics. Whenever I get into something new I hit up the classics first because who doesn't want to experience the best of something? But for me the classics are a springboard for immersing myself in a style and from there I find my own way. I don't think Parv is all that different. He embraces some of the classics and tosses others aside. He just has an incredibly strong attachment to the workers and matches he thinks are best.

I think you're ignoring how those consensus picks came to be. Parties already touched on films that were panned at first; think about the Cahiers du Cinema and how it completely revolutionised film criticism with auteur theory. Their ideas were completely radical at the time but enough people believed in them and a new consensus was formed. All it really takes is for one person to come up with an idea and if enough people believe in it then the consensus will change. We've seen clear examples of that during the present reveal. We've also seen examples of new ideas that haven't gained quite enough momentum to bring about change. And there's always trends to consider. Styles that fall out of favour. Older thinking that's rejected. We're not just looking for the Shakespeare of wrestling (i.e. the No 1 pick) we're looking to fill in the top 10, the top 20, the top 30 and beyond. The wider you spread that net the more diversity you're going to find. Once you get outside the consensus picks that's where the action is really happening. If someone comes along and says Magnum is better than Kobashi then first of all that's an interesting idea and much better than reading the same tired old bullshit about Kobashi, but morever it'll probably lead to Magnum gaining traction rather leapfrogging over Kobashi. It would gain my attention anyway, but Kobashi would still receive the same amount of boring votes. To make a film analogy, Kobashi is a boring ass pick like John Ford. It's just a safe, boring pick. Did I mention the word boring anymore? The Magnum idea, now that's like thinking Nicholas Ray is a master. Now you're talking. If one or two like-minded people think it's a cool idea then it's not going to go anywhere, but if it takes off a bit then it will really stir the pot. Then John Ford fans will come along with their lists of **** and above John Ford films and try to shove it down our throats as evidence, but we know what we like and it's Nick Ray. The undervalued, the underrated, the under-appreciated, the overlooked. Magnum may be a far fetched example, but if it wasn't for that sort of mentality we'd still be arguing about all sorts of outdated ideas. To me the stance you're taking doesn't factor in progress or change. I appreciate that you have this mentality because you open up worlds for the rest of us. Phil Schneider is the same way, always looking for the next thing to be excited about. I'm too conservative to let go of my Ford/Kobashi entirely, but amen to the explorers. Kobashi was the guy Parv mentioned. It could have been any of the top picks really. I like Kobashi though I think Parv goes overboard in his praise for him.

It has also been put in question as it as happening by the Positif review, and it's pretty much recognized now that they were *wrong* on several issues. Plus the auteur theory has done its share of damage to the mentality of producers/filmmakers too. Andre Bazin also critiqued it at the time and he was their mentor as you know. One of his criticisms was that a true auteurist would automatically find a second-rate film by an auteur to be superior to a first-rate film by a non-auteur, which he thought to be nonsense. I think that was in retaliation to Eric Rhomer "demolishing" John Houston, a director whom Bazin admired. To tie this back to the GWE, since many of us apply an auteurist approach to wrestling, I wonder how many of us are guilty of Bazin's criticism. Is that second-rate Dibiase match truly better than a first-rate Shawn Michaels match?

Man, Schmidt vs. Thesz bouts are awesome. The receipts Lou gives him are out of this world. I was never into Thesz but it's starting to come together for me now. He looks a bit like Jack Kirby. He's the Godfather.

I think you're ignoring how those consensus picks came to be. Parties already touched on films that were panned at first; think about the Cahiers du Cinema and how it completely revolutionised film criticism with auteur theory. Their ideas were completely radical at the time but enough people believed in them and a new consensus was formed. All it really takes is for one person to come up with an idea and if enough people believe in it then the consensus will change. We've seen clear examples of that during the present reveal. We've also seen examples of new ideas that haven't gained quite enough momentum to bring about change. And there's always trends to consider. Styles that fall out of favour. Older thinking that's rejected. We're not just looking for the Shakespeare of wrestling (i.e. the No 1 pick) we're looking to fill in the top 10, the top 20, the top 30 and beyond. The wider you spread that net the more diversity you're going to find. Once you get outside the consensus picks that's where the action is really happening. If someone comes along and says Magnum is better than Kobashi then first of all that's an interesting idea and much better than reading the same tired old bullshit about Kobashi, but morever it'll probably lead to Magnum gaining traction rather leapfrogging over Kobashi. It would gain my attention anyway, but Kobashi would still receive the same amount of boring votes. To make a film analogy, Kobashi is a boring ass pick like John Ford. It's just a safe, boring pick. Did I mention the word boring anymore? The Magnum idea, now that's like thinking Nicholas Ray is a master. Now you're talking. If one or two like-minded people think it's a cool idea then it's not going to go anywhere, but if it takes off a bit then it will really stir the pot. Then John Ford fans will come along with their lists of **** and above John Ford films and try to shove it down our throats as evidence, but we know what we like and it's Nick Ray. The undervalued, the underrated, the under-appreciated, the overlooked. Magnum may be a far fetched example, but if it wasn't for that sort of mentality we'd still be arguing about all sorts of outdated ideas. To me the stance you're taking doesn't factor in progress or change.

If somebody thinks Magnum TA is better than Kobashi they should just go for it. Argue the shit out of that motherfucker and never look back. This is what happens in the down periods between reveals.

Anybody got some Norton they can recommend? Just saw a Hashimoto match that was solid.

I like a lot of Hogan's 80s work, but he's not top 100. It's like that Flair promo after Wrestle War: "Terry, you're not in the top 100." On the other hand, if he goes crazily high I can picture having a lot of fun with it.

I don't think anyone's ever got upset over Scott Norton, though it may have happened at some point, somewhere. I actually want to go watch a Scott Norton match now.

In case of Yoshida, she basically left Zenjo where she was doing the traditional go-go-go house style and when she debuted in ARSION she already had created her own style in which she trained the girls like Fukawa into. Didn't took her long at all. That was almost ten years into her career. Chigusa did it in half that time. Plus the metamorphosis occurred during the height of her popularity, which is even more remarkable. it's a dumb analogy but it's like a pop star going all experimental at the peak of their stardom.

I don't see how this differs from other list roll-outs. You'd get the same reactions to a Rolling Stone list, the AFI, Pitchfork, ESPN, you name it. Probably worse. I mean this is pretty tame compared to the arguments over the DVDVR 500 back in the day. Having said that, while people were thrilled by the ballot turnout, a blind man could have seen this coming.