ohtani's jacket

Aww no, little Stevie Grey! You may now proceed with your list of the Top 100 Most Overrated Wrestlers of All-Time ;p

I must have lucked Into the one good Andre/Inoki match, or maybe it's a case of diminishing returns, because the rest of them kind of suck.

Yeah, when are those next ten names dropping.

I actually like the classics. Whenever I get into something new I hit up the classics first because who doesn't want to experience the best of something? But for me the classics are a springboard for immersing myself in a style and from there I find my own way. I don't think Parv is all that different. He embraces some of the classics and tosses others aside. He just has an incredibly strong attachment to the workers and matches he thinks are best.

I think you're ignoring how those consensus picks came to be. Parties already touched on films that were panned at first; think about the Cahiers du Cinema and how it completely revolutionised film criticism with auteur theory. Their ideas were completely radical at the time but enough people believed in them and a new consensus was formed. All it really takes is for one person to come up with an idea and if enough people believe in it then the consensus will change. We've seen clear examples of that during the present reveal. We've also seen examples of new ideas that haven't gained quite enough momentum to bring about change. And there's always trends to consider. Styles that fall out of favour. Older thinking that's rejected. We're not just looking for the Shakespeare of wrestling (i.e. the No 1 pick) we're looking to fill in the top 10, the top 20, the top 30 and beyond. The wider you spread that net the more diversity you're going to find. Once you get outside the consensus picks that's where the action is really happening. If someone comes along and says Magnum is better than Kobashi then first of all that's an interesting idea and much better than reading the same tired old bullshit about Kobashi, but morever it'll probably lead to Magnum gaining traction rather leapfrogging over Kobashi. It would gain my attention anyway, but Kobashi would still receive the same amount of boring votes. To make a film analogy, Kobashi is a boring ass pick like John Ford. It's just a safe, boring pick. Did I mention the word boring anymore? The Magnum idea, now that's like thinking Nicholas Ray is a master. Now you're talking. If one or two like-minded people think it's a cool idea then it's not going to go anywhere, but if it takes off a bit then it will really stir the pot. Then John Ford fans will come along with their lists of **** and above John Ford films and try to shove it down our throats as evidence, but we know what we like and it's Nick Ray. The undervalued, the underrated, the under-appreciated, the overlooked. Magnum may be a far fetched example, but if it wasn't for that sort of mentality we'd still be arguing about all sorts of outdated ideas. To me the stance you're taking doesn't factor in progress or change. I appreciate that you have this mentality because you open up worlds for the rest of us. Phil Schneider is the same way, always looking for the next thing to be excited about. I'm too conservative to let go of my Ford/Kobashi entirely, but amen to the explorers. Kobashi was the guy Parv mentioned. It could have been any of the top picks really. I like Kobashi though I think Parv goes overboard in his praise for him.

It has also been put in question as it as happening by the Positif review, and it's pretty much recognized now that they were *wrong* on several issues. Plus the auteur theory has done its share of damage to the mentality of producers/filmmakers too. Andre Bazin also critiqued it at the time and he was their mentor as you know. One of his criticisms was that a true auteurist would automatically find a second-rate film by an auteur to be superior to a first-rate film by a non-auteur, which he thought to be nonsense. I think that was in retaliation to Eric Rhomer "demolishing" John Houston, a director whom Bazin admired. To tie this back to the GWE, since many of us apply an auteurist approach to wrestling, I wonder how many of us are guilty of Bazin's criticism. Is that second-rate Dibiase match truly better than a first-rate Shawn Michaels match?

Man, Schmidt vs. Thesz bouts are awesome. The receipts Lou gives him are out of this world. I was never into Thesz but it's starting to come together for me now. He looks a bit like Jack Kirby. He's the Godfather.

I think you're ignoring how those consensus picks came to be. Parties already touched on films that were panned at first; think about the Cahiers du Cinema and how it completely revolutionised film criticism with auteur theory. Their ideas were completely radical at the time but enough people believed in them and a new consensus was formed. All it really takes is for one person to come up with an idea and if enough people believe in it then the consensus will change. We've seen clear examples of that during the present reveal. We've also seen examples of new ideas that haven't gained quite enough momentum to bring about change. And there's always trends to consider. Styles that fall out of favour. Older thinking that's rejected. We're not just looking for the Shakespeare of wrestling (i.e. the No 1 pick) we're looking to fill in the top 10, the top 20, the top 30 and beyond. The wider you spread that net the more diversity you're going to find. Once you get outside the consensus picks that's where the action is really happening. If someone comes along and says Magnum is better than Kobashi then first of all that's an interesting idea and much better than reading the same tired old bullshit about Kobashi, but morever it'll probably lead to Magnum gaining traction rather leapfrogging over Kobashi. It would gain my attention anyway, but Kobashi would still receive the same amount of boring votes. To make a film analogy, Kobashi is a boring ass pick like John Ford. It's just a safe, boring pick. Did I mention the word boring anymore? The Magnum idea, now that's like thinking Nicholas Ray is a master. Now you're talking. If one or two like-minded people think it's a cool idea then it's not going to go anywhere, but if it takes off a bit then it will really stir the pot. Then John Ford fans will come along with their lists of **** and above John Ford films and try to shove it down our throats as evidence, but we know what we like and it's Nick Ray. The undervalued, the underrated, the under-appreciated, the overlooked. Magnum may be a far fetched example, but if it wasn't for that sort of mentality we'd still be arguing about all sorts of outdated ideas. To me the stance you're taking doesn't factor in progress or change.

If somebody thinks Magnum TA is better than Kobashi they should just go for it. Argue the shit out of that motherfucker and never look back. This is what happens in the down periods between reveals.

Anybody got some Norton they can recommend? Just saw a Hashimoto match that was solid.

I like a lot of Hogan's 80s work, but he's not top 100. It's like that Flair promo after Wrestle War: "Terry, you're not in the top 100." On the other hand, if he goes crazily high I can picture having a lot of fun with it.

I don't think anyone's ever got upset over Scott Norton, though it may have happened at some point, somewhere. I actually want to go watch a Scott Norton match now.

In case of Yoshida, she basically left Zenjo where she was doing the traditional go-go-go house style and when she debuted in ARSION she already had created her own style in which she trained the girls like Fukawa into. Didn't took her long at all. That was almost ten years into her career. Chigusa did it in half that time. Plus the metamorphosis occurred during the height of her popularity, which is even more remarkable. it's a dumb analogy but it's like a pop star going all experimental at the peak of their stardom.

I don't see how this differs from other list roll-outs. You'd get the same reactions to a Rolling Stone list, the AFI, Pitchfork, ESPN, you name it. Probably worse. I mean this is pretty tame compared to the arguments over the DVDVR 500 back in the day. Having said that, while people were thrilled by the ballot turnout, a blind man could have seen this coming.

Jaguar was my number one last time, but I'm pretty much indifferent to where she fell this time. Like the JWP girls she almost got over the hump. I can see the case for Chigusa finishing ahead of her. After Jaguar retired, Chigusa took up the mantle of best woman in the business and was a great worker during that period. I think a lot of people think of the Crush Girls, and the schoolgirls, and the crying, and the stuff with Dump, but the impressive thing about Chigusa was how she morphed from a hyperactive young Joshi worker into a serious shoot-style inspired wrestler in the span of a few short years. Workers like Mariko Yoshida and Meiko Satomura would make the same transition years later but it took them much longer. In Chigusa's case, the spectre of early retirement was forever hanging over her. A rule that to this very day is like Logan's Run. Chigusa's Run was pretty great. I adore her matches with Leilani Kai, enjoyed watching her butt heads with Yukari Omori, instill life lessons in Akira Hokuto and duel with Itsuki Yamazaki. Even he matches with Asuka, which feature some of the most ridiculous selling in Joshi Puroresu history, are undeniably great to me. All Japan came really close to booking a Kandori/Chigusa match in 1989 and that's a match I would have loved to have seen. She packed a lot into a short run and her star shone brightly. I like some of her comeback stuff, but she jobbed left, right and centre until she set up GAEA and ruled the roost there. After a while, beating Chigusa lost its meaning but nobody wants to book a freelancer as stronger than their talent. I saw her live in 2004 and she left a huge impression on me even at that point of her career. All Joshi workers basically make the same appeals to the crowd, but few have the charisma of Chigusa even in her 40s. She was special.

You don't think Hogan, Onita or Foley belong? I don't mind Foley that much but he's about as boring a top 100 pick as imaginabls. Onita I think is grossly overrated and Hogan should have dropped a long time ago. Mind you, I probably wouldn't have voted for two thirds of the top 100 so take it all with a grain of salt.

That's Reslo not World of Sport.

If there were a God it would be Undertaker, Angle, Jericho, Michaels, Muto, Hogan, Rock, Onita and Foley.

Every time someone says they didn't have time I keep thinking: "you had two years."

The only WoS workers who will rank ahead of him are Grey and Breaks so I wouldn't say the pendulum has swung that far. Face vs. face was a staple of WoS and occurred far more regularly than in any other type of wrestling. Walton had that line he'd always use for the face vs. face contests: "a pure wrestling contest for the grapple fans." De facto heel stuff generally happened in the halls, though occasionally it made its way on to TV such as in the Roberts vs. Bridges feud. Most of the time if the face acted like a de facto heel in a face vs. face match it was the first sign of a heel turn. Was Saint better at working face vs. face bouts than other WoS guys? The problem for me is Grey. There isn't a single thing that Saint does well that Grey doesn't do better, and that includes face vs. face matches. I get why people like Saint -- I like a lot of Saint stuff myself -- but Johnny Saint matches are always about Johnny Saint. They're always about his escape holds and the tricks he does in the ring. They're about dressing and undressing holds, the flash of his smile and Walton gushing all over him. If you look at match listings and all the Grey matches we have on tape. and you go through all the names, I guarantee you that for each name that is one of the best matches that worker had on tape. Maybe that's because Grey didn't have as much personality as Saint, but if you line up all the Saint face vs. face bouts on tape and switch Saint for Grey there are very few matches that wouldn't be improved. I've seen some pretty great Saint vs. face matches vs. Grey. Faulkner, Kaye & Gilmour and Brookside, but against Joyce, Martinelli, Jowett, Hassouni, McGrath, and so on, the standard is far below Grey. Maybe it's because he didn't have a huge personality and wasn't overbearing, but he still managed to be Steve Grey from Peckham. I think he was just one of a kind. Maybe Ricky Steamboat to Saint's Flair?

Bigelow's not a bugbear of mine or anything. I just thought he finished super high.

Is Muto still lurking about? How about Maeda?

I'm marveling at the fact that Steve Grey is still out there.

Aww, Kansai couldn't quite make it. At least the JWP girls went kicking and screaming out of the top 100.

Mwahahaha, eat it Takada! Have some sauce to go with it. That was a great run of wrestlers. I wonder if Thesz rolled over his grave being stuck between a woman and Luger. But how did Bam Bam Bigelow get in the mix? Brody and Sabu make sense, but Bigelow going that high?