ohtani's jacket

At the peak of Black Terry Jr footage, I thought he was a top ten luchador all-time on tape. He's been a bit out of sight out of mind of late, but what the great brawlers in lucha history and one of the great character workers. It gets to the point where it sounds like a broken record, but I'd desperately like to have footage of him from his younger days. I can't imagine he was anything less than sensational from the mid 80s through to the early 90s.

Should have been the next guy in the Lizmark/Solar/Atlantis mold, but wasn't. His '88-90 is a great run (maybe the best run of the guys CMLL tried to push as new stars), but he fell off a cliff after that.

His 90s stuff needs to be reevaluated as there was at least one trios I watched recently where I thought he gave a great performance. I really want to see the Casas hair match from '94. I doubt he has enough matches on tape to crack this list unless you go for sheer ability was a performer and then he belongs in the the conversation.

I've loved Franz van Buyten ever since the day you introduced me to him. Voting him onto a list like this may be a bridge too far for him, but I'd rather watch him than a million other guys who've been nominated. Footage is the big issue as you know how infuriating the German footage is.

Unfortunately, I think there's only seven Alan Sarjeant matches on tape. The definitive mindblowing Brit technician sums him up perfectly. He's the Volk Han of British wrestling in other words.

One of the greatest heels in European wrestling history. The recent catch stuff was a revelation. Kind of a hard sell to folks around here, but if you're watching that Chicago archives stuff I don't see why you wouldn't check out Lasartesse.

Yeah, it's Carl.

There's five matches available from the 70s. The rest of his stuff is from Reslo and the 80s. Flat out one of the best workers ever in my opinion, and while I dislike this kind of terminology, he was one of the best workers in the world in the early 80s. His series with Haward was light years ahead of what anybody else was doing in the early 80s. It's as close to shoot style in a 1980 British ring as you will see from any other match-up.

Billy Joyce Pros: * Considered to be one of the greatest heavyweights of the post war era and one of the finest technicians of his era * Often referred to as the best wrestler to come out of Wigan's Snake Pit * One of the last British workers to be considered a "ripper," a shooter who could genuinely hurt people * Six time British Heavyweight Champion from 1958 to 1966 * One time European Heavyweight Champion in 1961 * Dropped both titles to Billy Robinson in '67 and '65 respectively to put him over * Took over most of the training duties at the Snake Pit in the 60s and 70s with Ernie Riley, son of Bill Riley * Had a hand in training Billy Robinson and Karl Gotch, as well as Alan Woods, John Naylor, and Dynamite Kid briefly. Cons: * No footage whatsoever * Often said to be uncharismatic and overshadowed by more flamboyant wrestlers * No clear evidence that he was a draw * Disliked traveling thus didn't raise his profile overseas

There is also the Devil Masami match from the original JWP, which was one of the better Joshi matches of the 80s. But I'm totally against cherry picking her best stuff to get her onto the list. If people are going to vote for her there should be a serious effort made to see whether her JWP and LLPW stuff holds up, and a proper appraisal of her as she got older, just like there is with so many other candidates.

I don't know if all of these will be on YouTube. Some of them will be, but mostly with their air dates not the dates I've used. Steve Grey vs. John Naylor (4/10/75) Steve Grey vs. Ken Joyce (7/31/75) Clive Myers vs. Steve Grey (10/8/75) Clive Myers vs. Steve Grey (11/20/75) Zoltan Boscik vs. Steve Grey (aired 5/8/76) Steve Grey vs. Mick McManus (5/21/77) [Cup Final Day] Clive Myers vs. Steve Grey (12/6/77) Bobby Barnes vs. Steve Grey (7/26/78) Steve Grey vs. Mark Rocco (10/11/78) Johnny Saint vs Steve Grey (1/28/80) Johnny Saint vs. Steve Grey (2/11/81) Steve Grey vs. Jim Breaks (5/12/81) Jon Cortez vs. Steve Grey (7/27/81) Steve Grey vs. Jackie Turpin (8/11/82) Jim Breaks vs. Steve Grey (4/7/83) Steve Grey vs. Steve Speed (1/25/84) Steve Grey vs. Clive Myers (3/5/84) Steve Grey vs. Keith Haward (2/5/85) Steve Grey vs. Clive Myers (3/20/85)

The first ever Steve Grey match I saw was the Clive Myers match that Bix uploaded many years ago. At the time it was one of the coolest things I had ever seen and with the help of Real Man's Man (God bless you, wherever you may be), I was able to eventually see more WoS along with the torrents that made their way onto YouTube. Then I hooked up with my man in Birmingham and watched practically every Steve Grey match ever. I'm now going to gush so much about Steve Grey he'll blush if he reads this... Steve Grey is for my money the greatest babyface in the history of wrestling. There's never been a more likeable face to me. He comes across as the nicest guy ever. When Walton gives that antidote about Grey teaching carpentry to pensioners and disabled people in his free time, how could you not take him home to meet your mother? And he's a world class wrestler to boot. Nobody has a deeper catalog of good WoS bouts than Steve Grey. I could list off a bunch of names and I guarantee one of their best bouts was against Grey if not their very best. And that's an ever expanding list with workers you've never heard of. He has been single-handedly responsible for changing my opinion of several different wrestlers from a negative to a positive, had classics in the 70s and 80s, and was one of the best guys even when Joint was going down the toilet. I think he's a serious candidate for the best British worker ever and will be in my top 20.

Yeah, but if he's underwhelming to start with Matt might never get to the fun stuff.

Jumbo & Tenryu and Choshu & Yatsu had fifty million tag matches in a row. You'll confuse the poor boy. I'm telling you Matt, grumpy Jumbo is the Jumbo you will enjoy. Jumbo vs. Misawa is a narrative you'll be able to sink your teeth into. Plus you're all primed up watching so many trios of late.

I never really got the less than a hundred matches thing with Volk. There are plenty of worker who will be voted for that have less than a 100 matches on tape, and plenty of people will vote for people who they've seen less than a 100 matches from. Why should Volk be held to a higher standard because he only worked one match per month? (Which in the end didn't prevent him from breaking down physically.) Does that means US wrestlers should be voted higher than Japanese wrestlers because they have more difficult schedules? Who's to say working once a month isn't more challenging? Wrestling the top guys in each territory vs. a match against Dick Vrij. I'm not seeing an advantage there.

Horst Hoffman Pros: * Big star in Germany during the 60s and early 70s * Successful amateur * Considered a superb wrestler * European Heavyweight Champion from 1971 to 1974 * Won the IBV German Championship heavyweight tournament 10 times between 1960 and 1975 and once as a middleweight in 1958 * Won the IBV European Championship heavyweight tournament 9 times between 1962 and 1975 * Won the Dortmund tournament three times from '66-68 * Won Munich 6 times between 1966 and 1976 * Won upwards of 90 German tournaments in total * Memorable heel run in the AWA teaming with Baron Von Raschke * Had 4 tours of All Japan and 3 tours for IWE Cons: * Extremely limited footage * German tournament victories were all promoted by the same promoter Gustl Kaiser * General lack of understanding of German wrestling history and the significance of each tournament * Not a big star internationally * Often noted for a lack of charisma

All I know is I could spend all day watching Ernie Ladd promos.

That's easy. Start with either the Tenryu feud or the Misawa feud. Watch the famous six mans.

That Rey Escorpion match was awful. If you want Porky spectacle matches from the 00s, his hair matches against Asesino Negro are much better. I agree with Graham. If you're going to vote for Porky then vote for him from the '89-93 period.

Giant Haystacks Pros: * Also a national star of note with mainstream crossover appeal * Generally regarded as a better worker than Daddy * Invited each summer to the German and Austrian tournaments * Won the IBV European Championship heavyweight tournament in Bremen in 1982 * Won the Vienna tournament in 1985 and the Graz tournament in '85, '88 and '89 * British Heavyweight champion in 1978 * Helped draw the '81 Wembley gate after a long feud with Daddy Cons: * A limited worker * Matches boring and repetitive * Weight gain affected work rate

Big Daddy Pros: * Huge national star * Crossed over into the mainstream * Massively over with crowds * Responsible for an upturn in business after mid-70s slump * Drew Joint Promotions' three biggest gates Cons: * Historically bad worker * Wrestled short, sometimes terrible matches * Major matches a huge disappointment work wise * Was a dividing locker room figure * Caused numerous wrestlers to leave Joint Promotions * Wasn't an international draw * The houses he drew were small by overseas standards * Was also on top when business declined

Discussion of the European candidates each year seems to begin and end with Big Daddy, but since some of the posters here have ballots, I thought I would break down the candidates one wrestler at a time. Jim Breaks Pros: * Considered to be one of the all-time greats in both the lightweight and welterweight divisions * Career spanned four decades from the early 50s to the early 90s * Viewed as one of the new style lightweights who changed the way lightweight matches were worked * Was on television almost 150 times * Featured prominently on the first two Wembley Arena shows, four times on Cup Final Day and more than twenty Royal Albert Hall shows * Had a number of great television matches * Frequent title holder Cons * Limited footage * No gate figures or TV ratings * Not as big a star as other names on the ballot * Not a true main eventer

I don't think there is a Combat Toyoda/Ozaki death match.

That footage was already out there in 2006. Baba finished 30th, which is extremely high.

That was against Megumi Kudo, but it is definitely one of the best matches of its kind.