ohtani's jacket

I don't think that's true at all. In fact, I think if people are looking for any interesting take on Flair then tracking his development over the late 70s to early 80s would be an interesting route to go.

Man, there was a lot of stuff on this I didn't agree with. The Missioneros are the best workers on the ballot? Navarro and Texano were like Flair and Tully? I don't know how we can draw that conclusion from the minuscule amount of Missioneros footage on tape and the fact that what we do have isn't that good, and Signo is arguably the best of the three. Their influence on trios matches gets blown out of proportion as well. There were many famous trios before the Missioneros, and while trios matches may not have been the predominant form of match they weren't suddenly born with the Missioneros. The discussion also ignored how short their run was, the troubles replicating it, their less successful Japan stints, the fact that only Texano could get proper work after it was over. The Brazos were draws. Arguably bigger draws overall than the Missioneros as Jose pointed out the other day. They also weren't created because of the Missioneros. They formed around the same time in the late 70s. Villano III has a laundry list of great matches? Is that a laundry list that's been through a cycle and torn up a bit? Not on tape he doesn't.

They still kept her pretty strong from '97-99 since was one of the few who didn't leave in the exodus. She put Ito over in the '97 Grand Prix then won it herself in both '98 and '99. During '97-98, she probably had as many recommended matches as Aja. Chigusa then tapped into something good with Aja in GAEA. AJW could have put the belt back on Toyota in '97, and maybe should have, but were trying something new.

Do you mean after Toyota dropped the belt in 2002 or '96? The degree of difficulty in Toyota continuing to have good matches isn't the same as with Aja, so it wouldn't factor into my consideration of the two, but there's no argument that since the bottom fell out of Joshi that Aja has had the better in ring career. I'm not sure whether you'd call it great. If not for Satomura, I doubt too many people would be paying attention.

The only advantage Grey would have is that he was a better worker, but then probably only you and I and a few other people in our circle believe that. The rest of people out in voter land no doubt believe Saint to be synonymous with the British style. The only other slight advantage Grey might have is that he didn't jump to All-Star so he was on TV consistently throughout the 80s whereas Saint disappears from TV after '82 and his only matches available after that are Screen Sport, German handhelds and All-Star's brief run at sharing the time slot. Aside from that, Grey was always positioned as second to Saint. He was the British Lightweight Champion to Saint's World Lightweight Champion, not as big a star as Saint in the mid-to-late 70s (Saint's heyday), and I'm not sure if he ever traveled abroad (perhaps to places like Pakistan or South Africa.) It was harder for lightweights to travel than the bigger guys. He did get more exposure than Saint in the very late 70s with his lengthy feud with Breaks. They were a heavily promoted part of the undercard for the first Wembley Arena show. But I don't think that improves Grey's overall standing vs Saint.

Otto Wanz Pro: * Successful amateur boxing background * Long wrestling career from the late 60s to 90s * Huge name in his home country * Became promoter of the CWA in the late 80s * Former AWA World Heavyweight Champion * Four time CWA World Heavyweight Champion * Defended the CWA title 32 times for 29 wins and 3 losses * Won the IBV German Championship tournament three times ('78, '81 and '85) and the European Championship twice ('77 and '78) * Won the Hanover tournament in '85 and again from '87-89 * Won Bremen multiple times from 1972 to 1978 as well as Dortmund from '72 to '90 * Multiple time winner in Munich, Graz and Linz * Legitimate strongman supposedly with Guinness record for destroying phone books * Wrestled all over the world. Bigger headliner than anyone else in the category Cons: * Not a good reputation as a worker * Stigma of having "bought" the AWA title * Unfairly (?) stigmatised for booking himself on top * Question of whether drawing data is available for voters * Promotion ultimately failed, or rather stopped promoting wrestling

Sting had more than a couple of good Regal matches. Every time they locked up it was cool. Sting would bust out all these holds you never thought he could do. Not a guy I'd vote for, but there's no way I'd call him a bad worker.

Orndorff was a good worker. Not good enough to get on a list like this, but in both WWF and WCW viewing I've found him to be consistently good.

There's a lot of workers who people continue to like when they grow older and give a free pass to on things like execution and speed. I do this all the time with Charlie Lucero, for example. I'm kind of skeptical about how much these guys adapt. Unless they transform themselves into a completely different worker like Navarro did, I'd argue that most guys are doing what they've always done only at half speed and that people dig it because it's old school. A lot of the problem with Flair is that he looks worse than Keith Richards, which ruins the entire gimmick. Other workers can get old and out of shape and be praised for being a curmudgeon, but Flair was like an aging Sinatra. How could he have adapted and made it work? That's a more interesting question for mine. I mean Bock kept in tremendous physical shape and was still a great looking guy into his 50s. How could Flair have kept up keeping in mind he had been over exposed?

Sounds like a bunch of guesswork.

Wasn't there an Elimination Chamber Match that was one of the greatest matches ever? Seriously though, I thought you were high on the WWE through to Mania? Wouldn't Lesnar/Cena from SummerSlam, I think it was, count on the same level as some of that stuff reaction wise.

First bit of the Cota/Casas feud has surfaced -- http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?/blog/8/entry-430-vintage-negro-casas-of-the-day-8/

I've seen all of the Mexico stuff and a fair bit of the Japanese stuff. He's in the conversation. I loved the Teranishi and Rocco bouts more than most people.

Is it just me or did Matt make it out to be the Return to Oz of the schoolgirl era? For what it's worth, AJW got in hot water over the match in Kansai and lost TV there for a while. Dump's parents also suffered some harassment during this period.

Mexico was loaded with light heavyweight talent in the late 70s and early 80s and Britain had its fair share of talent too. He didn't look better than Ray Mendoza when they fought at El Toreo.

What we ended up with in the standards argument was that neither side agreed and it keeps being brought up every few weeks.

Ultimo Dragon vs. Emilio Charles Jr, UWA World Middleweight Championship, CMLL 4/27/93 People shit on Ultimo a lot these days, but you won't find me badmouthing him. This won't make you forget 90s classics like Dandy vs. Azteca or Blue Panther vs. Atlantis, but it was on the same level as Emilio's matches with Azteca and a step down from his work with Atlantis, which is pretty good for a non-luchador. Had it been a classic it would have been a point in both men's favour, but as much as I love him, Emilio didn't exactly roll out the classics. Besides, great matches were thin on the ground in 1993 CMLL so you take what you can get. What we got here was the definition of a three star title match. Everything they did was good, but none of it was great. Emilio didn't take enough of the match, particularly on the mat, so it felt a bit lightweight at times. He wasn't able to put his imprint on the match through any of his characteristic work, and couldn't hang with Ultimo's Japanese offence, which also made it a bit one-sided. But the real problem was the length. At 15 minutes or less, it didn't have time to develop. On the positive side, Ultimo was again phenomenal between the ropes, and the transitions were smarter than you generally get in lucha matches. I really liked the knee lift Emilio used to lay Ultimo low in the opening fall, and Ultimo was very good offensively even if it wasn't exactly lucha friendly offence or laid out for full dramatic effect. Jerry Estrada vs. Stuka, hair vs. hair, AAA 10/31/94 These guys did a good job of straddling the line between an up tempo AAA style match and a traditional cabelleras match. There was just enough blood, just enough brawling and just enough highspots to keep everyone happy. An example of this would be Jerry Estrada's slingshot somersault senton onto a blood stained Stuka. Estrada got by far the worst of it and ended up landing on the guardrail. He crawled under the flimsy barricade AAA had and the two continued brawling on the floor. Another thing they did well was put over the physical toll the match was taking, so even though they did a lot more dives and arm drag exchanges than you'd usually expect from an apuesta match, they were clearly exerting a bunch of energy and the desire to win was strong. The match wasn't without its flaws. Stuka looked like he was working in slow motion at times and some of his transitions were poorly timed, but his bladejob was beautiful and you'd have to go a long way to find prettier planchas. Everybody knows how I feel about Jerry Estrada, but I thought this was a standout performance from him. It felt like he transplanted one of his Monterrey performances to an AAA ring, though to be fair, Moncolva (where they were wrestling) has had its share of bloody apuesta matches. Estrada was particularly good in the third caida where he carried a lot of the action. I loved his retaliatory abdominal stretch where he applied the fish hook. That was an awesome throwback to old school hair matches. The finish was screwy (a common theme with 1994 AAA), but it actually worked here, and Estrada delivered a nasty piledriver to put the exclamation mark on this puppy. I'm not sure that I'd call it an AAA classic, but for bloody wager matches it's up there with Satanico vs. Morgan and Rambo vs. Villano from the same era and certainly a match you should watch. El Hijo del Santo, Angel Azteca y Super Muneco vs. Satanico, Psicosis y La Parka, AAA 5/30/94 Matt D recommended this to me and holy shit is the technico offence off the chain. It may legitimately be the best technico offence I've seen, and a match I'll recommend from now on if you want to see great technico work. It started with a ferocious lock-up between Satanico and Angel Azteca that was like two wildebeest locking horns. It's well documented in these pages that Satanico was in decline around this time, but this was a vintage opening exchange from him. His defence and counter wrestling were brilliant, and I have no doubt on a different night when the exchange went for longer he could have pried open Azteca's defences and got the opening submission. Psicosis and La Parka let the crowd get to them in amusing fashion and Satanico being the brains and the nucleus gathered them together on the outside to regather their thoughts. Santo then launched into his headscissors routine, which ended up with La Parka crashing hard into the barricade. Super Muenco hit the ring and did his wobbly head shake taunt, and Psicosis' reaction was priceless. He bailed from the ring and mocked what he'd just seen with this classic "what the fuck was that head shaking shit?" indignation. He dove back into the ring with his tail up and of course got his ass handed to him. The great thing about it was that as Super Muneco was doing his Super Astro style celebration at clearing Psicosis from the ring, Parka tried to attack him and Muneco danced in his face. Parka was incensed and took it out on the bottom rope. The effortless interweaving of comedy into the fall was brilliant. Satanico and Azteca went around the horn a second time and cut loose with the armdrag exchanges, and it was fucking great. Hardcore lucha fans will hear me, you know you're into something when you pause to see whether there was a singles match or who Satanico fought for his hair in '94. He was growing it out in anticipation of fighting someone, but it looks like no-one booked him in a hair match until '95. Man was he good in this. You all know he's my favourite luchador and the guy who I think is the best luchador of the past 35 years, but this was a 1990 throwback and pretty special. The technicos then bamboozled the rudos with a tricky and intricate pinning sequence, and as Pepe Casas held their hands aloft it was a beautiful thing. The rudos licked their wounds on the outside and La Parka got into it with a fan. He threatened to climb over the barricade and continue the conversation, but Psicosis held him back. Psicosis then got pissed at the same fan while Parka puffed out his chest. Both guys were in fine form here. Super Muneco tried to the same wobbly head fake shit on Satanico and he just stepped back and popped the clown. Then a couple of exchanges later, Satanico showed some ass. I usually dislike Super Muneco but this was wildly entertaining. Azteca and Psicosis worked at a rapid pace, but Santo and La Parka was just mental. Maybe one of the all-time best El Hijo del Santo trios exchanges, and a lot of credit should go to La Parka for his crazy bumps into the ropes. The rudos wisely slowed things down from there by picking on the weak link Super Muneco. Satanico was the ring general here and orchestrated the rudos' second fall victory. They did a clever job of double teaming the danger man Santo and systematically took apart Azteca. Unfortunately, the third caida had some boring mask ripping and descended into the mediocrity so common with AAA trios, but there were still some golden moments. Satanico continued to brawl like a mofo and had a great punch exchange with Super Muneco and Psicosis took an awesome ring post bump on the outside. Azteca and La Parka ended up swapping masks, which I'm guessing was some idea of Pena's that he was overly fond of. The finish was kind of dumb after such a hot match as the rudos got DQ'ed for a miscommunication spot, but it did leave us with the fun image of the rudos trying to pick a fight with El Tirantes as the El Hijo del Santo's music played. Bad finish aside, I went back and watched the first two falls as soon as it was over, so that should tell you how good the majority of the bout was.

That Martel/Lawler match is pretty sweet. Martel did a good job playing the subtle heel. Definitely going to watch more Martel before it's all said and done. I'm curious who was better in the 80s, Hennig or Martel?

Negro Casas, Black Magic y Mano Negra vs. Mocho Cota, Bestia Salvaje y Emilio Charles Jr., CMLL 5/13/94 Jesus, Cota, Salvaje and Emilio! Check out the mugs on those three. This was rudos contra rudos and started off with some nifty matwork between Black Magic and Salvaje. It's been a while since I've seen Bestia look good in a match and I was instantly reminded of what an underrated talent he was. It was also the best Smiley has looked on the mat in CMLL, which was a nice surprise. Mano Negra and Emilio followed suit and were rock solid. Negra continued his inspired post mask loss run, which was miles better than the lead in to his apuesta match. As they grappled, Cota began stirring trouble from the apron in his usual maniacal fashion. The camera stayed on for quite some time and it was interesting watching him snap from one extreme to the other. As soon as Casas was in, he went straight after Cota, so I'm guessing this was early build towards their hair match. Cota ended up taking over and Bestia impressed me to no end with the sharpness of his rudo beatdown on Smiley. Great punches. A quick search of the Match Finder found no trace of a singles match. The things we miss out on. Emilio helped beat the shit out of Casas to end the fall, thus beginning perhaps the best thread to the match, Emilio vs. Casas. It's not every day you see Emilio Charles Jr and Casas work together, so you better drop what you're doing and watch this. While that particular ass kicking was going on, Bestia was giving one of the patrons a nice up close look at how great his punches look from a foot away. Casas sold his beating like he was in another postal code. At one point, he was trying to punch his way out of the corner and collapsed, desperately lunging at Cota's tights. There was some weird storyline going on where Smiley was trying to help Casas but Negra wasn't. I'm sure it didn't make much sense even in Spanish. Negra then tried this cool choke takedown on Cota, but the Cota team were no mugs in the ring. Bestia threw the most beautiful left hand I think I've ever seen, and of course Cota was in the thick of it all like some kind of vindictive ringmaster. Casas popped back up on the apron in a not-so-great moment of selling, but if you're going to pop up on the apron to lead your side's comeback then there's no better way than the headbutt he gave Cota to turn the tide. Unfortunately, Smiley's retaliatory beatdown of Bestia wasn't in the same league as the one he'd had dished out to him, but it got the job done. There was an amusing moment between falls when Casas began beating on Cota in front of some front row seats. The patrons cleared the seats to avoid being hurt and Casas used the woman's handbag to thrash Cota. Cota picked the thing up and flung it across to the other side of the ring, and you could see the woman aghast about her handbag. Eventually, the ref handed it back to her companion while Cota did his best Terry Funk impersonation and tried to pick a fight with a photographer. The third caida started with a series of exchanges where teammates were making saves for one another until finally it came down to Cota and Negra with no one from Negra's side willing to help him. Negra threw a punch at Casas, who was hugging the apron, but as you'd expect by now there was no big angle. Instead we got more Casas vs. Emilio and God was it great. The finishing stretch was a lot of fun with Cota doing a hilarious punch drunk sell off a Smiley body check then getting caught in a bear hug submission. But as Smiley was shaking Cota all over the ring, Casas ran straight into an Emilio power bomb and that was the match one, two, three. Not a vintage performance from Casas kayfabe wise. The match was fun, though there's definitely better rudos contra rudos stuff out there. Cota was good, but didn't have the same aura as his 80s stuff and was a bit of a sideshow act compared to his godliness on the 80s set. Still, he managed to amuse.

Johnny Saint Pros: * 'Overnight sensation' when debuting for Joint Promotions in 1969 after ten years on the independent circuit * Captured George Kidd's vacant World Lightweight Championship in 1976 defeating Jim Breaks for the title * Presented as the spiritual heir to Kidd and kayfabed as his pupil (actually had very little to do with Kidd and was trained by Billy Robinson) * 10 time World Lightweight Champion as well as British and European Lightweight Champion * Positioned as the top British lightweight wrestler of the 70s and 80s and more or less continental Europe as well * Featured on Cup Final Day three times in his 70s heyday and a regular at the Royal Albert Hall * A regular television fixture from his television debut in 1969 through to the end of wrestling on TV in 1988 * Enjoyed a late career comeback in part to the renaissance of World of Sport through The Wrestling Channel * Greater influence over modern indy workers than any other Euro candidate on the ballot Cons: * Was never really in demand in North America or Japan * Questionable whether he was as good an in-ring worker as other lightweights such as Grey, Breaks or Cortez * Idiosyncratic style * As with all lightweight candidates, actual drawing strength difficult to ascertain * Strangely, not on any of the Wembley Arena shows

If this were 1993 and people were saying wrestling has never been better, I wonder how many people would disagree. There's always going to be people who prefer the contemporary product and those who live in the past, and the same people saying Lanza are wrong and the same ones who'd turn around and say the WWE today is better than the Attitude era or the Smackdown Six era or whatever else suits them. The truth as always lies somewhere in the middle. Some things in wrestling are better today and some things are not, and the same maxim extends as far back into the past as you care to go. If you break the 1980s down from '80 to '89, some things were better in the early 80s and some things were better by the late 80s. Some promotions got stronger while some territories died out. In 1989 you could have argued whether things were better or worse than the 70s to early 80s.

No promotion wants blood on TV, no promotion wants a fan anywhere near the ring, and no promotions wants the threat of a riot. That doesn't mean the heels today couldn't incite those things. Wrestling has been sanitized. Didn't Finlay get fired as a road agent for some flag burning angle or something?

I don't get the emotion thing. Last night I watched the most emotional mask match in 14 years, and people went on a complete emotional roller coaster over Daniel Bryan.

So?

Navarro is their father.