ohtani's jacket

I was thinking more along the lines of garnering support from outside the voter base, though come to think of it people are more likely to casually vote for Saint because they like his shtick. Probably not a good point on my part. I do think there's something missing from him in terms of being a workrate candidate that people from outside the region are drawn to or feel compelled to vote for, but it's probably something as simple as he didn't work North America or Japan in his prime.

The '86 series with a heel Mal Sanders is another feather in the cap of Grey. Just a tremendously fun series along the lines of say Regal/Sting ten years later.

Steve Grey vs. Mal Sanders (11/9/82) This was a one fall bout that was over before it had really begun, but again Grey showed he could fit it with just about anyone in the country and give them a career match. For the time that it lasted, this was an all-action affair with both men going all out to score the winning fall, and if it had continued at that pace it would have ranked among Sanders' top few bouts. I've got to say now though that I was surprised to see the lighter man Grey go over Sanders in a catch weight contest. When you're only on television a couple of times a year that can't do your reputation any good. Bobby Barnes vs. Mal Sanders (6/28/83) Bobby Barnes' image change in the early 80s has got to rank as one of the worst in wrestling history. Not many of you will understand what I mean by that so let me try to explain. Barnes was the ex tag team partner of Adrian Street and for a long time did the same gimmick as Street. He was a quality worker. Maybe not as good as Street, but excellent in his own right. Street left for the indies and was off TV for most of the 70s, so we have far more Barnes available than we do Street. He worked his exotico gimmick up until 1980, and I want to say into '81, then he cut off his long hair, returned it to its natural colour, grew a moustache, starting wear a t-shirt to cover his flab and mixed and matched an odd assortment of tights, trunks and boots. He changed his working style to more of a brawling rule-bending, put tints in his hair and basically looked like some punk version of the Bobby Barnes we used to know. He was a shell of himself in the ring as well. This was okay, but not engaging. Sanders got another cheap DQ win and seemed dead in the water in terms of what they planned to do with him. Jim Breaks vs. Mal Sanders (2/2/84) Criminally short five minute bout from some knockout tournament. Cruel tease of a possible Breaks/Sanders match. Mal Sanders vs. Steve Grey (9/16/86) Steve Grey vs. Mal Sanders (9/3/86) Steve Grey vs. Mal Sanders (10/15/86) This was a three match series from '86 that was one of the best things on television that year and another feather in Grey's cap. Sanders had turned heel by this stage and was doing this odd gimmick where he came to the ring in an American football helmet and jersey (complete with shoulder pads.) Don't ask me why. The first match I had actually seen before. Here's what I said about it at the time: Insightful! It was actually a pretty good match. Sanders was arguably a bit corny with his heel act, but it worked for me. In the first match from 9/3, he had beaten Grey by 2 falls to 0 and the 9/16 rematch was supposed to be a title bout for Grey's British Lightweight title. Instead, they decided to milk it for one more match by claiming that Sanders was over the weight limit. He won 2-0 again and trained down to the lightweight limit for what was a hugely entertaining title fight. Sanders had been doing this shtick where every time Grey tried to put him in his surfboard he'd force a break in the ropes. In a bit of inconsistent rule keeping, the referee was on his back about these tactics, and Grey milked it for all it was worth with surfboard teases and the inevitable submission. Women in the crowd were on their feet willing Grey to lift him in the surfboard and tensions were pretty high all round. For some reason, the president of the AWA Stanley Blackburn was in attendance to award the winner the belt. Walton managed to butcher his information in true Walton fashion. They pulled a bit of a Dusty finish at the end, and these two women, who I can only assume were Mal "Superstar" Sanders fans, approached the ring screaming at Grey that he still hadn't beaten Mal. Sanders to his credit was a pretty entertaining heel on a sort of Paul Orndorff level, but this was great television for '86 and another example of Grey bringing out the best in folks.

Workrate was never about who did the most stuff. It was about who did more stuff than Hulk Hogan or Riki Choshu or Perro Aguayo. I don't think you can properly explore the workrate concept without fleshing out what it was in opposition to.

The Breaks trilogy is phenomenal and I forgot about the great Finlay bout. The rest of his Young David stuff is either incomplete or not as good and that includes bouts against some pretty good workers like Marty Jones, Pete Roberts and Clive Myers. The match where he comes back in '83 all roided up is completely surreal. I would take teenage Dynamite Kid over Young David on sheer talent. DK was excellent as a teen. His '83 bout with Jones smashes what Davey was capable of at the time. Davey had the longer career though with singles work in the big leagues. I remember being rather impressed by his first WCW run. The matches with Vader were good and the Regal bout was interesting.

Hiroshi Tanahashi vs. Katsuyori Shibata (9/21/14) * Their match in the G-1 was one of my favourites from the tournament and I liked this a lot as well. No, it wasn't five stars and probably wasn't as good as the tournament match either, but it was very good. * Tanahashi appears to have pared back his style in recent times. Not so many of the 30 minute epics anymore. Whether this is because of his physical condition I'm not sure, but it's rather noticeable. * Improved lock-ups appear to be a new staple of his work, but this was also the snuggest his work has ever looked. If he worked this tight the majority of the time his critics might have a higher opinion of him. Even his transition moves that people dislike looked stiff and his strikes were the best they've ever been. * The finishing stretch wasn't quite as dramatic as in the G-1, but it was far from excessive and that's a welcome relief. A few of the spots in the build didn't work so well, but the strikes were consistently good all match long and I have a hard time believing that anyone who preaches violence in wrestling wouldn't enjoy this. It wasn't perfect, but it was violent. * Again, Tanahashi delivers a good match. It's beyond a trend now. You'd have to say the guy is a pretty good worker.He's more of a Shawn Michaels/Keiji Mutoh/Manami Toyota vein of good worker than say Toshiaki Kawada, but a good worker nonetheless. * Around *** 3/4

Japanese fans pop for kickouts because nearfalls and counting along are part of the show for them. In the match Dave gave five stars to, they pop when the workers beat the count out, not because they believed they wouldn't make it back into the ring but because it's a spot they're supposed to pop for. They're a well conditioned audience, but they enjoy it very much.

I've kind of softened on Rocco recently. His work in the late 70s was extremely good. I'm even inclined to think he has the best case out of all three of them simply because of the way Dixon used him in All-Star.

I figured it may be a turnoff for some voters the way lucha can be. You're probably right about it being the reason people vote for him, but it will take more than their votes to get him into the hall I suspect.

I'd be generally happy if the discussion of Flair was dropped the way this thread is going.

Again pointless... Actors don't star in movies with the same frequency that wrestlers work matches, and besides Brando's acting career also encompasses his stage work. Flair produced his work w/ some direction from the booker or road agent. Brando did not produce his material.

These acting comparisons are pointless unless you can point to bad movies that Brando and De Niro wrote, produced, directed and starred in. Otherwise the closest analogy would be periods where Flair was booked poorly.

The only good Parka one is the first one. The other two have terrible booking. All of the Satanico matches are disappointing. You want them to be Flair/Steamboat, but they're not. I'm sure they must have hit one out of the park at some stage but not on tape.

You shouldn't be afraid to do things like this. It's better that someone makes their case for Michaels rather than comments like he wouldn't be in my top 500. You will probably get some support as there are bound to be other Shawn Michaels fans around here. Shawn Michaels as #1 is an interesting viewpoint and challenges the current take on him, and I love people challenging that sort of thing. The poll is a good opportunity to reassess whether we've gone overboard on certain wrestlers in the past ten years, and you may swing some people back in favour of putting him on their ballot. I want to hear the argument.

The entire Los Intocables run, especially the matches against the Brazos and Infernales, through to his mask match with El Supremo. I will comb through my blog archive to get specific dates.

Great worker who even managed to overcome the trappings of AAA and have some brilliant matches while he was there, which not too many others can say. Was good for an awfully long time. Along with Solar and Atlantis, one of the great masked technicos of the modern era.

Another case of wishing we had more footage, but from the UWA and AAA we have he looks on par with the best wrestlers in the business. The best wrestler in Mexico in 1992 was Casas, but there's a chance Espanto was in the top 5.

I like Pierroth a lot from '90 to '92. After that he's spotty, but that 1992 run was one of the most outstanding things in early 90s lucha.

I enjoyed his match against Flair more than I ever have before, though it was still a bit of a chore. The Ricky Martel love continues!

I dunno. I just wanted to know what Savage did that was good. I don't care about any of that other stuff.

What did he do that was that great from '93 to the time he retired? The Flair and DDP feuds?

I was introduced to the term from the old RSPW FAQ. I think that definition is good enough, though I would probably substitute restholds for down time. To me, workrate refers to the amount of action in a match. It's closely related to pace as workers with high workrate tend to up the tempo and maintain a steady tempo, but can also refer to intensity. It's important. I have low tolerance for wrestling I find boring. I get restless and start wanting to do other things. But it's a bit like Goldilocks and her porridge -- not too hot, not too cold, just right. I don't like matches that are too dense and have too many moves. I don't like matches which are unnecessarily long or too short. I don't like it in older matches when they stop working the mat to end a fall, and I don't like it when you have two falls of brawling in an apuesta match and a third caida of back and forth junior style action. In general, I like the action to escalate so that by the end of the match you have a sense of how far they've come from the first lock-up, but on the other hand I don't want it telegraphed. Like Goldilocks, I'm difficult to please. Matwork, selling, a basic structure, rhythm, timing, maybe a bit of acting and some basic narrative. All of these things are "working," therefore workrate is important. Workrate was a more important metric when it was used to champion midcard workers. I don't think it's as relevant as it used to be. I don't think it's important what metric you use so long as you can explain what you like. Too many people hang their hat on some kind of psychology/character/story metric and rubbish workrate matches, but that's an easy target. If you can't criticse the stuff you like then it's no better than being a huge workrate fan. It had a huge influence. It was my first introduction to work and workers. Without it I doubt I would have continued to be a fan. I may not be enamored with the same workers I was in the late 90s, but it provided the basic foundation for how I watched and view wrestling and ultimately how I judged it. There's a downside to that though. Before I experienced that influence, I was into practically everything that was presented in wrestling. Now I find it hard to enjoy a lot of stuff because I'm always critiquing it. But I was very much influenced by what I first read on the internet, yes.

I wasn't really referring to his character but his work. I don't think he's anywhere near as assured in the ring in the Mid-Atlantic footage as he would become later even when the shtick is the same. He wrestles like a United States champion as opposed to a Wotld champion. That was the impression I got.

Isn't the generation who thought those things dead?