ohtani's jacket

She's worth nominating.

Her best match before 1990 is the Chigusa singles match. After 1997, her most notable match was the 2001 Satomura match.

Jackie Pallo Pros: * Mr. TV, one of the first guys to take full advantage of the opportunities TV exposure brought * Household name in Britain * One of the first wrestlers to adopt a razzmatazz television gimmick * Forged a show business career that included number acting appearances * Cup Final Day match with McManus purportedly drew a massive number of viewers Cons: * Breakaway independent promotion failed * Was said to be a poor businessman * Other wrestlers didn't have a high opinion of him as a worker * Not a hugely popular figure in the locker room * Only one full match of his survives on tape * Worked a comedy style some may not appreciate * 1985 autobiography exposed the business * Only had one championship run, the British Heavy-Middleweight title in 1969, which he won during a feud with Bert Royal * More than likely wasn't trusted by promoters due to his constant threats to break away and form his own promotion

The Sakuraba matches were a great eff you to the UWF. Rumour has it that Tamura very nearly went to Pancrase, which would have been a loss for late 90s puroresu.

What I meant by limited footage is that there's not much footage of him for voters to watch including none from Germany that I know of. German tournaments aren't something I am very familiar with and I imagine that is true for most voters. I'm not even sure how important the tournaments were in relation to each other as most people are only aware of Hanover. Hoffman being booked to win each tournament by Kaiser was only a possible con, if he was the biggest star in the promotion or indeed the country then it makes sense, but it's something Daddy gets held against him in relation to Brian and Max Crabtree. I can't speak for his AWA standing, but I don't think he was a big star in Japan. Certainly not on Billy Robinson or Frank Gotch's level. Kaiser is an interesting guy for a candidate. Is it fair to say he was the most important German promoter of the post-war period? Promoters haven't really gotten a look in for the European section yet.

Because people don't want to watch wrestlers when they're old and broken down? You have to be pretty invested in a wrestler (or curious) to want to see how good he was all after his prime. And greatness in older wrestlers is even more contentious than greatness in wrestlers full stop. People who like the wrestler tend to get far more out of their later worker than people who don't. Look at Blue Panther.

Thanks for that. I keep reading that Joyce wasn't mean enough and didn't want to hurt people, so was he really a ripper?

Jumbo had a whole period where he worked comedy 6-man tags. I don't know how many are on tape, but I'm damn sure people ignore them.

He was washed up pretty fast. He seemed to age quicker than any worker I can remember. There's some decent old man Fiera stuff where he's not really that old, he just looks it. Wouldn't consider him myself. Emilio Charles Jr is my cut off for luchadores I've decided, and Emilio > Fiera.

I don't mind if people use those standards so long as they're consistent with them. By which I mean you don't just apply to them to Flair but every nominee. Personally, I think it's a case by case matter -- it works in some wrestler's favour and other times it doesn't matter -- but I would find it kind of odd if someone watched a dozen Kandori matches from her prime and voted her, but held Flair to these standards. I also don't see how a universal standard can be applied when everyone ages differently and we're not always privy to what the wrestler can and cannot do physically. And maybe people are just flat out overrating older Andre and everyone else.

Kendo Nagasaki Pros: * One of the biggest stars in British wrestling history to the point where he's still featured on television and in print today * Enduring gimmick and a decent worker * Was a big draw in the 70s and 80s and continued to draw even after wrestling lost television * Like Haystacks, traveled more extensively than some of the other names on the ballot * Several legendary feuds such as Count Bartelli in the mid 60s and Big Daddy in the mid 70s * His unmasking on New Year's Eve 1977 was one of the most highly anticipated and most memorable moments of wrestling's run on ITV Cons: * Failed move to the indies in the mid 70s led to his first retirement and when he returned to Joint and television was never the same again * Failed face turn after unmasking * Involved in plenty of silliness in the waning days of wrestling on ITV (disco ladder match with Cliver Myers, hypnotizing Regal and Brookside) * Said to have become somewhat aimless after the death of his manager George E. Gillette * No dead set classic match on tape * At least a dozen or more better heavyweights wrestling in the country at any point in his career

The last Toyota match I watched I really enjoyed (Toyota/Yamada from '89.) It seems redundant to point out all her flaws. For me she's no worse a candidate than Liger or Kobashi or Takada or Hase.

Completely hinges on how well her ARSION work holds up. I'll hand the floor over to Loss.

Jackie wasn't a bad worker, which she got to show more of after Maki retired, and I like the way she fits into the lineage of AJW ace's, but you'd have to say that both Mariko Akagi and Jaguar Yokota outshone her as pure workers from the same era and showed what Joshi was capable of in an era when it wasn't supposed to be very good. You could add Yumi Ikeshita to that list too.

Now that I've kind of come around on Rocco, Saint stands as the most overrated British worker of all-time. How he ever got a rep of being better than his contemporaries like Grey, Breaks and Rocco is beyond me. He does have some outstanding matches, though, including just about the best WoS tag I've seen, but it's mixed with a lot of disappointing stuff. I don't just say this because he's a gateway guy and I want to be all Pitchfork about it. Watch Saint vs. lesser names and compare it with Grey against everybody.

Previously one of my all-time favourites and perhaps my pick for the best actor in all of wrestling. Haven't thought about her for a long time. Even when I was a fan, you had to gloss over the fact that she botched a lot of moves. That's easy to do if you buy into her character, but I'm not all that keen on revisiting her unless it's new stuff I haven't seen. The JWP promotion really was wonderful though. It was such a tiny indy but the girls were like a close knit family. I have fond memories of the promotion and watching the TV.

At the peak of Black Terry Jr footage, I thought he was a top ten luchador all-time on tape. He's been a bit out of sight out of mind of late, but what the great brawlers in lucha history and one of the great character workers. It gets to the point where it sounds like a broken record, but I'd desperately like to have footage of him from his younger days. I can't imagine he was anything less than sensational from the mid 80s through to the early 90s.

Should have been the next guy in the Lizmark/Solar/Atlantis mold, but wasn't. His '88-90 is a great run (maybe the best run of the guys CMLL tried to push as new stars), but he fell off a cliff after that.

His 90s stuff needs to be reevaluated as there was at least one trios I watched recently where I thought he gave a great performance. I really want to see the Casas hair match from '94. I doubt he has enough matches on tape to crack this list unless you go for sheer ability was a performer and then he belongs in the the conversation.

I've loved Franz van Buyten ever since the day you introduced me to him. Voting him onto a list like this may be a bridge too far for him, but I'd rather watch him than a million other guys who've been nominated. Footage is the big issue as you know how infuriating the German footage is.

Unfortunately, I think there's only seven Alan Sarjeant matches on tape. The definitive mindblowing Brit technician sums him up perfectly. He's the Volk Han of British wrestling in other words.

One of the greatest heels in European wrestling history. The recent catch stuff was a revelation. Kind of a hard sell to folks around here, but if you're watching that Chicago archives stuff I don't see why you wouldn't check out Lasartesse.

Yeah, it's Carl.

There's five matches available from the 70s. The rest of his stuff is from Reslo and the 80s. Flat out one of the best workers ever in my opinion, and while I dislike this kind of terminology, he was one of the best workers in the world in the early 80s. His series with Haward was light years ahead of what anybody else was doing in the early 80s. It's as close to shoot style in a 1980 British ring as you will see from any other match-up.

Billy Joyce Pros: * Considered to be one of the greatest heavyweights of the post war era and one of the finest technicians of his era * Often referred to as the best wrestler to come out of Wigan's Snake Pit * One of the last British workers to be considered a "ripper," a shooter who could genuinely hurt people * Six time British Heavyweight Champion from 1958 to 1966 * One time European Heavyweight Champion in 1961 * Dropped both titles to Billy Robinson in '67 and '65 respectively to put him over * Took over most of the training duties at the Snake Pit in the 60s and 70s with Ernie Riley, son of Bill Riley * Had a hand in training Billy Robinson and Karl Gotch, as well as Alan Woods, John Naylor, and Dynamite Kid briefly. Cons: * No footage whatsoever * Often said to be uncharismatic and overshadowed by more flamboyant wrestlers * No clear evidence that he was a draw * Disliked traveling thus didn't raise his profile overseas