ohtani's jacket

Labeling Sting as a failure implies (to me, anyway) that he was responsible for that failure in some way. To date, no-one has explained what his failings were. KrisZ already ran through the booking and from the numbers it doesn't look like anyone could have done better than Sting in the period. So unless there's some overwhelming reason why Sting was poor in the ace role what is he being taken to task for? Because he wasn't a national draw on the level of Hogan? Sting on top may have been a failure, but how exactly did Sting fail in the role? And why does Hogan get credit for the NWO when he turned around and fucked the whole angle up, ultimately destroying the company? It was a hot angle that revitalised Hogan's flagging act and unlike Sting he didn't get the legs cut out from under him. None of this is a reason for Sting being in the HOF, but I don't think it's as simple as Sting dropping the ball. I also think it's stupid how non-American candidates are elected into the Hall without half as much analysis of their drawing ability as Sting. There wasn't even a single argument about McManus for example.

It actually got AJW temporarily kicked off the air in some regions of Japan if the story is true.

That '82 Devil/Jaguar match is clipped so it's a tough comparison, but by '85 she had began a face turn after being phased out as the top native heel.

That's not the argument I would make against Edge. Does anyone make that argument against Edge? I've probably forgotten the arguments against Edge. I thought people had counter arguments for Meltzer's points about Edge as a ratings draw or whatever it is. My point really is about timing. If Edge were to get in because he came along at a time when business was strong and Sting doesn't because he was on top when business was poor then how much of it is based on each man's merits or lack thereof and how much is sheer dumb luck?

Well, if it had nothing to do with Sting and everything to do with the business then why emphasise what a poor draw he was? Unless there were specific reasons why he couldn't draw. What were his failings? That's not the point. What were his successes? Putting Sting in the HOF because his failures weren't his fault isn't a particularly strong case. At some point, you have to switch from just responding to negatives and start producing some big positives, which I haven't really seen anyone do yet. It's all in a feeling, which is fine, but it's not a HOF case. I'm not trying to say it strengths his case. I just think if his failure to draw wasn't his fault then it shouldn't be held against him as black mark. Wrestling is a business and it's on the bookers first and foremost if a promotion can't draw. If Sting had done something to turn customers away I could understand the emphasis, but apart from being wooden and not as charismatic as the top stars he did just about everything you'd expect of him. When business was bad he couldn't spike attendance. When business was in an upswing he played his part. People are basically holding it against him that he wasn't an all-time great draw. I understand your point about producing positives, but what I'm driving at is that if there's a big negative then people ought to be clearer about whose fault it was instead of pinning it on the worker like they're inherently to blame.

Well, if it had nothing to do with Sting and everything to do with the business then why emphasise what a poor draw he was? Unless there were specific reasons why he couldn't draw. What were his failings?

The thing I don't get about Sting is that people say he couldn't draw during a low drawing period but then they say guys like Edge shouldn't be in for drawing during a reasonable drawing period, so if Sting had been in Edge's position would he be a HOF'er?

From now on, I'm going to refer to Tito Santana as a curtain jerkin', headlin' mid-carder and Brad Armstrong as an Alabama playa.

Yeah, I definitely would have.

That Arn/Windham match is awesome. I was disappointed when I was the only person who seemed to give a shit about it in the WCW poll. The tag is cool as well. Just curious, what from 91 wcw did you put over it? I don't have a copy of my ballot anymore, but I can't remember voting for too many matches from '91. My ballot was pretty 1989, 1990 and '92 heavy with a few matches from '94. I quite liked the beginning of '91 before Flair jumped.

Is it really that unusual for wrestling to be in a movie? My favourite wrestling "appearance" is probably the author of a book on soul music interrupting Screamin' Jay Hawkins watching the graps.

I don't care about the WON HOF and find this all a theoretical exercise but I don't think you can disregard the booking. Major stars are booked well. How many instances can people think of where this wasn't the case? If you're going to argue that Sting couldn't draw alongside Rude, Roberts and Vader surely that means that the heels couldn't draw either.

What was the time frame for Sting being on top? I've always been a bit partial towards Sting as I think he was capable in the ring, but can you really blame him for not drawing with shit like the White Castle of Fear and all of his other escapades? Sting was a poor promo and a shabby actor which stopped him from being a bigger star IMO, but Bret was no great shakes in that department either. The difference between them is that when Bret had his annus horribilis in '95 someone had the good sense to make it part of the build-up to the Survivor Series '95 title shot with those cool sitdown interviews which were also the beginning of Diesel seeming actually bad ass. What did Sting get in '95? Dungeon of Doom? The Flair feud? Spare a thought for what he had to work with.

Thought this was pretty much what you'd expect from these two in this sort of setting even with the eye injury. Decent outing for a Dome show but it would've been more heated in a venue like Denen Coliseum, which was used for Hansen/Andre (though it was closed by this point.)

The last time I watched All Japan for Ditch's poll I thought all of the Jumbo vs. young guy matches were on the weak side. I much preferred the six mans from this era.

That Arn/Windham match is awesome. I was disappointed when I was the only person who seemed to give a shit about it in the WCW poll. The tag is cool as well.

Actually, I take it back as there was Regal/Finlay and some other stuff I liked, but '98 pff. The view never changes promo is better than 1998 in its entirety.

Well, really it's the Stud Stable feud, but there is nothing wrong with Bunk or Parker in that feud. Nothing good ever happens in WCW ever again after that feud unless you like the crappy Nitro era. Undersell it at your peril.

Ultimately it would have amounted to nothing. Hulk Hogan couldn't sustain the business past a certain point. Magnum wasn't going to do shit. Wrestling has a finite lifespan the same as everything else.

There's a handheld of a Piper/Savage match from December '86. They also worked that pre-Wrestlemania III Savage/Adonis/Race vs. Steamboat/Piper/Junkyard Dog elimination match and they had a couple of matches against each other in WCW.

The biggest markets are the ones he has attendance for plus Osaka, Nagoya and probably Hiroshima and Shizuoka too. All the best main event match-ups appear to be on those cards. Saga is pretty good but not a huge city. Doesn't look like there's anything to help Patera's case.

Had a look for '84 results. Could only find two matches that aired on TV then got interrupted by a fairly decent earthquake.

Here's the entire 10/21 Yokohama card if it's any use to you: Giant Baba/Jumbo Tsuruta vs. Bobo Brazil/Ken Patera Great Kojika/Motoshi Okuma vs. Genichiro Tenryu/Rocky Hata Akihisa Takachiho vs. Wahoo McDaniel Rocky Tamayo vs. The Destroyer Jay Youngblood vs. Samson Kutsuwada Mitsuo Momota vs. Mitsu Hirai Munenori Higo vs. Mr. Hayashi Masanobu Fuchi vs. Masao Ito

Yokohama, Osaka and Nagayo are the three biggest cities outside of Tokyo (which technically isn't a city but a metropolis.) Geographically, I think some of the other cities are worth considering because of how Japan works regionally, but it's your call. Remember, Japan is really only a collection of small islands and All Japan toured up and down the country as opposed to however many states US promotions covered. I don't think the 10,000 metric makes much sense for countries like Japan that didn't have indoor venues that size and I don't agree with Dave's argument about using open spaces like in Mexico. A lot of these country results were in markets or high schools. In the bigger cities or more well drawing areas, Baba seemed to rent out some decent capacity buildings, especially the sumo and boxing venues which wouldn't have been cheap. That seems like the metric to me.

And the last part of the tour: 10/27/77: Ken Patera def. Samson Kutsuwada (Sakata, 4000) 10/28/77: Bobo Brazil/Jumbo Tsuruta/Samson Kutsuwada def. Giant Baba/Ken Patera/Rocky Tamayo (Tajima, Fukushima, 3000) 10/29/77: Ken Patera def. The Destroyer (Kuroiso, 2800) 10/30/77: Ken Patera def. Genichiro Tenryu (Fujinomiya, 1600) 10/31/77: Giant Baba/Kim Duk def. Ken Patera/Rocky Hata (Nagano Municipal Gymnasium, 4000) 11/1/77: Ken Patera def. Great Kojika (Iiyama, 3000) 11/2/77: Ken Patera def. Samson Kutsuwada (Tsunan, Niigata, 2000) 11/3/77: Ken Patera DCO The Destroyer (Korakuen Hall, 2800) 11/4/77: Ken Patera def. Rocky Hata (Suwa, 4000) Notes: -- Patera was further down the card on the back end of the tour. Only one mainevent on 10/28 and semi mains on 10/30, 10/31 and 11/4. -- The Sakata show in Yamagata was main evented by Wahoo/Youngblood vs. Tsutura/Hata. The Nagano show was main evented by The Destroyer vs. Bobo Brazil, and the Suwa show was main evented by Baba/Duk vs. Brazil/Tsuruta. -- The Korakuen Hall show was apparently main evented by an Animal Hamaguchi/Goro Tsurumi vs. Great Kojika/Motoshi Okuma All Asian Tag Team Championship match, which I thought was cool.