-
Posts
9212 -
Joined
-
Last visited
Content Type
Profiles
Forums
Blogs
Everything posted by ohtani's jacket
-
Can't say Trauma's look bothers me. IWRG's Thursday show seems better than their Sunday tapings. They didn't have a great year but some of their stuff was solid. I've seen a bit of Arena Coliseo Monterrey. Seemed a little amateur to me. I'm probably the only guy who watches lucha that hates La Peste Negra. I fucking hate Mr. Niebla and all that comedy shit. Brazos comedy was fantastic. La Peste Negra is juvenile crap.
-
Ridiculous quotes from WO.com columnists
ohtani's jacket replied to sek69's topic in Megathread archive
I guess he's saying that the match won't be very good. -
Rumours that Bret Hart might return to the WWE...
ohtani's jacket replied to a topic in Pro Wrestling
Well Frank, I don't think Bret changing his story a bunch of times is grounds for calling him a liar. I can see that his inconsistency bothers you, but I don't think he has as clear cut an idea about the truth as you expect him to, and I don't think he can separate his emotions from these issues. As for Tiger Woods, he'll recover. The same way Beckham did, and Warne, and Magic Johnson, and Kobe Bryant... and every other major sports star who cheated on his wife. -
El Hijo del Santo vs. Felino, CMLL 7/25/97 This was a revancha for Santo's title loss to Felino on July 4th; a match that ended with one of the great screwjob finishes of all time. If you've never seen that bout, I highly recommend it. It's one of the best lucha matches of the 90s and the finish is pure Casas. This revancha didn't offer much in the way of revenge, and I should've known by the number of times they showed Casas at ringside that they were just furthering the angle, but a few things stood out: The first was how natural an actor Casas was. The camera kept looking for him in this bout. I have no idea whether Casas knew that the camera was on him, but he looked so legitimately concerned for his brother that it really did con me into thinking that this was a serious bout with serious consequences. I don't know how worthy professional wrestling is as a form of acting, but I will say that Casas had amazing range as a performer. Santo, on the other hand, didn't have quite as much range. This was a poor rudo performance from my perspective. The Santo heel turn is deservedly famous, as it was a surprisingly shrewd piece of booking that drew back the crowds to Arena Mexico, but I'd have to say that Santo's part was mostly carried by the charisma of his opponents and the reality of seeing him on the same side as a cretin like Bestia Salvaje. Santo did a few things to "act" rudo here. He jumped Felino before the bell, roughed up him slightly and paused between normal Santo moves to convey some sort of disconnect with the crowd, but he never really had the convictions of a rudo, and that's why it was so easy to turn him technico after the feud had run dry. Santo, in truth, never wanted to be a rudo, which is something he claimed in interviews but couldn't project in the ring. Perhaps that's expecting too much, but there was a revancha match for a guy who was screwed out of his title. Most rudos would be baying for blood; Felino's first and then his brother's. In fairness to Santo, he'd begun ripping Felino's mask when Casas ran into the ring to cause a DQ, but the earlier work was neither aggressive enough from Santo nor sold well enough by Felino. If Santo's dislike for Negro Casas was so consuming that it forced him to turn rudo, then it ought to have been incessant at this point. He might not have felt it in his gut earlier, but had he played this role better, I think he would have sunk further into "rudoism" with this match. On the flipside, Santo's dives were awesome in this. They were the same dives that Santo always does, but it never ceases to amaze me how outstanding they are each time. These days, workers are constantly diving. They might as well be diving through hoops in a three ring circus. Take one look at it and your first reaction is: "what the fuck are they doing?" It's astounding how much mileage Santo got out of his dives when you take one look at modern matches and never want to see the workers again. OK, that's not true. There's a few guys who do dives which are worth watching again, but none of them are mainevent workers like Santo was. So, how did he do it? It's not really a matter of execution; there's guys doing far more difficult dives these days and executing them perfectly. It helps that he held off on them until late in the match, instead of jumping the gun. It also helps that he was a proper wrestler and not some guy who had no business being in the ring; but I think the reason is that they were simple moves albeit incredibly well executed. No matter how many new ideas people try to come up, there hasn't been a dive yet that beats a well executed tope. I hate springboard moves with a passion. If I were in charge of training luchadores, I'd tell them that the lord gave them three ropes through which to dive and a top turnbuckle from which to jump off, and if any of them wish to dive over the top rope or springboard themselves, they better be able to wrestle. I'm sure Diablo Velasco would approve. Anyway, this was a decent watch in the context of the Santo/Casas brothers feud, but not a compelling watch on its own.
-
Time for some lucha awards. 2009 was a frustrating year that saw a lot of sources for IWRG and Arena Puebla appear and disappear, but at the same time a lot of random lucha indy footage made its way onto the internet. These awards are unashamedly based on the Tapatía Awards at cubsfan's site, and this year I asked Raging Noodles to give us his thoughts too. Don't bother reading them if you like CMLL and AAA. Best Wrestler: RN -- Negro Navarro This was one of the best years for Negro Navarro. He looked great in all of the Dinastía Navarro vs Terribles Cerebros trios, especially when working against Dr. Cerebro and Black Terry. He brought his underrated brawling skills to the memorable feud, and had some awesome moments of brawling with his fellow maestro Black Terry. When it's the right time in a feud, Navarro can throw down like he's Bill Dundee. He had a MOTYC with Solar I back in May and his Delaware Chikara match (which popped up for one Summer night on a Brazilian video streaming site before disappearing forever) featured some incredible action with Solar I in the primera caida, and a great destruction of Quackenbush in the segunda caida. Has had scattered matches all throughout YouTube over 2009, some were great while others were merely routine contests. His last great match of the year involved Navarro teaming up with Fishman Jr. & Arcanos to take on Perro Mastin, Platino, & Solar I (11/22/09) in another match with some brilliant Solar/Navarro matwork. OJ -- Negro Navarro Navarro wins this by default simply by being the best wrestler in Mexico. An interesting tidbit about Negro Navarro came our way this year courtesy of Mike Quackenbush, who wrote: "Super Crazy, like my mentor Jorge Rivera, is a generous person, and if there was some bit of information or knowledge you'd like him to share, he wouldn't hesitate. Anything he knew he'd be happy to teach you, from the tiniest transition to the most intricate of holds. This stands in contrast to the disposition of another luchador I crossed paths with earlier in the year - Negro Navarro. Well-respected for his mastery on the mat, Navarro is anything but generous, and delights in taking advantage of his opponents." When Raging Noodles asked Steve Sims about Navarro, he got the following reply: "[Negro Navarro] has little respect for people not in his generation, and does not care for the path that modern day lucha libre has taken away form the mat work. He will really stretch people with whom he is working, if he is not very respectful of them prior to the match." All of that makes Negro Navarro seem incredibly badass, regardless of how unfair it is on the workers he doesn't respect, but I have to admit that the stretching got a little old this year. If Navarro doesn't care for the path that modern day lucha libre has taken (and God knows why anyone would), I'd like to see him working proper matches for a change. It seems to me that we got more Negro Navarro this year, but less quality matches than in previous years. Best Match: RG: 1. Zatura vs Trauma II (6/18/09) Excellent match from two young guys, and Trauma II's coming out party. They had some ambitious and creative ideas that were interesting to watch unfold. But while some didn't turn out smoothly in execution, this deserves a million points for what they were able to create as a whole. It was an earnest effort from both these grapplers and they managed to pull off some really complex matwork that felt totally fresh and alive. One of the best things about this match was how unique it was, at certain moments it felt like a BattlArts contest, with some beautiful matwork naturally blended in with some very violent bodypart work, some headbutts, the very memorable striking exchange in the 3rd fall and a couple of awesome highspots. They did a lot in this match, but they still managed to pace things, create a nice flow, and they actually sold their shoulder injuries in a remarkable manner. These two give me a little hope that maybe the future of lucha libre won't be so bad if these guys continue to get better and better. 2. Toro Bill Sr., Espiritu Maligno, and Mister Rafaga vs Tigre Rojo, Black Tiger and Blue Center (3/2/09) This felt like an actual classic lucha libre match, and all the workers in this match made it look so easy. The effortlessness displayed in this match shows how good these guys are and how familiar they must be with each other. Toro Bill Sr. is such a great veteran rudo, dude can work the mat, take lighting quick roll bumps, and lead a good rudo beatdown. Blue Center is a great technico that works so gracefully and moves around the ring like Gene Kelly or Fred Astaire. Everyone else fills their role nicely, and Espirutu Maligno is a pretty insane bump maniac and takes some nasty bumps. All the finishes to the 3 falls are spectacular as well. Beautiful wrestling. OJ: Zatura vs Trauma II (6/18/09) Originally, I was going to go with the Delaware trios for the same reasons that I chose the Lucha Libre London trios last year, but in the end I decided that Zatura vs. Trauma II was the most promising thing to come out of Mexico since I started writing this blog. Those of you who read this blog on a regular basis will know that I have almost nothing good to say about young workers or the path that modern lucha libre has taken, but this was an excellent match. I wouldn't say that it left me optimistic about the future, because it was wrestled in IWRG and I've barely seen anything from either guy since, but the best thing about this match is that it wasn't some sort of throwback lucha libre match; it was a perfectly modern match, which shows that if these young guys want to wrestle in a way that's different from the older generation, they can, so long as they're good enough. Best Technico: RN -- Solar I If Blue Center had made more tape and had performed at the level he was performing in his 3/2/09 and 6/15/09 matches, he probably should have gotten the pick. Maybe in 2010, some great Blue Center work will suddenly appear and I'll be able to retroactively pick him for this category. But as it is, in 2009, the best technico is still Solar and he's the Kiyoshi Tamura to Navarro's Volk Han. Such a graceful worker, can still pull off some of the most beautiful matwork sequences in the world, as he proved many times throughout the year in numerous matches in front of crowds of under 100 people. Some of the quickness and speed he displayed is astonishing for a guy his age. His work in Chikara and in the 11/22/09 trios are the matches to check out to see a perfect example of this. He's still a charming technico that you get up and root for. OJ -- Valiente Earlier in the year, Freelance and Valiente were neck and neck in this category. One guy would give an awesome performance and the other guy would challenge it, and there was a bit of a duel going on (in my eyes, that is.) Then Freelance injured himself and Valiente decided the best way to get ahead was to look like those CMLL callboys in pose in bodybuilding contests each year. Both guys are shittily booked and qualify for this award on potential more than anything else, but I'm going with Valiente since he's one of the few guys whose stuff looks good in CMLL. Best Rudo: RN -- Negro Casas I was thinking about rudos in general, and no one really stands out the way MS-1, El Satanico, Perro Aguayo Sr., or Sangre Chicana stood out in previous decades. Even a few years ago, we at least had Universo 2000 standing tall as a top notch charismatic rudo that knows how to work great arena matches. This...to put it nicely, wasn't the best of years for professional wrestling. I was impressed by some undercard workers like Toro Bill Sr., who proved to be a great journeyman and a few others caught my eye as well. But for best rudo, I guess I'll go with the obvious pick of Negro Casas. Casas' has always been a guy who works so much better as a loud expressionistic rudo than as a technico. I wasn't as crazy about his work as others seemed to be, and his rudo shtick seems a bit minor compared to his previous great rudo runs like in 1992. But in a year like this, Casas seems like the right and obvious answer. His tag team title match, some trios and his matches with Mistico (which I enjoyed while still thinking they were ridiculously overrated) still had small moments of Casas' past greatness, and he is still a guy that can sell a technico comeback as good as anyone. Not to mention, his inring charisma and facial expressions are still pretty great. OJ -- Policeman Fuck La Peste Negra. You couldn't pay me to watch Negro Casas' crap this year. I had to think long and hard about this category. To be honest, I don't think there's anyone deserving of this award. The best thing you can say for most rudoes these days are that they're decent foils for the technicos, but did anybody really work rudo this year? I mean really work rudo. Policeman may seem like an absurd choice, but he's a guy with an obvious rudo gimmick who managed to have an entertaining feud with Centella de Oro. It was mostly built around lowblows, but led to one of the better hair matches this year and was one of the only successfully booked things to make it onto TV all year, presumably because the CMLL higher ups don't give a fuck about the Puebla shows. So my vote goes to a guy who bumped and stooged, was ran out of town and came back for more. Best Unit: RN -- Terribles Cerebros I mentioned their memorable feud with the Navarro family earlier, but they also ended up being in a bunch of other really good IWRG matches. Black Terry is a great captain, a grizzled journeyman who's done it all, and one of the handful of workers that is Navarro's equal. Dr. Cerebro has stepped it up to become one of the most talented workers in the world, and Cerebro Negro is such a reliable solid smart performer. Another match worth checking out is a Terribles Cerebros vs Pirata Morgan Jr., Hijo Del Pirata Morgan, and Barba Roja from 8/6/09. Both teams felt like real trios teams, and created an excellent match full of matwork, great trios teamwork, and very creative finishes to the segunda and tercera caidas. OJ -- Terribles Cerebros These guys were hands down the best trios in Mexico this year. They developed their act so that any of the three guys could be the lead-off guy, but it worked best when Dr. Cerebro started things off on the mat. Cerebro had arguably the best year of his career in 2009; I say arguably because it's not like we're actually in a position to know, but he was oustanding nonetheless. Cerebro's strong form meant that the Terribles Cerebros could keep Terry in the back pocket, which is really where you want a guy like Black Terry to be, to work that last exchange before everyone hits the ring for the finish. It's just a shame that we can't see IWRG's Thursday night tapings anymore, since everyone appears to work individually on this weekend show of theirs. Oddly enough, last year's clear cut winners, Los Officiales, looked remarkably better in individual matches this year. Best Promotion: RN -- IWRG Although CMLL Puebla also offered some good stuff, I have to give the nod to IWRG. It offered us the most interesting matches of the year, but at the same time, frustrated us since they could have done a much better job at so many other things. They had Freelance and they failed to do anything special with him. OJ -- IWRG IWRG offered the best matches this year, so they win this award, but anything good that comes out of this promotion is happening by accident. Best Rivalry: RN -- Terribles Cerebros vs. Dinastía Navarro One of the few feuds in 2009 that provided us with some great matwork AND great brawling. It also helped developed the most improved worker of 2009... OJ -- Terribles Cerebros vs. Dinastia Navarro This was a match-up that we got to see four times this year. Each match had its flaws and none of them were the MOTY candidate that they looked like on paper; in fact, the feud reminded me of Los Infernales vs. Los Intocables in that all of the matches were entertaining yet none of them were outstanding. Having said that, Terry vs. Navarro is the best thing in lucha right now. Bringing in Navarro's kids and having Terry's boys rumble with the Navarro family makes it even cooler and gives their on again/off again feud a trios base to work from. IWRG brought this match-up back in October, which we didn't get to see, but hopefully they get bored and run it again next year. Most Improved: RN -- Trauma II In 2008, Trauma II was working some nice holds but lacking confidence and exhibiting nervousness. He was struggling quite a bit, although he always exhibited a lot of effort. In 2009, throughout the Terribles Cerebros vs Dinastia Navarro rivalry, he grew in confidence and as a worker. He started showing incredible potential and finally started performing like what one would expect the son of Negro Navarro to perform like. His peak was the aforementioned MOTY and I hope he continues to grow as a worker. OJ -- Trauma II Yeah, Trauma II went from being this weedy guy who couldn't throw a strike very well and was frustrating to watch on the mat to a legit top ten guy this year. Most of this happened "off screen" since we were living on scraps, but it was an amazing transformation. The last time I saw him, I couldn't believe how confident he'd become. I kinda wonder how far he can go with that skinny frame of his, and right now he's idling since IWRG never really have anything for anybody to do, but he ought to sweep this in the actual Tapatía Awards.
-
Rumours that Bret Hart might return to the WWE...
ohtani's jacket replied to a topic in Pro Wrestling
Well, if Bret's account doesn't sound plausible then you already know who to believe. My question is why the need for Bret to admit that he's wrong? Of all the things Bret has bullshitted to himself about over the years, I don't think the Bad News Allen story is a major factor in whether Bret is warped or not. Surely there must be better examples from the book. C'mon, you don't know what Dynamite Kid's intentions were for including the story in his book. Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Dynamite spill some dirt on Bret in his book, which IIRC Bret didn't particularly appreciate at the time, only to turn around and confess in his own book that he wasn't the clean living, family guy he played on TV? The impression I always got was that DK was taking some none so subtle jabs at Bret, which isn't to say that DK was lying about the Bad News story, but I think it's in the book for a reason because it's not that interesting a story without Bret getting his knickers in a twist about it. Well, I think you'd need to read a book written by a historian. Unfortunately, most wrestling books are written by fans turned authors. Why do you believe this? I'm just curious as to how you decide one thing is plausible and another isn't. Well, that's true, but I think if I were Bret Hart I'd be pretty torn between moving on and being fucked off at all the things that happened to me even if some of them were my fault. At any rate, it'll be interesting to see what they do with Bret. Same reason why people will love Tiger Woods again when he returns. Anyone who's excited about Bret returning is more than likely someone who's always dreamed that Bret would have one last run with the WWE. Entertainment matters more than anything else in pro-wrestling. -
El Hijo del Santo vs. Felino, Mexican National Middleweight Championship, CMLL 4/5/96 This was a good match. It wasn't a mat classic like the Blue Panther vs. Atlantis Copa Victoria final, but it had a lot in common with how I think lucha should be wrestled these days, i.e., if you're not going to wrestle close to the canvas, you should at least be clever about how you put a match together. This started off on the mat, but didn't really go anywhere because Felino wasn't able to work from underneath at this point. It was fairly typical matwork in that the guy working underneath reversed the hold into one of his own, but Felino wasn't able to do anything interesting with the limbs he was fed. Santo for his part looked good, and established that the mat wasn't a place where Felino was going to gain an advantage; it was just a little disappointing in the sense that Santo is a guy who I'd like to see wrestle a bit more. Oftentimes, he'll work the spots he's known for and little else. Here, he stayed away from the mat spots he's known for and worked a pretty solid ground game, but Felino couldn't counter effectively and that meant that Santo didn't have to wrestle as much as he could have. In the end, they left the mat altogether. Usually, I hate it when workers leave the mat to finish a fall, but it made sense here from Felino's perspective as challenger. The only real success he was having was with his throws and thus he was better off on his feet. What I liked about the finish was that they put a little thought into it. Felino bumped to the outside, and scattered when Santo faked a tope. Santo wound up baseball sliding through the ropes to chase Felino, but the feline Casas was quicker than his opponent and caught him with a spinning heel kick as he re-entered the ring. This set-up Felino's crucifix powerbomb, which may seem like an annoying way to finish a fall's worth of matwork, but it was pretty clear that Felino needed to create distance between himself and his opponent, and strike from there. Felino is your atypical modern luchador in the sense that he's really an armdrag type guy. He likes to bump and roll and use the ropes, and it's his gimmick after all that he's the fastest luchador. Modern luchadores need to play to these strengths as well, since it's the only thing they know how to do; the trouble is, it really is the only thing they know how to do, so you don't get the same sort of grounding that Felino had here before he decided to chance his arm by charging at Santo, who we know could've avoided the spin kick and countered it into a pin. Felino didn't have a clue what he was doing in the second fall and looked like he was making it up as he went along, but again he had success with his throws, which gave Santo something to sell after taking a big back bump from the crucifix bomb. I didn't really mind that Felino looked clueless, because I can buy that the challenger isn't sure what to do next, but it was one of those weak bridging falls where the guy who ate the pinfall in the first caida reverses the tables in no time whatsoever. It was a nice belly-to-belly suplex off the top rope, though. Good impact and the most decisive throw of the match, so it had those things going for it, I suppose. If you're going to throw bombs, at least make them emphatic. The bridging fall I'm talking about is an important part of lucha singles matches in that it quickly undoes the work that was done in winning the first caida; I just thought the transition was a little weak, though psychology bookworms will note that Santo avoided the spinning heel kick and thus it was part of the tapestry of the match. Deciding the length of the fall is somewhat tricky. These days, the length of each fall is determined by television time, which is unfortunate, because the ability to lengthen or shorten a fall is how you build momentum for the third caida. If the falls are of equal length, then there's a predictablity about the third caida. Some might argue that there's always a predictability about the third caida, but shortened falls put the heat on whoever lost the fall. Nowdays, every fall is short, which is part of the ongoing problem of nothing really mattering anymore. Santo hit his Tope de Cristo to kick start the third fall (I think I got that right, that flying somersault headbutt to the outside that Santo likes to do); a caida that was filled with the type of inconsistent selling that people hate about lucha. Some people might question why they sell so much after hitting a move or kicking out of a nearfall only to spring to their feet for the next attempt, but the stagger sell on a pinfall cover is better than no pacing at all. It's always an indicator that the end is near and at least that creates some tension for the fans. Besides, Felino was the type of worker who liked to miss moves from the top, like his moonsault to canvas which led to the finish here. So long as both guys are running out of lives, so to speak, you can build a reasonably dramatic fall even if you're not selling that well. Santo took this match with a camel clutch that Felino sort of tried to fight, and while it wasn't a great match, I really felt that rhythm was the key here. Lucha matches these days don't seem to have rhythm. If you watch a match until it's conclusion and think back on how they got there, there doesn't seem to be many twists and turns along the way. Guys aren't gelling and forcing each other to go in different directions. It's pretty much a catching contest with dives in the first fall, dives in the second fall, and dives in the third fall. You can plug any set of luchadores in there and they'll follow the same pattern. This wasn't one of the better Santo/Felino matches, but it had a hell of a lot more scope than the average match today. Felino came up short for a reason, and how many matches can you say that about these days? Lucha is as arbitrary right now as the amount of unmaskings and hair cuts in IWRG. Felino was the type of worker that all the young guys want to be, and while I wouldn't call him a particularly great worker, he had much better matches than we're seeing today despite the fact that he looked clueless half the time, and the reason for that is because he could follow the rhythm of a match and time his stuff accordingly. If more workers could do that, then more stuff would be passable. Instead, people have lowered their standards dramatically to be able to enjoy present day CMLL or whatever else they're watching, and funnily enough Felino is a part of that now. Instead of asking where the good Felino matches are these days, it's more a case of where's a match with a minute of good Felino work while he does that stupid La Peste Negra crap. This title match from '96 is the type of match they should be able to put out with ease these days, but they can't. It's dumbfounding to me that so many of the basic skills have been lost in such a short span of time, but I guess you reap what you sow.
-
Ridiculous quotes from WO.com columnists
ohtani's jacket replied to sek69's topic in Megathread archive
Yeah, even I'll admit that Alverez quote is fucking stupid. -
Rumours that Bret Hart might return to the WWE...
ohtani's jacket replied to a topic in Pro Wrestling
Nobody remembers events exactly as they happened. In Bret's case, he's repeated the line about never injuring someone so many times that he clearly believes it never happened. Bad News came out and said that was bullshit. I'm more inclined to believe Bad News for the simple reason that it's highly unlikely that Bret never injured anyone, but all it really amounts to is two ex-wrestlers disagreeing over something that happened aeons ago. I can't understand why anyone would be interested in it unless they want proof of Bret talking shit, but at the end of the day you have to take one worker's word over the other. Bret might be lying, he might have conned himself into believing it never happened, he may even have been oblivious to what he did wrong at the time. For all we know, he didn't understand what was happening at the time and has continued to misunderstand it all these years. Perhaps he forgot about it until Bad News brought it up and struggled to make sense of something he thought he couldn't possibly have done. My point is that there's no way to know whether Bret is lying and knows damn well what happened all those years ago. Some people might apologise for the sake of it, but Bret's the type of guy who'll find an excuse for anything. As for sharing the same perspective, it's not going to happen if you're talking about Bret's reputation as a worker being brought into "disrepute." Bret prides himself on his work. He would never admit that he was anything less than what he claims to be. Well, is Dynamite Kid really the most trustworthy person for an honest account of what happened? Does it even matter whether he has any reason to lie? When it comes to wrestlers, a lot of people pick and choose what they want to believe. On one hand, they think wrestlers are carnies and all full of shit, but when a wrestler says something they buy suddenly we're supposed to believe these guys? People ought to read these books for entertainment purposes and not to learn the truth. I'm not saying Dynamite Kid is lying, but just because he said it in his book isn't any reason to believe it. Sure, Bret could've said that. The only problem is that it's Bret Hart we're talking about. I don't think you can write a book without bias, especially not an autobiography. What Roberts is saying is probably true, but it's easy to make observations about other people. If someone were to say something about Jake, chances are he'd get defensive. My point about your opinion was really in regard to Stu Hart: Okay, so Bret has thought a lot about his father, are you going to tell him that he's wrong? That he ought to think of his father as some kind of monster? Bret's opinion about his father is Bret's opinion and you just have to accept that. There's a difference between not agreeing with someone's opinion and out and out stating that they're being dishonest. Well, then it's a warped, nutty and extraordinarily egotistical book. If you want honesty, you got it right there. What does it matter if Bret has an ego anyway? If there was no ego, there would've been no Bret "the Hitman" Hart. He would've been some regular Joe in Canada. Ego is part of what drives people to succeed, but it also has an ugly side. Personally, I think Bret is a complicated guy. If he comes across as egotistical, I think it has a lot to do with his insecurities, but I don't wanna draw a lot of conclusions about some guy I don't know. Everybody makes mistakes in life. Bret's just played out in public or as close as the wrestling business comes to being "public." To say he was the master of his own demise simply plays into the Shakespearean tragedy thing that you don't think it's worthy of. He fucked up -- a few times, numerous times, whatever. Well, everything I say is obtuse, but let me try to explain myself -- has Bret really moved on? From all accounts, he sists at home watching WWE and critiquing the workers' performances, both his own relatives and other people. I think he'd kill to wrestle again, but he knows he can't do it physically or to the level or standard that he did before. He tried hard to stay away from the business, but his marriage to that younger woman fell apart and now he's hit a bit of a dead end. All of this is perfectly understandable. The fact is that other people never let him move on. If he reappears on RAW, hundreds of threads like this pop up. Wrestling journalists, or whatever you call them, ask him the same questions. People will never let him forget Montreal or Owen or any of that mess. I think they should let the guy be. If he embarrasses himself on this RAW stint or by working a match, so what... If it means that Vince "won" in the long run, so what... It's a childish business and people feed into it over and over again. I'm sure none of that made any sense, but does it really matter that Bret is coming back? Ask yourself that question. If you think it matters, then ask why? If the reason is because Bret is full of shit, ask yourself why it matters that Bret Hart is full of shit. All I want to know is why anyone would care. -
Rumours that Bret Hart might return to the WWE...
ohtani's jacket replied to a topic in Pro Wrestling
Frank, why do you expect two people to have the same recollection of events that happened thirty years ago, especially wnen it's a "he said/she said" point of contention? You're not going to get an honest third party account of events, and I don't see why it matters. Of course Bret has his own ideas and accounts of what happened in his life and career -- he's writing about himself. You're looking for way too much truth out of what is simply an autobiography. If Bret were to stop and argue every point from both sides he wouldn't be giving his own account of what happened. And his self-awareness or whatever you want to call it, is it supposed to match your opinion on what you read? The reader can draw their own conclusions. I read the Stu Hart part that you quoted and didn't think there was anything wrong with what he did to the kid who was trying to steal his car. Ultimately, he was a guy who both feared and respected his father. It's not an uncommon story. Maybe Bret could have been more introspective about how it shaped him, but who's to say he's ever thought about it that way? I'm sure Bret tried to protect his father in a way when he wrote this book, while not giving a fuck about people he didn't care for, but that's only natural too. It's like you're searching for the perfect book to give you accurate statements about something we'll never know the truth about. Bret has an enormous amount of pride and more than his share of issues, and you need to bear that in mind when you read his book. He's also been through a lot of shit I hope I never have to go through, so if he comes out of the whole thing seeming like he's fucked up then that's probably a pretty honest account of himself whether he intended to portray himself like that or not. The guy is struggling to figure out what to do with himself now that he can't wrestle anymore and if he writes a book or reappears on WWE TV (which he already did for his HOF induction anyway), who cares... Of course he misses the spotlight. He was perfectly happy in the role they had him playing up until 1995. The idea that he should get on with his life, while true, is easier said than done. -
Solar/Black Terry vs. Negro Navarro/Rambo
ohtani's jacket commented on ohtani's jacket's blog entry in Great Lucha
Yeah, that's a good point. Mind you, after watching that Navarro vs. Electroshock match that Phil found, it seems like Negro is only really interested in "I stretch you, you stretch me" matches these days. It's an easy way for him to work. I'd love to see him work a proper singles match for a change. -
Ridiculous quotes from WO.com columnists
ohtani's jacket replied to sek69's topic in Megathread archive
Speaking of people I've never head of, who is this Babinsack guy? Has he been around for a while? -
Ridiculous quotes from WO.com columnists
ohtani's jacket replied to sek69's topic in Megathread archive
I knew Damon but only because the 2004 Red Sox/Yankees series was the only time I got into baseball. -
Ridiculous quotes from WO.com columnists
ohtani's jacket replied to sek69's topic in Megathread archive
I see. -
Ridiculous quotes from WO.com columnists
ohtani's jacket replied to sek69's topic in Megathread archive
Yeah, but what's it got to do with WON columnists not knowing every facet of popular culture? -
Ridiculous quotes from WO.com columnists
ohtani's jacket replied to sek69's topic in Megathread archive
You also live in Japan. Where, it should be noted, to be a nationally recognized MMA fighter all it takes is to be black. I don't get it. -
Give it a shot. FAVOURITE WORKERS: FAVOURITE PROMOTIONS: FAVOURITE MATCHES: BEST THING ABOUT THIS DECADE: WORST THING ABOUT THIS DECADE:
-
Ridiculous quotes from WO.com columnists
ohtani's jacket replied to sek69's topic in Megathread archive
I don't know who half these people are either. -
Rumours that Bret Hart might return to the WWE...
ohtani's jacket replied to a topic in Pro Wrestling
Is Vince counter programming against Hogan's debut or booking towards Wrestlemania? -
Solar/Black Terry vs. Negro Navarro/Rambo, UWE, 10/17/09 This continued the trend of matches failing to be anything special, but it did feature some high end Solar vs. Negro Navarro. In all of their recent matches, they've shown that they're not content to rest on the laurels of local MCs hyping them up as maestros extraordinaire. The 10/5 Misioneros vs. Space Cadets match from Futrap de Nuevo Laredo and the 11/22 Solar/Platino/Perro Mastin vs. Negro Navarro/Fishman Jr/Arcanos trios from Arena Ray Alcantara were good examples of this. There's no doubt that these guys see themselves as the premier workers in lucha libre and the fact that they keep adding new crinkles to their work means that this match and the one from Alcantara were as good as anything they've done this decade. That's not the problem -- the problem is that this match-up is beginning to dominate everything else around it. In every Navarro vs. Solar match, you know that they're going to square off three times. A singles match within a tag or trios, basically. There's nothing wrong with having a predominant match-up in tags, especially when these guys are feuding over a title (the Salvador Americas Title to be precise), but the constant emphasis on Navarro vs. Solar reduces the other workers to bit-part players. That might be okay when they're working with locals, but not when it's Terry. You never wanna see Black Terry's role reduced. Ever. Sure, Terry had his ring time here with Rambo (who appears to have lost a lot of weight, incidently), and if we're being honest it wasn't one of Terry's better performances (more scrappy than good), but the fact that they didn't switch match-ups in the second caida was a major disappointment to me. There was barely any Terry/Navarro in this at all and the scraps that we did get was a transition for Navarro to leave the ring. A few years ago, when footage like this was scarce, this would've had MOTYC written all over it, but with a proliferation in lucha uploading in recent times, I've started to expect more. Despite having more Navarro footage available this year than any point in the decade, I still feel like we missed out on a large chunk of his work this year by not having IWRG's Thursday night tapings available. We never got to see any sort of finish to the Terribles Cerebros vs. Dinastía Navarro feud, so I was hoping for some killer Black Terry/Negro Navarro exchanges here to tie me over until the New Year. I don't mean to sound ungrateful to the good folk who make this stuff available to us, but it's frustrating when these workers who've been upholding the virtues of actual lucha libre let their match structure fall by the wayside. I don't expect a match where the falls overlap each other and tell a story. Sadly, that just doesn't happen in lucha anymore. Before I get too carried away, let me state that the third caida in this match is excellent and well worth watching for the awesome Navarro vs. Solar submission work -- nevertheless, they could've easily worked this a regular tag match instead of two separate matches. This was a two out of three falls match with more than enough time to do something special. Instead of concentrating on holds, they ought to be baiting each other. I'm not asking for some almighty struggle between good and evil, just a bit of needling. We've all seen Terry and Navarro beat on each other and we know that Solar and Navarro talk shit and mock each other. Ultimately, a bit of prickish behaviour would do these matches some good, because as much as I like Negro Navarro, his hard headed approach to wrestling and demands that his opponent be a man, he's not really forcing the issue with his in-ring behaviour, and I don't think these guys are doing lucha any great service by having matches with no swing in momentum. Navarro ought to have been champing at the bit to take on both these guys, but instead it was just another exhibition. There's a roadshow quality to these matches and they're really just another payday, but when the top workers in Mexico aren't trying then the entire country is full of lacklustre wrestling, which is a shame, because if these guys actually worked matches in an aggressive manner like Satanico used to we might see great matches for a change instead of a cool spot here and there.
-
Please, who wouldn't be defensive in the athletic/entertainment business? Most of us don't go around having our lives critiqued in minute detail. I think a fair few people would lose the plot if the shoe were on the other foot.
-
Freelance vs. Oficial Fierro, hair vs. hair, 11/29/09 This was more like it. Fierro came into the match with his arm bandaged up and Freelance spent most of the match going after the injury and telling the ref to fuck off. Nothing outstanding, but at least he did the whole una sopa de su propio chocolate schtick without any qualms. If anyone's going to be a Black Terry type figure in ten, fifteen years time, then it has to be Freelance, since he's one of the few young workers with any sort of clue. The ref screwed him over in the second caida when he blamed Freelance for an inadvertent ref bump, and I really liked how Freelance responded by upping the ante on the asskicking he was dishing out. Fierro did a nice job bumping and selling and managed to fend Freelance off so that Oficial 911 could soften him up on the outside. 911 gave Freelance a decent working over, while Yack stood around gaping... useless Pumpkin thing. This led to an awesome bit of chaos where Freelance pulled 911's mask off and Fierro took a nasty bump on a missed tope. This was a shockingly good bit of camera work by IWRG standards, as you could clearly see Fierro try to stop himself in mid-air to no avail. It wasn't quite up there with those Akira Nogami guard rail bumps, but it got a pop out of me. 911 returned to the scene and tried slapping some sense into Fierro before rolling him back into the ring. They danced a little more until Fierro caught Freelance off guard with a pinfall that really ought to have been a nearfall, cutting the match short somewhat. I dunno why they cut it off just as it was getting good, but I guess that's IWRG for you. On the whole, it was a pretty good match. The potential's definitely there to do this sort of match right if they give the tercera caida enough time. Whether they can still blade on TV is the real question.
-
RAMBO VS. VILLANO III, 6/14/01 RAMBO VS. VILLANO III, HAIR VS. HAIR, 6/21/01 Eight years is a long time to wait for your revenge, but that's how long it took José Luis Mendieta Rodríguez to finally meet up with senor Señor Mendoza again. PART ONE -- THE MANO A MANO RAGING NOODLES: Watching this I was thinking about how certain essentials and basics have been lost in pro wrestling matches as the years go by. There is nothing excessive here like most modern pro wrestling matches, but that's not to say this was a minimalist work. For example, the matwork was very well paced and the reversals were pulled off effortlessly. I guess one can say that both these guys were a bit limited physically at this point, I mean, I can only imagine what sort of injuries Rambo's had over his journeyman career. But that doesn't matter at all in this match, since both these guys are real workers and are very familiar with each other. The match they had in 1993 holds up remarkably better than a lot of the pimped AAA stuff of the early 1990s. Being a big fan of the AAA Mask vs Hair match, led me to be both excited about the potential here but also worried since it's hard to guess how a match is going to turn out quality wise. But I was really satisfied with what Villano III and Rambo pulled off here. There were two parts in this match, the first part being the matwork and it boiling over at the middle point into a great brawl. The matwork section had some great grappling action, and counters like Rambo headbutting (plenty of headbutt's in this bout) Villano's chest to break Villano's bridge. Another great moment was when both guys got tied up in each others' double headlock, and rolled all the way out to the arena floor and then all the way back to the ring without letting go of the hold. They looked like two old dogs, fighting their hearts out and never letting their grip of each other go. This leads to some more natural matwork, until they stand toe to toe and Villano III just lets loose and delivers a big ole headbutt and it's on. It's very difficult to pace a match that goes back and forth with both guys building towards a draw. But Villano III and Rambo managed to pull it off here and it didn't feel contrived at all. This didn't have the big bumps that Rambo did in the past, but Rambo still had some nice moments like his missed bottom turnbuckle silla and the way he bumped and sold Villano's knee counter to his big running splash. When Rambo missed his silla, Villano immediately went after Rambo's head with some biting and the juices started flowing. As Rambo starts coming back and is about to get his revenge by posting Villano, the video cuts off for a brief amount of time. It's a huge shame, but watching lucha libre, one gets pretty much used to stuff like that happening. But as the video comes back, both crimson faced guys are on their knees in a brilliant exchange of vicious headbutts and manly slaps. It was so awesome that I have hard time articulating how great that was. As they start building towards the finish, Rambo hits this great big senton that looked so crushing as Rambo is pretty big at this point. A little after that, we get another great exchange, this time with each guys taking turns biting each other and it ending with a Villano III punching combo. As I mentioned earlier, this ends in a draw and the best part about that is that it gave us another great match to look forward to. The post-match stuff might be the best part of this match, as both guys can't stop going after each other and their emotions are so passionate at this point. They are both wounded and hurt, selling the previous 15 minutes of action, but they are still trying to fuck each other up with headbutts, kicks, and punches. This was pretty great. OHTANI'S JACKET: Rambo was billed as the rudo in this feud, but I'm not buying that. There was something of Satanico Daniel Lopez in Mendoza that made him a natural rudo. Sure, he'd had the big unmasking with women crying and his family around him, but a leopard never changes its spots. There was something vain about the way Mendoza courted babyface attention, despite being the same shit as ever. It reminds me of an amusing story my father used to tell about how he could never enjoy the Precious Pupp cartoon as a child, because all he wanted as for someone to ram their big toe up the dog's arse. Besides, Mendoza was the prick who took Rambo's mask in the first place, then turned around and took his hair... A man doesn't forget those things. The reason I like watching older luchadores is because they simplify everything. Rambo was never the greatest worker in the world, but he wasn't the type to hide behind his limitations. Hiding behind his limitations would've meant he couldn't hang with the better workers, and that just wasn't Rodríguez' style. He was gonna give himself his best shot at winning, especially against a bastard like Mendoza. So while this had some awkward moments, particularly in the stand-up parts, you have to appreciate how simple and direct it was: get the takedown, grind your opponent's face into the mat, and when that doesn't work, start with the short arm punches. Mendoza had a straight-up advantage on the mat. His father was inarguably the greatest mat worker in lucha history, and Mendoza probably spent his entire childhood trying to take his father down and failing. He knew his way around the mat like a child knows its way around the nursery, but I was impressed with how Rambo hung in there and even managed to turn him on a few occasions. The fact that Rambo was such a big guy made this even better. The other thing I liked about this was how slow it was. OK, you can argue that Rambo was out of shape and selling because he was short of breath, but lucha is a style that should be worked at half-speed with a large amount of exaggeration. This was roughly the same length as younger workers' matches, but with far less moves, more exaggerated selling and a greater emphasis on desperation takedowns. Mendoza, being a tweener at best and the prick who started this fight, was the first to start with the biting, and didn't he look like an old Dracula? That carney bastard has been in so many of these matches that there was a real gleam in his eyes when Rambo started bleeding. The finish was great too with the beautifully timed missed splash, Rambo selling Villano's tucked knees as if it were a foul, the accidental and convincing looking double pin, and the tooth and nail brawling afterwards. Neither guy really got a piece of each other, so we got more -- PART TWO -- THE HAIR MATCH RAGING NOODLES: This was classy, well, as classy as a bloodbath between two middle aged grapplers could be. We get the big hair vs hair match really soon after the previous singles match and both of these veterans delivered. Unlike the match from the previous week, this was a 2 out of 3 falls encounter. At the very opening, Villano III gets on the microphone and asks Rambo for a gentleman's agreement to have a high class wrestling match without any blows. This leads the announcers to debate about this and if it's right to do for such a high stakes bout. So the first fall is a little over 5 minutes, and is some lovely matwork. I thought this was more impressive than the first match in the series, and had a rhythm that was easier to get into. It wasn't complex like El Satanico's best matwork, but it was simple matwork pulled off gracefully by two old masters. They each knew every little openings and countered at just the right time. They did some awesome struggling as well, like when Rambo was fighting for an armbar and Villano for a leglock. The first fall ends after Rambo starts to nail his butt butts, and locks in a submission hold for the win. Second fall is short, as Villano makes a quick comeback with a dropkick and a hurricarana roll at the :17 second mark. As the third fall beings, Rambo brings out the best staple of all the hair vs hair match, the biting and the announcer enthusiastically cries "This is what we've been waiting for gentlemen". One of the concerns about luchas de apuestas, is how well the workers are able to gel the violent nature of this type of match with their nearfall attempts. Nearfalls are probably the worst thing to have happen to pro wrestling over this decade, as a lot of workers can't help it and they start to have these superfluous long finishing stretches that have no flow. Villano and Rambo are too smart (and probably too physically limited) to even attempt a ridiculous amount of nearfalls. They keep it pretty simple in the third fall with Villano III doing an excellent job of selling a shoulder injury from the first fall and Rambo working him over. Villano III starts to make a great comeback, fighting on the top rope with Rambo. They are slowly working towards a super DDT spot, but the way it's set up with Villano III weakening him with biting and headbutts was a neat touch. Both guys are now working towards finishing each other, and in a great moment, Villano hits a clothesline and just clutches at his injured arm. After a crucifix pin, they start trading these great punches on the mat. A short while after this, Rambo botches something from the top, but Villano quickly covers that up and goes for a tirabuzón pinfall press. We get some great pinfall and submission attempts throughout the 3rd fall, including Rambo going back to his combination that finished off Villano previously but it failed him in this case. They start throwing some more bloody headbutts, and the doctor starts to check Rambo's cut. The doctor is teasing a stoppage as Rambo valiantly refuses, so as the match continues, it leads up to my favorite false finish of the match: a great sunset flip from the apron from Rambo. After a cool crossbody block by Rambo that gets reversed and some more headbutts, we get this classic visual of the referee dragging a bloody wreck of a Rambo to the doctor to check on his cut one more time. This might seem like a bullshit finish in some cases, but I loved it here. The way Rambo sold it and performed it here was great. The whole post-match stuff was classic stuff with lots of words being exchanged, more punches and headbutts being thrown, an outright refusal from Rambo concerning the hair shaving, and Villano III lecturing how he didn't want to remove his mask when Atlantis beat him but he was a man so he did it. This was all wrapped together in a tight package. These were two guys with a lot of pride on the line and a lot of hate in their history. They went out there, kept it simple, fought to a bloody pulp, carved themselves up and it was a manly example of how great lucha libre can be. OHTANI'S JACKET: A gentleman's agreement? Look at how Rambo stops to sign autographs for the kids. Mendoza blows them off and stares at his valet's ass. Mendoza's ploy to have Rambo mat wrestle blew up in his face when it became apparent that the General had close quarters combat training. This was the kind of fall you'd show people to determine whether they could ever get into lucha, because the holds were so loosely fed, the counters so slow and the finish so inexplicably lucha, that I could see a lot of people thinking it's ridiculous. For the aficionado, the rhythm was near perfect (as Raging Noodles pointed out), and I honestly didn't bat an eyelid when Rambo took the fall on a roll-up submission move. There's a thousand ways to win a fall in lucha libre, but what really matters is what comes next. Villano came out his corner with a drop kick that caught Rambo high in the chest, and we got a nice slow motion replay of the bump and roll, and Villano following up faster than Rambo could react. Seventeen seconds into round two and the one fall advantage was gone -- seems unfair, but the whole of lucha libre is predicated on what is fair and unfair. Rambo threw the gentleman's agreement out the window to start the third fall, as well he should considering how many times he'd lost to the guy. Villano's selling in the tercera was pretty great, as he ignored the cut that Rambo had opened and focused solely on the pain shooting through his arm. There was a great shot of Rambo working the joint while Mendoza bleed into his opposite arm, his face buried as the blood found a way to trickle and escape. Mendoza waved off the referee and Rambo released the hold, but not before punching his shoulder. When Mendoza surfaced, it was like a drowning man gasping for air. He staggered around with blood seeping into his left eye and shit smeared all over him from when he'd been in the hold. Rambo likely had visions of taking whatever hair Mendoza had left, but Mendoza is a cagey son of a bitch. This was a great fall for the reasons that Raging Noodles spelled out, but what really impressed me was how well they paced it in terms of Rambo catching up to Villano's groggy state. Villano didn't just pop up and start taking Rambo to the cleaners, it started with Rambo taking whiplash bumps that knocking the stuffing out of him and proceeded at the pace with which Rambo bled. I don't know how many times I've seen workers throw it all away from this position, but not here. There wasn't a single moment where it looked like they'd undo all the good they'd done, not even when Rambo overtook Villano in the fucked-up stakes. In fact, I'm struggling to recall a hair match with a tercera caida as well paced as this. The stoppages were exceptionally well done and they even had the confidence to throw in a comedy spot where the referee looked foolish on a double knockdown count. The finish was awesome: Rambo kept coming at Villano with punches, but it was all he could do to put one foot in front of the other. When Villano slipped free and Rambo kept walking towards the ropes and his cornerman, it was clear he was done. He didn't want the fight to be over, but like I said, lucha can be distinctly unfair. So there he was, hunched over and bleeding as much as any other worker in memory, and he had to suffer the indignity of Mendoza telling him to take it like man. And that's not the worst part -- Rambo lost the next hair match they had. Thwarted, again and again... That has to grate.
-
Pro-wrestlers don't get paid the kind of money that NFL players do, and even then a large number of NFL players wind up broke. It doesn't matter what opportunties you give a person, we're all perfectly capable of fucking up our lives. Even if you made pro-wrestling the safest environment it can be, people would still fuck up, just like you or I are capable of fucking up without the use of steroids or painkillers. The best you can do is provide deterrents, but at the end of the day it's up to the pro-wrestler to navigate their way through a wrestling career. Unfortunately, the difference between a pro-wrestler living to a ripe old age or dying young appears to be whether they're smart or not. The wrestlers themselves need wising up, because at the end of the day no promoter of any sort gives a shit about their talent. They're only interested in ringing as much cash out of you as they can until you expire. EDIT: And another thing, the fans have no bearing on what happens. Some dude downloading a wrestling match on his PC is not responsible for what happens in a wrestler's life, regardless of what comments or attitude he has about wrestling. To claim even partial responsibility is just a guilt trip.
-
Well, it always goes back to the same thing. Wrestling fans wanna have their cake and eat it too. I'm not talking about you specifically Dylan, but most fans want to enjoy the status quo without the guilt of knowing that someone else has died, so they'd never accept any radical change. Besides, it's all pie in the sky stuff unless the governments in Japan, Mexico and the US cared, which evidently they don't. Mind you, you have to wonder how much longer professional wrestling can actually last. It may be best if it just withers away and dies.