ohtani's jacket

Me too! PM'd you. -- Loss, 01/09

They didn't diss Jumbo as much as I recalled. Instead they made strange comments about Joshi.

I think I only submitted 50 wrestlers. I wanted to make sure I chose 50 great workers instead of filling up a ballot. Still don't like the top 10.

Ha, tell me about it. It used to drive me crazy when he was late with them.

Who was Herb Kunze's buddy who shat on Jumbo when they did their Wrestlemarinepaid tape watching?

At one point he called Chigusa the best women's wrestler of her era, then he said Jaguar was the greatest female wrestler of all time. The former surprised me a bit since I thought people were high on Asuka back then, but how much Jaguar was available back then? The same amount as Lorefice used to sell?

Another question -- when did Gordy's body shape change? 1991-92 Gordy looks nothing like '89 Gordy.

I don't know what the source of the story is. I first read about it on Jumbo's wikipedia page, then did a search for it. As far as I'm aware, it's mentioned in this: It's a Jumbo memorial magazine. The story is told differently, however, so it may be a myth. The most interesting page I found was a discussion about whether Jumbo really dominated that match, where they went back to the tape -- jdw style I guess the legend surrounding this match has grown with time.

Eh, I didn't make it up. It was an important part of the feud.

I'm not sure what you mean by that. It's a famous story, comes up almost any time someone mentions Jumbo vs. Choshu. Doesn't matter whether it was a work or if Choshu was really blown up, since it works on so many different levels. I'm surprised nobody told Dave about this.

I think Jeff did a pretty good job with the list. It reflects the era he wrote it in, and the DVDVR project will be dramatically different, but we have more footage available now than people had back then.

Jumbo was an interesting guy... kinda like a gentle giant who liked folk music and growing flowers. IIRC, he was a really small baby which is why his parents named him Tomomi, which is usually a girl's name in Japan. He grew up working on his family's farm & they were deadset against him being a professional wrestler. It's a shame that Dave didn't cover the Choshu invasion properly. There was a key moment in that feud after their 60 min draw in Osaka... Choshu was barely able to move afterwards and stayed in the locker room while Jumbo went drinking in Osaka... Choshu hated speaking to the press, but he told them simply and honestly that there was no way Jumbo could be beaten. As far as I know, this went a long way to convincing the NJPW fans who'd crossed over to AJPW shows that Jumbo was a great wrestler. Jumbo had a reputation of being the strongest wrestler in Japan, but someone who'd only show his strength when he got angry. This was the way Baba taught Jumbo an "ace" should work. I haven't seen that match, but apparently Choshu moves around a lot showing his "fighting spirit", while Jumbo stays pretty much in the centre of the ring. That's how they recall the match in Japan, anyway. Also, I dunno if this is true or not, but there seems to be two instances in the Jumbo vs. Misawa feud where Jumbo got legit pissed. One involved Misawa and the other involved Kawada. I think Jumbo wrote about this in his book. Kawada stiffed Jumbo in the eye and Jumbo lost his temper.

I kinda liked that idea of overtime and sudden death... It was like they fought each other to a stand still. Of course the finish was screwy, with the Tonya Harding gimmick they were doing at the time, but I'd peg it as the third best Sting/Vader after Superbrawl III and GAB '92.

I finally came round on Sting vs. Vader after watching their strap match again... Why is it that people rarely talk about their matches from '94? I thought the Fall Brawl match in particular was really good.

At least one of the Bull/Dump matches is on youtube... What surprised me was seeing JWP girls on Wrestle War '91.

Their careers are comparable to a certain extent... They broke into the business around the same time. Flair became NWA champion in '81, while Jumbo became the ace of AJPW in '83. Obviously, Flair worked the territories and traveled more, but Jumbo worked against most of the big names who toured Japan. All Japan was often in the position that Crockett was in regarding the popularity of Hogan/WWF and Inoki/NJPW. Jumbo/Tenryu is comparable to Flair/Steamboat. Jumbo vs. Misawa & Co. is comparable to Flair vs. Sting and Luger... In terms of differences, Jumbo's reigns as NWA International Heavyweight Championship and AWA champion, while considered prestigious in Japan, were not as highly regarded as the NWA World Heavyweight championship, which Baba had won... There was even kayfabe reasoning why Japanese wrestlers couldn't beat touring US champions... Jumbo never jumped to NJPW like Flair going to the WWF, likewise no major star jumped to Crockett like Choshu jumping to AJPW (not with the same impact)... On the flipside, Jumbo went into "enemy" territory for a 1990 Dome Show and was so over that he was declared the ace of all Japanese wrestling, which is a type of status Flair didn't have outside the territories and hardcore fans. Japan is a much smaller "territory", however. Baba also moved away from traditional US style booking towards something that loosely translates as King's Road craftsmanship, a new style of wrestling that Baba deemed necessary given the death of the territories and decline in touring American wrestlers. The comparison ends with Jumbo's illness. Outside of comparing their work, matches and patterns in their careers, we're a lot more privy to the inside working of the US business. What we know about Jumbo is probably less than 10% of what Japanese people might know. I've never read Dave's obit for Jumbo, but I'm curious about how much information is in it.

I watched the Flair/Regal, Marquis of Queensberry Cup earlier today. That has to be one of the most interesting things Flair did after returning from the WWF. Was Flair the booker at this point? Interesting gimmick to book yourself in.

Did Dave cover JWP back then? I read recently that Onita and Hamada were both involved in the pre-split JWP, but had a falling out over how it should be booked. Hamada's UWF was actually what he intended JWP to be.

But did Dave really blow it up into a talking point? Or was it a throwaway comment that he should've been more careful about making?

Watching WCW from 1993, it's amazing how much better wrestling there was on Worldwide/Saturday Night than on PPV or even at the Clash of the Champions.

Maybe so, but the information we have about Japanese wrestling is extremely limited. There's only so much you can surmise from watching tapes.

The idea that concussed wrestlers are gonna end up like Benoit is stretching it a bit. They're in more danger of ending up like Plum Mariko.

Thanks for all the responses. 1. How big of a WCW fan were you during the company's actual run? As a kid, my only exposure to WCW came in the form of Apter mags and some commercial tapes (a few Starrcades, the '89 PPVs, the first few Clashes and some Crockett, Great American Bash stuff)... New Zealand had been an NWA "territory," where the NWA champ toured, most notably Harley Race, who outdrew Muhammad Ali in 1979 for his fight against "High Chief" Peter Maivia (Auckland having a large Pacific Island community.) But that was dead by the time the WWF Super Stars boom happened... I seem to recall its promoter, Steve Rickard, trying to cash in on Super Stars, but nothing came of it. He did release some commercial tapes form his "private" collection, however. Mainly Hawaii stuff. My parents had gone to the weekly "On The Mat" TV tapings, so they were actually familiar with some of the guys who ended up in the WWF. WWF was a massive playground phenomenon in my country, which peaked, I guess, with the Ultimate Warrior/Hogan match at Wrestlemania VI. WCW had some appealing characters (Flair, Sting, the Road Warriors), but it didn't have the production values, so it came off second rate... And more importantly, it wasn't on TV. Later on, when I got back into wrestling, I used to watch WCW Worldwide every week on satellite. I enjoyed that a lot, but at heart I was a WWF fan. When WCW became a threat to WWF, particularly after Montreal, I was against WCW. 2. Are you a bigger fan of WCW now or then? Definitely now... Nowdays, I can enjoy WCW for the workers and the matches. There were always workers I enjoyed in WCW during the Monday Night Wars, but the whole WCW vs. WWF thing overshadowed that... Particularly when I first got the internet... Perhaps I used to go to the more "markish" boards, but I honestly believe internet wrestling discussion is better *now* then it was then. I remember the first Tuesday morning when WWF "won" the ratings battle after the Vince vs. Austin w/ one armed tied behind his back angle, it was like the Red Sox winning the World Series or something. 3. Best Year/Period for WCW Either 1989 or 1992. I'm tempted to go with 1989... Everything that year seemed hot, from the moment Gilbert introduced Steamboat as Mr.X through to Flair forcing Funk to quit... I was watching Flair/Sting vs. Slater/Muta the other day and that match has incredible heat for what was basically a Flair/Funk lead in. Luger had his awesome heel run, Muta was well protected for a guy who was only in the "territory" a short time, the tag division was consistently booked... It all came together on the Great American Bash PPV. For a long time, people regarded GAB '89 as the greatest PPV ever. WCW had better matches in '92, better PPVs and probably better TV too, but 1989 feels like it had bigger moments with a smaller roster. 4. Best World Heavyweight Title run Flair from late '88 to 1990 had the benefit of Ross' calls... The greatest NWA champion of them all, the man who dominated professional wrestling in the 80s, etc. Even when Flair was a heel, he'd tell the plane crash story and put over Flair as a wrestler and his reputation in the business... I think by the time Vader was champion, the belt didn't mean as much as it did in the late 80s. 5. Best United States Championship run I definitely agree that Luger had the best United States championship run... Luger was a great heel in '89. It wasn't hard to buy that he was arrogant & he even cut decent promos. As others have said, he worked harder at this point than any other time in his career, but I think it should be noted that his good matches were against guys who bumped well... I was really disappointed with the Hansen matches. Most of all, Ross put the US title over in every match. Almost as much as he put over a guy's football career. 6. Best Tag Team Championship run This is actually pretty difficult, as most teams had short runs. I think I'll go with Gordy & Williams, since they unified the NWA and WCW tag team titles. Regardless of how good they really were, they felt like a dominant tag team. The Steiners vs. Gordy & Williams still feels like a big deal to me. 7. Best Television Championship run I only caught the tail end of Austin's run. Watching Worldwide every week, the answer has to be Lord Steven Regal. 8. Best Cruiserweight Championship run I have no idea how the Malenko vs. Mysterio, Jr. feud holds up, but Malenko's three reigns during the first year of the WCW Cruiserweight champion seems like the best era for WCW crusierweights. Mysterio, Jr. holding the belt was a bigger deal, however. I'd say he was the best champion. 9. Best feud At the moment I'm digging Flair vs. Luger. They had four really strong matches from Starrcade '88 through to Clash of the Champions XII. Ross sold the whole thing really well -- constantly praising Luger for his accomplishments in this great sport of ours since winning rookie of the year, working up the dynamic of Flair having dominated the 80s and Luger potentially dominating the 90s... Nothing about these matches bothers me, not Luger's endless flexing, the Ric Flair Show, the Dusty finishes or the Horsemen beatdowns (who doesn't dig Flair, Arn and Windham beating up Luger?)... even Sting inadvertedly costing Luger the title worked for me. Flair vs. Luger was never a match-up I wanted to watch. I'd have rather watched Flair vs. Windham, Gordy or Ricky Morton, anything where the other guy was a good worker too. In fact, I always believed that the Flair of 1990 wasn't as good as the Flair of 1989. But that's not really the case. Flair's promos from before and after the cage match are classic. I know there's a Ric Flair Show, but damnit if I don't wanna see it every time. Having said that, I thought Flair really mixed it up against Luger. He even nailed his top rope move. 10. Most Underrated Feud I've only seen bits and pieces, but Team Rhodes vs. The Stud Stable is something I want to see more of. 11. Best Angle or Storyline Probably Hogan's heel turn, but my favourite angle is the post-match stuff from Wrestle War '89. Funk was amazing. 12. Most Underrated Angle or Storyline Hmm, nowdays New Zealand satellite TV shows the full RAW and Smackdown shows shortly after they air in the States (at least they used to, I've been gone for two years), but back in 1999 we got one hour digest versions of Nitro and RAW. 1999 was a shitty year for wrestling, but I remember watching the Nitro from Canada that was basically clipped to a pretty good Rey/Kidman vs. Malenko/Benoit tag and the Bret/Goldberg angle, where Bret wore the steel vest. That was a fucking great angle and a great hour of wrestling TV. 13. Best Booker Whoever was on the '89 team -- Flair, Jim Ross?? 14. Wrestler who had the most surprising run Luger had a shockingly good run of matches in 1989. 15. A worker they could have done more with Pillman and Dustin Rhodes come to mind. Austin, too, but he would've never become Stone Cold Steve Austin in WCW. Pillman and Rhodes were great, young workers who were WCW guys. Nowdays one is remembered for dying in the WWF and the other is more famous for being Goldust. On the flipside, WCW was a place where guys like Greg Valentine could get a new gig. 16. The worker who's most synonymnous with WCW for you Either Flair, Sting or Hogan. If Flair had never left, I'd say it was Flair outright. Hogan completely dominated the WCW landscape from '94. 17. The point where Flair got old I don't think he was ever the same after he came back from the WWF, but before that Herd making Flair cut his hair was awful. Fucking awful. The only ring WCW work I've seen from Flair in '91 is Wargames and the 4/91 grudge match against Pillman. His work there was much better than in the WWF. 18. Best Face Either Sting or Steamboat. The litmus test for any face should be how many cheesy angles or promos they can be involved in and still remain over. I was really impressed that Pillman could be over with El Gigante as his best friend. 19. Best Heel Tempted to go with Flair and the Horsemen, Windham or Terry Funk, but Vader was on an absolute rampage when I first got into Worldwide. 20. Most Underrated Face Dustin Rhodes. Less so after Dustin of the Day, which was a huge eye opener, but still Dustin. 21. Most Underrated Heel Arn Anderson. I was gonna say Larry Zybszko, but his best stuff was partnered with Arn. Arn's always been pretty loved, but I don't think people appreciate what a great performer he was. 22. The worker who was most effective whether they were heel or face Windham. I dunno why any face would trust Windham, but he was great in equal measures whether he was a heel or face. 23. A worker who turned (heel or face) too many times Flair, Windham, Luger, the Giant... The faces were dumb to trust these guys. 24. Favourite Commentating Pairing Ventura and Ross. Jesse worked less of a heel commentator gimmick in WCW and he'd drop all this wrestling history... I loved it when his old vendetta against Steamboat would creep into the commentary. Schiavone is way less annoying these days. I actually feel a bit sorry for Tony. 25. Lasting Memory of WCW It was a place where good workers could wrestle good matches, but they couldn't book angles/feuds anywhere near as well as WWF.