ohtani's jacket

I've mostly watched stuff from '89-92 & anything I can find from before then. Recently I've been interested in lucha from this decade, so 2000 onwards. I've seen Atlantis/Villano III, the Santo/Panther matches, the Negro Navarro stuff & some of the bigger CMLL matches from 2005-07.

CMLL 2007 Mistico vs. Averno, 1/6/07 Mistico vs. Perro Aguayo Jr, 3/2/07 Mistico vs . Dr Wagner Jr, 7/27/07 The formula for Mistico's big matches in 2007 seemed to involve the rudo dominating for long stretches, Mistico taking a beating, having his mask torn or ripped off and even blading. The matches were longer and there was a lot of heat. This was effective against Perro and Wagner, since Perro has the offence and gumption to do nasty things to Mistico and his mascot buddy & Wagner is a master at getting heat. Perro loves himself a little too much, but he has a great shit-eating grin and -- when it comes down to it -- a vicious streak. Wagner did all of a dozen moves in their match, but had the crowd eating from his palm. There's a lot to be said for letting heat build. Mistico sold a lot & his offence was limited to comebacks. Whether he blew stuff off, I dunno. He was roughed up pretty good. I probably enjoyed these Mistico matches more than his previous stuff, though I question how long you can book him like this for. I can't fault the effort in the Averno/Mistico match. They're trying hard to build a great rivalry. They varied the pace and there was a long third fall, but Mistico burnt through his offence. Averno's rudo spots are weak and I still think he matches Mistico's pace too much. One of Mistico's biggest problems is that apart from kicks and the arm submission almost all of his offence is off the ropes, which would be OK if it were used to end a fall or in a third fall diving sequence, but in Mistico's case it's the whole match. He really needs to develop some so-called "mid-range" offence and save his flying for later. I'm sure I'll remember Ciclon Rameriz' tope for longer than all the spots Mistico did in this match & that's bad because Mistico is burning himself out on so many levels.

Javier Cruz vs. Ciclón Ramírez, hair vs. hair, 6/10/94 Javier Cruz was a fucking great worker. As a technico, he could play a fired up babyface without ever being a dick about it. He'd just act pissed the whole time. As a rudo, he was a dick without being showy about it. Man do I love the black studded glove and the whole scattered wasteland of 1994 CMLL. As for Ciclon Ramirez, well life changes after you drop the mask. He was a great flyer in his day, here he's trying to make his way as a latter day Sangre Chicana & he does a great fucking job of it. He still has an insane tope (one of the best ever, as far as I can tell), but you've gotta make your living a different way after you unmask and his brawling is great. The whole thing is great. Even the fuzzy reception is great. Cruz does a splendid blade job & this is as good a hair match as any other I've seen. Cruz isn't the rudo that an MS-1 or Pirata Morgan was, and Ramirez is not at the level of Chicana or El Dandy (to quote two of the great hair matches), but man do they make it worthwhile.

Rayo de Jalisco Jr. vs. Cien Caras, mask vs. mask, 9/21/90 This has got to be one of my favourite lucha matches of all time. I don't know if either guy could ever work; the stuff they do here is really simple, but the heat is amazing. One of the greatest things about lucha is that two 40 year old guys can have a mainevent with this much at stake. Where losing the mask really means something. The match is beautifully laid out... Caras attacks Rayo on his way to the ring, smashing him over the head with a guitar & from there it's just heat building. Slow, methodical rudo work & crowd inspired comebacks from the technico. Great lucha. And the finish is fantastic -- it comes from nowhere & may not have been an actual three count, but it means the rudo has to unmask & there's a fucking swarm of photographers jumping over each other's backs. Caras has one of the great unmaskings, as he simply refuses to take his mask off & they end up brawling while the photographers scurry for their lives. Magic.

CMLL 2006 El Hijo del Santo/La Mascara vs. Blue Panther/Tarzan Boy, 1/1/06 Mistico/Negros Casas vs. Averno/Mephisto, 4/14/06 El Hijo del Santo/Negro Casas/Mistico vs. Atlantis/Black Warrior/Ultimo Guerrero, 8/04/2006 El Hijo del Santo vs Perro Aguayo Jr, 8/25/06 Black Warrior vs. Mistico, mask vs. mask, 9/29/06 Negro Navarro/Villano 4/Villano 5 v. Dos Caras Jr./Heavy Metal/Solar 1, AULL 11/2/06 While searching for this stuff, I kept reading that CMLL didn't have a good year in 2006. Still, I liked these better than the matches from 2005. The Mistico/Casas tag was really good... Probably the best match I've seen in the new style. It helped that the third fall was long & they worked a bit of story into it. It was obvious to all and sundry who was gonna win, but lucha is satisfying like that. Personally I've had a problem with Casas' offence since the mid-90s onwards & I'd love for Averno and Mephisto to have more rudo shtick, but this was great work even if it was aping New Japan juniors. The Mistico/BW match was also a perfectly acceptable two out of three falls sprint. I think I saw an edited version, but it doesn't matter. As important as masks are in Mexican wrestling culture, the majority of mask vs. mask matches are amazingly shitty, and since the thought of Black Warrior being unmasked leaves me unmoved, this sufficed. The Santo/Panther tag was weak... Panther's always been a better worker than Santo, IMO, and showed it again in his brief exchanges with La Mascara. Santo's always been predictable, he just gets away with it because even predictable Santo is excellent. As far as being a big match singles worker, he can still bring it in spades. The match with Perro wasn't as good as their match from 2004, but it was good stuff. I kinda get the impression that Perro thinks WWE is cool, though. Once again, Negro Navarro shows up and is part of a really great, old school trios match. In a sense it was bread and butter stuff, and I was just excited because it built in a way I'm familiar with, but an entire fall of mat wrestling in the latter part of this decade is like mana. It really is.

CMLL 2005 Mistico vs. El Averno, 2/11/05 Mistico vs. Ultimo Guerrero, 2/25/05 Dr. Wagner Jr./Mistico vs. Ultimo Guerrero/Rey Bucanero, 3/12/05 Mistico vs. Perro Aguayo Jr, 5/13/05 El Hijo del Santo/Mistico/Dr. Wagner Jr. vs. Ultimo Guerrero/Averno/Mephisto, 8/26/05 Perro Aguayo Jr, Mr Aguila, Halloween & Damian 666 vs. Pierroth, Apolo Dantes, Mascara 2000 & Universo 2000, 10/14/05 El Hijo del Santo vs. Atlantis, 11/05/05 Halloween vs. Universo 2000, hair vs. hair, 12/02/05 El Hijo del Santo/Negro Casas vs. Averno/Mistico, 12/16/05 El Texano, Negro Navarro & El Signo vs. Super Astro, Ultraman & Solar, IWRG, 02/10/05 OK, so I idolise late 80s-early 90s CMLL and pretty much anything from before then, with this being my first real foray into recent lucha. It's not the lucha I know, so let's see if I can get to grips with it. Might as well start with Mistico... I wasn't expecting him to be a great worker, so it wasn't much of a surprise... His timing is good & he's unbelievably quick. Gets amazing height. What he really lacks is poise. Back in the days of matwork, technicos would string together a sequence that left the rudos reeling... A rudo would back himself to go mano a mano, they'd trade holds and then -- like pulling a rabbit from a hat -- that show of superior technique... I can hardly remember anything about Mistico vs. Averno, except that the rudo worked at the pace of the technico, matching him hold for hold. I could hardly tell you who upstaged whom, where, what, when... It was all a blur. Shortened matches have really upped the pace. I suppose we're beyond the point where an armbar is magnifico, but Mistico needs to learn rhythm; how to work those spots so they really mean something. If you look at 1984 Atlantis he hardly had it together, but he ended up building a magnificent technico career out of the same repeated spots. It's all about poise. The Mistico/UG match accomplished a fair bit in 10 minutes & the Perro match was quite good. I don't buy into Mistico as an underdog, but he's a decent technico (which isn't easy) & has the crowd behind him. The act just wears a bit thin after a while. The best lucha always feels like improv, even when it's not. That's something heel Atlantis struggles with. Long serving, excellent technico, but sucks as a rudo. Wagner, on the other hand, is ungodly charismatic. Wagner never used to be this good, now it feels like everything he does is off the cuff. He's gotta be my favourite guy in Mexico. The Perros/Capos stuff was OK. The hair vs. hair match was... listless. I'm all for broken down rudos working hair matches, so long as they're actually brawling. I haven't really cared for the Santo/Casas team since they were feuding with Bestia Salvaje & Scorpio, Jr. I don't like the way they bought into the new workrate style... Averno and Mephisto have cool entrances and aren't bad workers, but as rudos they're workrate machines & sadly recyclable. Don't see how they're different from Los Guerreros del Infierno, to be honest. The Los Misioneros de la Muerte trios is still the best match I've seen from 2005. Once a year Negro Navarro shows up on tape to remind us what real lucha is like.

I'm unclear here. You mention the move to New Japan juniors ish style and don't know what you're looking for. Are you looking for who works that style best or who still figures out how to work lucha within this context? The latter. Of course I could be wrong, but it seems like there's less playing to the crowd, less matwork and submissions. In CMLL anyway.

So, I was watching El Dandy vs. Black Warrior, 10/96 the other day, and it seemed to me that this was closer to modern lucha than the late 80s/early 90s stuff... Less "lucha" and more like a juniors match. The impression I've gotten from modern lucha is that it's been shortened while at the same time upping the workrate. Can anybody pinpoint when this change began to happen? And of the newer guys who've been notable over the past decade -- Mr Niebla, Shocker, Ultimo Guerrero, Rey Bucanero, Perro Aguayo Jr., Mistico, El Averno & whoever I'm missing -- who would you say has been the best & why?

Having watched RAW and Smackdown a bit over the past few weeks, I've been rather shocked by the drop in production values, at least in their television. I was watching an Edge/Chavo vs. Punk/Mysterio, Jr. match and there was a spot where Mysterio, Jr. did a moonsault, IIRC, to Edge on the outside... I swear they used four or five shots to show this, when really it's a two shot sequence, three at the most. And it wasn't as though it cut well, either. It was incredibly jarring. Then, for some reason, the replay showed the whole move in one shot. I thought Smackdown was taped these days? Whoever edits the WWE these days is trigger happy. The camera is too close in to begin with, but they cut on EVERY bump. And they have no sense of rhythm. There was one episode where Finlay's head was being crushed by the Great Khali, as the midget looked on helplessly and they cut it all to shit... Instead of holding on a shot, they cross cut. The shots didn't match, so Hornswoggle's position in the frame changed three times, as though he was moving up and down the apron. Sometimes they show stuff from the RAW vault. Even the old logos look more inspired. Is McMahon sick of churning out TV or something? Cutting back? Lack of competition?

I've been casually watching RAW over the past few weeks and something about Jericho doesn't work... In the stuff they showed from his promotional visit to Japan, he came across as charismatic, but on the shows... I thought the Jericho/JBL angle was old school and potentially quite good, but Jericho can't cut a face promo and can't brawl. He seems to lack that extra gear.

Reminds me of that match he had with Shamrock in '99 when he went all shooty.

Seems strange to have a heel go over at a major show like Wrestlemania.

I can't wait til it gets to Wrestlemania. Dave might be all excited about the gate, but that was a truly boring show. Dave was really high on Owen. An Owen/Flair match would've been interesting. As for fans leaving a Flair/Windham match seven minutes in... I guess that says something about why US pro-wrestling is such crap these days. Props for Nagahori in the women's top 20. I wonder if Dave remembers who Nagahori was these days.

Sayama did a fantastic job with the Tiger Mask gimmick... Yeah, almost every opponent he wrestled was better, but that meant we got to see a hoard of great workers. Can't complain.

WWE isn't slick. It's made on the fly. They don't even use matching shots half the time. CMLL's camera work & editing is way better. They get shots that WWE only come up with in post.

RAW was on while I was typing my reply... None of the production values impressed me, from the production design to the backstage skits to the camera work. The CMLL I aaw from last year had better production.

(1) What do you ultimately think Vince McMahon will most be remembered for as a promoter? National and international expansion, as well as surviving each scandal, crisis and downturn in business. (2) What do you think is the most important positive change that has come from the WWE vision of what pro wrestling is? The marketing and promoting of wrestlers. (3) What do you think is the most important negative change that has come from the WWE vision of what pro wrestling is? Steroids. (4) What is something that you have always felt WWE does well that they don't get enough credit for? Their booking of angles and long running feuds. (5) What is something that you have always felt WWE does horribly that they don't get enough criticism for? I personally think their production values are crap. (6) Overall, do you think most people are fair when discussing WWE, or do you think people tended to be blinded -- either by fanboyism or hatred? Eh, it's all reactionary. Even the people trying to be fair are reacting to unfair criticism. (7) What match would you point to as the match that most defines the WWE version of wrestling? It depends on the era, since the style has changed numerous times... In general, I think matches like Hogan/Andre, Hogan/Warrior, Bret/Shawn and Austin/Rock define the WWF booking philosophy. (8) Could the WWF have had their initial success without Hulk Hogan? Why or why not? It's unlikely they could've achieved national (let alone international) expansion without Hogan. Having said that, the expansion was well booked and promoted and they had a very good roster. (9) Could the WWF have been more financially successful in the post-Hogan, pre-Austin time period with different people on top? Why or why not? Not really. It's a simple equation, what goes up must come down. (10) Who do you think was a bigger star at their peak -- Hulk Hogan or Steve Austin? Hogan. (11) What do you think is Vince McMahon's greatest accomplishment as a promoter? Surviving and making money. (12) What do you think was the greatest contributing factor to WCW overtaking the WWF from 1995-1998? Bischoff's aggressiveness in doing unto Vince what Vince had done to the territories. (13) What do you think was the greatest contributing factor to the WWF overtaking WCW in 1998? Vince vs. Austin being a hotter angle than the NWO. It really began with WCW botching Starrcade '97 and Tyson's appearances getting media play. WM 14 was generally seen as a satisfying show, and the RAW where Austin was supposed to fight Vince with one hand tied behind his back was the clincher. (14) Which world champion was the best in terms of ring work and why? Probably Bret. (15) Which world champion do you think meant most to the company? Hogan. (16) Which world champion had the worst run? Nash in '95. (17) What do you consider the high point in WWF or WWE history? Wrestlemania III. (18) What do you consider the absolute low point in WWF or WWE history? 1995. (19) Looking at things from their point of view, why do you think WWE frowns on employees being big wrestling fans? From a booking/writing standpoint, they wouldn't know how to make money. From a personnel standpoint, they'd have a hard time getting their work done. Information leaks might be a risk too. (20) Do you think the WWF has ever done a good job at booking tag teams in a meaningful way? If so, what time period? In the late 80s, sure. (21) What is the best non-main event feud the company has ever produced and why? Savage/Steamboat, Savage/Roberts, Virgil/Dibiase, Bret/Owen. (22) What is the worst main event level feud the company has ever produced and why? Undertaker/Undertaker, Undertaker/Yokozuna, Diesel/Mabel. (23) What do you think was the single biggest contributing factor that caused the end of the 1998-2001 boom? A boom can't continue forever. It has to stop somewhere. Speaking as someone who stopped watching in 2001, the product simply became boring. (25) Where do you think they'll be in five years? Depends on whether Vince is retired/alive or whether someone gets real hot.

I don't see how ROH can't run a spot show in Tokyo... They have TV, they're covered in whatever mags are left and they have NOAH's backing. It shouldn't be that difficult.

Eh, that might be true, but Tateno's weight often ballooned in Japan too.

That Tully/Windham match was really good as far as I remember. Funny how fans today would be itching to discover a 27 minute Tully/Windham match. So much for the UWF closing shop or Dump continuing wrestling... Dump became a comedian, TV talent and actress. Omori was her comedian partner for a while. Asuka tried to lure her out of retirement, but she started a family instead. The Matsunagas didn't cope very well with this difficult period Dave is talking about & 1989 saw a number of girls run away from the dojo due to bullying.