ohtani's jacket

Found this by accident, Black Cat talking about Mexico and Japan -- http://kuroneko.milkcafe.to/history.html

Can't really see a case for Hamada to be honest. Not sure if he was any more influential than Kotetsu Yamamoto or Fujiwara.

Mexico is a bit iffy since we don't have much TV. On the surface, guys like Satanico, MS-1, Lizmark, Los Brazos, Villanos all made the transition, with guys like Santo, Casas, El Dandy, Blue Panther, Atlantis, Pirata Morgan all peaking in the early 90s. Yet a lot of these guys didn't survive UWA folding or AAA taking over CMLL in popularity. Based on my limited knowledge, I assume the Toreo draws suffered the most, particularly Canek and Perro Sr. Fishman didn't seem to adapt well as a worker, but that might be self-inflicted. Emilio Charles, Jr. dropped off quickly in the 90s. Can't say too much about Herodes or Sangre Chicana since the 80s footage is so limited. Rayo seemed to do pretty well for himself in the 90s. Not sure about Cien Caras. I guess Mil Máscaras made money, which is what it's all about.

Cicloncito Ramirez, Pequeño Cochisse, Platita & Pequeño Sayama vs. Damiancito el Guerrero, Fierito, Tritoncito & Guerrerito del Futuro This was a Cibernetico at the end of '97, where the winner earned the right to wrestle in a "regular" tag match. If you read this blog, then you probably know who won. Bit of a shame really. There was never any guarantee of seeing the Minis on TV, but this was it for one of the best divisions anywhere in wrestling. There were classics to be had for the CMLL Mini Estrellas Title, but we never did get that Damiancito el Guerrero/Cicloncito Ramirez rematch. I'm happy to report that they went out in style. It wasn't a classic or anything, but it was quality wrestling and the kind of beautiful exchanges that you rarely see at Arena Coliseo anymore.

I finally took advantage of the pinned thread in this forum and starting renting PRIDE DVDs again. I'm backtracking over the stuff I already watched back in 2000, then I'll probably follow the advice of TheShawshankRudotion.

Japan Jumbo is an obvious choice, since the early 90s was the peak of his reputation in Japan as a worker and star. Not sure how much longer he could've continued as a top worker, but he clearly adapted from the late 80s onwards. Hansen adapted well, but some credit has to go to the improvement in the younger AJPW guys as workers. Tenryu did a pretty great job of managing his bookings in the 90s. Perhaps the most successful freelancer in the history of Japanese pro-wrestling? Regardless of what you think of him as a worker, he pretty much delivered in a big match setting. Hase did a good job switching to a heavier weight class, which is different from an 80s worker peaking in the 90s. Choshu booked himself well, I guess. Maeda was still a draw throughout most of the 90s, but his knees were gone by the end of 1990. Fujiwara was always an awesome worker, so I guess Takada takes the crown for becoming a major star in the mid-90s. Gran Hamada is a bit like Fujiwara in that he was always a talented worker, but I guess he deserves credit for keeping up with a style he more or less pushed through. Bull Nakano deserves some credit for adapting to AJW's circumstances after '88-89 and creating a new character. Devil Masami became a great working vet, without having to be the top star of her own promotion. On the negative side, Fujinami really struggled in the 90s and Choshu's Army, though they were old, couldn't remain relevant. I thought Chigusa Nagayo and Lioness Asuka struggled upon their return, though they had drawing clout. Jaguar was OK, but not truly great.

Which workers, managers, commentators, etc. do you guys think survived the switch from the 80s to the 90s? Who were most notably left behind?

Satanico vs. El Dandy, hair vs. hair, 9/18/92 (59th Anniversary Show) This was the third time these guys had squared off in as many years and not a match the fans wanted to see. Satanico and El Dandy were great workers, so there were enough touches to make it enjoyable, but it wasn't as good as their previous matches -- which weren't the greatest to begin with. It was kinda in keeping with Dandy's matches against Bestia Salvaje (9/4) and La Fiera (11/27), two competent rudos with whom Dandy had flat performances. I guess when it comes to something like Dandy vs. Casas, it's easier to "create," since there's so much heat to work with. When folks get restless, it becomes harder to get the reaction you want, particularly when it's a match people don't want to see again. Satanico was more aggressive than their past meetings, talking a lot and nailing Dandy with the kind of headbutts that real wrestling fans appreciate. He extracted a good looking bladejob from Dandy's skull & was generally nefarious. It was Dandy's performance that was a little on the weak side. The thing about technico Dandy is that you still expect him to be an asskicker. Here he was too much of a babyface. There was an awesome punching exchange that led to one mother of a DDT, but not enough brawling. One minute he's bleeding everywhere, the next minute he's celebrating like he won the football in extra time. The finish was not cool. Satanico did one of the best "cheat to win" victory celebrations I've ever seen, only for some Tunney type to overrule it. So Dandy got a restart. If it was scored on points, Satanico would've won for shoving Atlantis the fuck out of the way on the outside. El Dandy was beginning to slide here, nearing the end of his great run.

El Hijo del Santo vs. El Averno, 10/22/04 (WWA World Welterweight Championship) Man, Lucha has lost its charm. After watching raw, grainy footage of Santo and Espanto Jr, this came across as pretty damn lifeless. I was kinda hoping that Averno would prove himself to be more than a foil, but he took little or no initiative in the matwork and despite Santo still being pretty slick, this was just a series of spots. It's all neatly packaged, but I saw better work on the Todos X el Todos show & those guys are truly ancient.

You can't paint a picture of what these people are really like if you can't be sure that the stories were told as they actually happened. At the end of the day, Ring of Hell is Matt's take on a business he hates, weaved together in a narrative of Chris Benoit's life and career. There's more of Matt's voice in the book that anyone else's and that was the most disappointing aspect for me. In any half-way decent documentary or non-fiction book I've seen or read, both sides have been represented, which gives us the opportunity to judge for ourselves. Ring of Hell lacked the multiple perspectives that make that possible. It's not a matter of getting guys to go on record who disagree with certain claims, it's about including all of the information possible, instead of trying to drive home a point. I do think he tried to be fair, but I also think he omitted a lot of stuff in an attempt to connect A with B. In writing the book (or perhaps in researching it), it appears that Matt found a series of correlations between events in Benoit's life, correlations that had wider implications for the wrestling business as a whole. That's fair enough. My question is -- did he test his own theory? Was there any point where he refused to let counter evidence get in the way of a good story? Given he only had a month's deadline, I think they're valid questions. People who are not wrestling fans or only very casual ones don't know what's a crock and what's not, therefore the author's voice is the most persuassive. Perhaps you're right that dyed in the wool fans would never listen to what the book has to say, but in refusing to believe any old story it also means they're not easily worked.

The point is to appeal to the average reader, not guys who already know the stories and get a kick out of reading them in print. The fact that the biggest fans of the book are guys who already knew the stories and like the way Matt tells them is a pretty clear indicator of where he may have gone wrong. I don't know what Matt's intentions were exactly, but the bigger challenge was winning over the skeptics or convincing dyed in the wool fans of pro-wrestling's problems. It's not a matter of whether it was entertaining or not (which it was, quite frankly), it's a matter of whether it was as good a piece of journalism as it could have been. Embelishing or exaggerating stories isn't particularly helpful in regards to the truth. It only leads to further exaggeration or embelishment. The journalist's job is to cut through all the lies with a scalpel, not print enough stories until some of it sticks.

The tone isn't an issue. That's implicit in the writing style. In writing "with all the zeal of a back alley surgeon," there was a lot of exaggeration for effect. In fairness to Matt, a lot of people have exaggerated the claims that the book makes, but still I think he should've been more careful.

I don't think it's possible to really view wrestling in this way anymore. More and more my respect goes to those who have successfully negotiated their way through a pro-wrestling career.

The problems with the book have a lot to do with Matt's preconceived notions about the business and the role it played. I don't think he fully explored the topic. Instead he span a narrative around what he believed to be true, using material when it suited him & omitting stuff when it didn't fit. Hence it hasn't been that persuasive with people who don't share the same position.

What did Dave say about the book?

Villano III vs Negro Casas (IWRG 11-1-07) Another decent sort of a match. Villano III is in his late 50s and kinda creaks around the ring, but he still looks like he could break a guy in half if he wanted to. Casas has always been good at hiding his age, partly out of vanity (one would assume.) Here he's wrestling a guy who's at least ten years older than him, so he doesn't have to hide it so much, but he kinda wrestles what's in front of him, which I thought was decent of him. The match is probably too slow to get a watch out of most people, and some might question what Villano III is doing looking for bookings anymore, but there's a couple of times (like when they throw in a headbutt) where you can kinda appreciate how many wars these guys have been through. Would've liked it to have been more explosive, or perhaps more mat based, but I guess it's difficult to rev up the engine on this type of circuit.

Kahos/El Engendro vs. El Celestial/El Coloso, 10/3/92, UWA Fun match. The matwork was pretty simple, and perhaps a bit slow, but I dug the selling points. Engendro gives a great burlesque performance. The trick to that, of course, is being an asskicker after the comedy spots, which Engendro most certainly is. There's about five or six genuine laughs, which is pretty good for an undercard match. Engendro lords over proceedings, working the refs, crowd and his opponents, but he exits the match in spectacular fashion... Wiped out by a tope, never to be seen from again. Nice way to bow out.

El Hijo del Santo vs. Negro Casas, 5/17/91, Tijuana (handheld) Not a great match compared to the matches Santo had against Brazo de Oro and Espanto Jr, or the stuff Casas was doing with El Dandy a year later, but it had the usual awesome atmosphere, with local kids climbing all over the ring and plenty of activity in the audience. One kid in particular leads a pretty rousing ovation at the end, while the other kids bang on the apron. Once again, the handheld gives you a feel for what a real lucha experience is like. A lot of people struggle with the logic behind lucha, but there's a flow to it & crowds understand this. Ostensibly, lucha matwork doesn't mean much since holds don't build to submissions in a logical manner as perhaps they do in other styles, but holds and counters are important. There's an ebb and flow to them & you can see from the tape that the crowd knows that countering a counter is a key part of the mental game. Countering a counter won't lead to a submission (usually). but at the next break, that wrestler is one up in the mental stakes. And those small battles for one-upmanship usually shape the way a fall is decided. So, you can see the crowd pop for those moments. A guy in the front row is pretty into it. I love a crowd who "know the score", since they have a bit of a say in momentum, and while this wasn't a great match, I would've been happy to be there.

Negro Navarro/El Signo/Black Power vs. Silver King/El Texano/El Gran Hamada - 10/17/92, UWA This wasn't as awesome as it sounds, but it did make me lament that AAA became popular & UWA died out. (There's perfectly good reasons why that happened, but I'll take vets working a style I like. Even if it's non-drawing Misioneros w/ a bum partner.) Black Power's a third stringer, but the rest of these guys could work. There's something reassuring about that in this day and age. The physicality surprised me a bit. Hard, fast exchanges. Committed bumps. It was Misioneros vs. their ex-partner, so there was some talk. Mostly it was guys who knew they were pros, finding ways to work as a trio -- a skill that's really waned these days. El Satanico & MS-1 & Pirata Morgan vs Atlantis & El Faraon & Brazo de Plata, 6.29.92 CMLL I loved this... You see, El Faraon was a 44 year-old, 19 year vet, who knew he was a 44 year old, 19 year vet. He was about a week away from a hair match with MS-1 & he worked the match like a vet would. And everybody was tuned to that. They kept it real tight with a tremendous amount of restraint. Atlantis could've torn the house down with Satanico, instead they worked tests of strength. Porky was super-charismatic, but ditched the shtick and looked like he belonged in Faraon's corner. Pirata didn't bump huge, instead he did this great selling where the impact of Porky's gut looked like it took the stuffing out of him, just like Faraon's lariat or elbow might. The effectiveness of narrow offence became a type of reoccuring theme. And MS-1 didn't bump for Faraon like he would for a young guy. He didn't mind looking old at all. I often talk about how there's so many ways to work a trios, but a large part of that is guys knowing their roles & why they're out there. Like the following match: Negro Casas & La Fiera & Bestia Salvaje vs El Dandy & Ringo Mendoza & Ultimo Dragon, 7.12.92 CMLL There's no mistaking who this trios is about. Trios are often used to build-up single matches, but this was especially well done. Dandy & Casas were the two best guys in CMLL at the time and evenly matched. Dandy was the Middleweight champion, but Casas had never played second fiddle to anyone. Bestia and La Fiera were the perfect stooges for Casas to bring to his corner. La Fiera was such class that he didn't take his trainer off the entire match. But they were really there to take care of the mugs on Dandy's team. Casas and Dandy were squarely focused on each other. There was no skirting or avoiding each other. On the mat, it was impossible to separate the better man. And when they couldn't settle anything, the jawing began. And when that wasn't enough, they started slapping each other. They pulled each other's hair and scuffled into the front row. Back in the ring, Dandy wanted less fouling... Casas wound up taking a shot to the jaw; didn't appreciate it, and made no bones about it. He didn't low blow Dandy as much as he punted him. From there on out, Dandy was pissed and Casas couldn't give a fuck. Mendoza and Ultimo pitch in where they can since Dandy and Casas can't always be the legal men, but try telling those two they're not the legal men. Even from the apron they're seething. Casas exploding at the crowd is some of the best acting/selling I've seen. Ever.

So, I read Chapter Four: This is New Japan. It is like Soldier. I don't doubt the validity of what Matt wrote, but you have to take into the story he wanted to tell and how he presented the information. Read the full Maxx Payne interview, which Matt quoted from in the chapter, and you'll get a fair idea of what I'm talking about. Having said that, I thought he gave a pretty fair portrayal of the mentality behind the training. Some of the points he dwelled on were stupid and I'm surprised he wrote about them given he lived in Japan for a while, and I didn't like the way he summed up post-War Japan and the relationship between Japan and Korea in such an overly simplistic way, nor anything he wrote about Japan or Japanese people to be honest, but again, it was pretty obvious the slant he was taking on that. Nevertheless, I do think the chapter illustrates how open to abuse the senpai/kohai relationship is. Personally, I didn't find the stories sadistic or violent, I came away with an impression of how moronic wrestlers can be. Not that the mentality is limited to wrestling mind you. It reminded me in part of Kamp Staaldraad. I suspect Matt is right that this kind of training wasn't healthy for a person like Benoit and it doesn't seem like he learnt particularly good lessons from it (not the lessons you're supposed to learn, anyway), but how much a part it played in shaping Benoit is a little unclear given how many people pass through it OK. Though I guess those people aren't lifers like Benoit was.

I found an interview with Maxx Payne where he talks about dojo life -- http://www.pinfalls.com/maxx.html

Espanto Jr. vs. El Hijo Del Santo (UWA World Welterweight Title Match), 5/14/92 This was such a beautiful Lucha Libre match & made a fool of me thinking Santo wasn't one of the great Lucha mat workers. If more of his UWA work was available, I think we'd get a bigger picture of how good Santo really was. Again, the single camera at ringside gives this a raw documentary feel, only it's not a glimpse of Santo working Durango. Sure he looks every bit the superhero during the introductions, with the belt around his waist & a glorious red cape, & his matwork in the first fall comes across as the height of old-school lucha greatness, but it's really about the other guy. It's kinda hard to pick it, but Espanto Jr. was a 36 year-old wrestler with 21 years experience and this was his night. The great thing about his challenge is how it swings. He actually manages to shake off Santo's matwork in the first fall, sending him to the outside, but back in the ring he gets faked out and takes a high back bump (a spot Espanto liked to do.) It's over after that. So in the second fall, when he shakes Santo off again, this time he stays on him. There's no room for Santo to breath, with the Lucha equivalent of body blows. He gets kneed, elbowed hurled into the turnbuckle... All of which he sells like the K metal from Krypton, but he's OK with it. Espanto pushes his luck in the third fall, however. Santo collapses into the bottom turnbuckle & Espanto can't help himself. Man, you do not piss El Hijo del Santo off. He springs out of the corner & starts hitting the nastiest looking stuff. It's his usual stuff, but you rarely see it this nasty. From there on out it becomes a survival game for Espanto. He'd lost to Santo a bunch of times before; his hair, his mask. And again it looked like he'd blown his opportunities, but the bleaker it became, the more he took on this sort of underdog quality. Santo even kicked the bottom rope. Until finally they reached that level of Lucha where they're just going for it, and it wouldn't matter who won, the crowd would throw coins anyway. But this was Espanto's night. He throws himself back into the ring after Santo's plancha, he kicks out of everything & he finally catches him out. Maybe not the most important title win in wrestling history, and it didn't last very many days, but a special night for a guy who spent a long time plying this trade (and very nearly died in the process.) If you're the least bit interested in Lucha Libre, the El Espanto Jr.: Un Guerrero Nunca Muere DVD is essential. Hell, if you like wrestling it's essential. Santo & Espanto had many other matches and this might not be their best, but it's a hometown boy done good and everyone likes that story.

The allmovie site is excellent too. It would be cool to have a database like that for wrestling, but albums, singles & movies are a lot more manageable.

El Engendro vs. Negro Navarro (NWG Intercontinental Title), 2/15/03 Negro Navarro's one of the only guys I enjoy in wrestling anymore, so if there's any dirt on him I don't want to hear it. I just want to enjoy seeing him do what he does for a living, even if it's in front of a tiny crowd in some gym in Guadalajara. The match is a throwback to when wrestling was about holds. They work their way in and out of holds, trying to catch each other out. There's not a lot of "fight", so to speak, just nous. It's one of those bouts where it's a mini victory to get a guy in a position he doesn't wanna be in, and they only sell when it makes sense from a grappling point of view. I wouldn't call it a great match, but I enjoyed it all the same. Towards the end, Engendro starts pulling out some fantastic looking stuff (a pretty clear indicator he's jobbing), but that cue to take it home was the only part that jumped out. Which isn't to say it's monotonous, it's just good stuff. That's all.

Perhaps I'm reading it wrong, but Dave considers MMA an offshoot of pro-wrestling, therefore he lumps it under the pro-wrestling banner. It depends how much you read into the name "pro-wrestling", as Dave seems to look at it as a type of promoting and not a term for worked matches. Whenever I've read the WON or listened to WO Live, he's always talking about the way MMA is presented and booked, crowd reaction, that type of thing. Either that or he just really wants to write about UFC. One point I disagree about is the perception of MMA in Japan. It's lumped together with pro-wrestling as "fighting" or "combative sports", but people don't call MMA puroresu. And many of the fans it attracted weren't wrestling fans, particularly the large female fanbase. Does anybody know if Dave covered K-1 in '96/97?