ohtani's jacket

Dr. Wagner Jr/Mano Negra vs Super Astro/Ultramán Jr, 10/28/07, Arena Coliseo de Monterrey This seemed like a good opportunity to see Wagner work. I mean actually work. His first exchange with Ultraman was really good. It was pretty much test of strength stuff, but both guys have great grappling stances and there was real strength in the takedowns and the way they tried to hook each other. Niebla couldn't grab an arm and do anything with it, so this wasn't bad, but it was soon apparent that it was ALL Ultraman. Wagner was in the ring for almost the entire match, but boy was he content to get away with the bare minimum. I'm not sure what he's getting at with most of his posing. He looks like an exotico half the time. Ultraman battled away valiantly, making Mano Negra's stuff look really good and launching his combination punches on the doctor, but I'm having my doubts about how good a worker Wagner really is. Bit of a disappointment, though I had forewarning. Super Astro's tope is still a thing of beauty.

Dr. Wagner Jr. vs. Mr. Niebla, 9/3/97 (CMLL World Light Heavyweight Title) I wasn't sure what to make of this match. They worked hard on an Arena Coliseo show, and you never want to criticise something like that, but it was pretty much the epitome of the modern style. Wagner's a guy I really like, but I kept wishing he'd do something special. Niebla couldn't work the match from the ground up and wanted to head straight into the spots. It was up to Wagner to school him in that regard, but he pretty much rolled with it. The big difference between then and now was the third fall. They went longer and did plenty of cool stuff that today's guys should crib, but it was very much riposte grappling and the good doctor showed why he was so successful on tour with NJPW. Good for what it was, but even the Wagner heat segments lacked something.

Satanico vs. Pirata Morgan, hair vs. hair, AAA 11/26/93 Coming into this fight, I didn't expect it to be any good. Probably figured Satanico and Morgan had been in one hair match too many, and I just wanted to see what they were up to in AAA, but these guys... These guys were workers. Pirata Morgan was heavier in this match than I'm used to seeing and no longer the amazing bumper of the late 80s to early 90s. The extra weight hindered his mobility, but it didn't really matter since Morgan was always a worker first and a bumper second. I guess he belongs to a generation that got solid groundings in towns and cities across Mexico. It's not the same Pirata Morgan that gave such amazing performances against El Faraón and Masakre, and you could be excused for thinking it's a different guy, but hair vs. hair matches follow a rather standard pattern of kick/punch brawling & Pirata brought several touches to distinguish it from the norm. Considering how uncharismatic he seemed at this point, and how rapidy he slotted into the category of working vet, I think that speaks volumes for his professional training and background. Naturally it helps that he was wrestling the ageless Satanico, who made some pact with the Devil to remain a great worker. Satanico was once again the star of the match, as he had been more than a year earlier against El Dandy. The guy got so much out of so little. Satanico was basically throwing punches the whole match, interspersed with some knees, headbutts and the customary biting of the open wound. I defy anyone to tell me it was boring. The guy was a master. He kept punching different parts of the body and in the long final fall, where Pirata was going for the submission victory, Satanico punched his ribs to break the hold. Hair matches are all about brawling and bleeding. Jake Roberts was at ringside and he had a big shit eating grin on his face. It never ceases to amaze Jake what the human mind is capable of. The great rudos always have one trick up their sleeve. In Satanico's case it was claiming the foul when there was none. If you've watched any amount of Lucha, you know Satanico will pull a deliberate foul later on. It seems simple, but it's becoming a lost art. Another great moment -- Satanico has Pirata's shoulders pinned on the mat and really leans in on him to get the three count. Of course Morgan's trying to fight it, so Satanico starts pumping his legs to counter the resistance. None of these flashes pins, Satanico had just enough leverage to hold Morgan for a three count. How about Satanico's shriek every time Pirata catches his leg for a takedown? Or the way he sells the back of his head on every back bump? I guess this is the type of match that flew under the radar in the Rey Mysterio era. From memory there's not a single dive. If you prefer your Lucha to be fundamentally solid, I recommend checking this out.

The point of this rather regrettable thread was who adapted into the 90s. Hogan clearly adapted & became a 90s stars. If you think that's because of 80s booking fine. Personally, I think the Horsemen were positively 80s and the NWO positively 90s. They would've looked out of place in each other's era. You've got me confused about whether the 70s ended in 1984 or the 80s began in the late 70s and ran for twenty years. Nothing says the 80s are over more than Hogan leaving the company. I don't know if a year and half at the end of the 80s qualifies you as an 80s "star", but he was certainly an 80s worker and therefore failed to adapt. 80s heel Hogan joins forces with 80s stars Kevin Nash and Scott Hall to feud with 80s beach bum Sting? Yes, it looked like an episode of WWF Superstars or the Power Hour.

My argument it's that there was a seismic shift as soon as the calendar flipped over to January 1st, 1990. I was curious about how much of 80s wrestling managed to adapt through to the 90s, and I still don't see how the business wasn't changing in the early 90s. John mentioned that Hogan was still on top in the early 90s, but there was a concerted effort to make Warrior the top star in 1990. Yes this could have happened in 1986 if the time frame had been different, but in wrestling it wasn't. By 1996 you had Bret Hart and Shawn Michaels headlining a Wrestlemania. The roots of that are in the early 90s. It wasn't a case of adapting simply because it was the 90s, it was how business went. They lost the better part of their 80s audience and as business starts to decline, you see how things adapt or fail to adapt. As far as I'm concerned, 1990 WCW is the last year that looks like it could've been 80s NWA.

I think it's simply a matter of having a character and wrestling "in character." The important thing is that whatever the angle, storyline or feud is, all of that is just set-up. You need to pay it off in the match.

How effective was Hogan after dropping the title to the Warrior? I was part of the international audience at the time and that was pretty much it. WWF went off the air shortly thereafter. Was Warrior really an 80s star or the first attempt at making a 90s star? If the 90s didn't start until the Attitude era in '98 then what is it? A lost decade? What about the New Generation, Nitro, the NWO?

Well, I don't see the early 90s as a holdover from the 80s. I think it was a key transitional period & I'd argue that the wrestling landscape was changing even in 1990. Loss' idea that the 90s didn't start until '94-95 didn't even occur to me. I'd argue that the 90s started "earlier" than that.

Found this by accident, Black Cat talking about Mexico and Japan -- http://kuroneko.milkcafe.to/history.html

Can't really see a case for Hamada to be honest. Not sure if he was any more influential than Kotetsu Yamamoto or Fujiwara.

Mexico is a bit iffy since we don't have much TV. On the surface, guys like Satanico, MS-1, Lizmark, Los Brazos, Villanos all made the transition, with guys like Santo, Casas, El Dandy, Blue Panther, Atlantis, Pirata Morgan all peaking in the early 90s. Yet a lot of these guys didn't survive UWA folding or AAA taking over CMLL in popularity. Based on my limited knowledge, I assume the Toreo draws suffered the most, particularly Canek and Perro Sr. Fishman didn't seem to adapt well as a worker, but that might be self-inflicted. Emilio Charles, Jr. dropped off quickly in the 90s. Can't say too much about Herodes or Sangre Chicana since the 80s footage is so limited. Rayo seemed to do pretty well for himself in the 90s. Not sure about Cien Caras. I guess Mil Máscaras made money, which is what it's all about.

Cicloncito Ramirez, Pequeño Cochisse, Platita & Pequeño Sayama vs. Damiancito el Guerrero, Fierito, Tritoncito & Guerrerito del Futuro This was a Cibernetico at the end of '97, where the winner earned the right to wrestle in a "regular" tag match. If you read this blog, then you probably know who won. Bit of a shame really. There was never any guarantee of seeing the Minis on TV, but this was it for one of the best divisions anywhere in wrestling. There were classics to be had for the CMLL Mini Estrellas Title, but we never did get that Damiancito el Guerrero/Cicloncito Ramirez rematch. I'm happy to report that they went out in style. It wasn't a classic or anything, but it was quality wrestling and the kind of beautiful exchanges that you rarely see at Arena Coliseo anymore.

I finally took advantage of the pinned thread in this forum and starting renting PRIDE DVDs again. I'm backtracking over the stuff I already watched back in 2000, then I'll probably follow the advice of TheShawshankRudotion.

Japan Jumbo is an obvious choice, since the early 90s was the peak of his reputation in Japan as a worker and star. Not sure how much longer he could've continued as a top worker, but he clearly adapted from the late 80s onwards. Hansen adapted well, but some credit has to go to the improvement in the younger AJPW guys as workers. Tenryu did a pretty great job of managing his bookings in the 90s. Perhaps the most successful freelancer in the history of Japanese pro-wrestling? Regardless of what you think of him as a worker, he pretty much delivered in a big match setting. Hase did a good job switching to a heavier weight class, which is different from an 80s worker peaking in the 90s. Choshu booked himself well, I guess. Maeda was still a draw throughout most of the 90s, but his knees were gone by the end of 1990. Fujiwara was always an awesome worker, so I guess Takada takes the crown for becoming a major star in the mid-90s. Gran Hamada is a bit like Fujiwara in that he was always a talented worker, but I guess he deserves credit for keeping up with a style he more or less pushed through. Bull Nakano deserves some credit for adapting to AJW's circumstances after '88-89 and creating a new character. Devil Masami became a great working vet, without having to be the top star of her own promotion. On the negative side, Fujinami really struggled in the 90s and Choshu's Army, though they were old, couldn't remain relevant. I thought Chigusa Nagayo and Lioness Asuka struggled upon their return, though they had drawing clout. Jaguar was OK, but not truly great.

Which workers, managers, commentators, etc. do you guys think survived the switch from the 80s to the 90s? Who were most notably left behind?

Satanico vs. El Dandy, hair vs. hair, 9/18/92 (59th Anniversary Show) This was the third time these guys had squared off in as many years and not a match the fans wanted to see. Satanico and El Dandy were great workers, so there were enough touches to make it enjoyable, but it wasn't as good as their previous matches -- which weren't the greatest to begin with. It was kinda in keeping with Dandy's matches against Bestia Salvaje (9/4) and La Fiera (11/27), two competent rudos with whom Dandy had flat performances. I guess when it comes to something like Dandy vs. Casas, it's easier to "create," since there's so much heat to work with. When folks get restless, it becomes harder to get the reaction you want, particularly when it's a match people don't want to see again. Satanico was more aggressive than their past meetings, talking a lot and nailing Dandy with the kind of headbutts that real wrestling fans appreciate. He extracted a good looking bladejob from Dandy's skull & was generally nefarious. It was Dandy's performance that was a little on the weak side. The thing about technico Dandy is that you still expect him to be an asskicker. Here he was too much of a babyface. There was an awesome punching exchange that led to one mother of a DDT, but not enough brawling. One minute he's bleeding everywhere, the next minute he's celebrating like he won the football in extra time. The finish was not cool. Satanico did one of the best "cheat to win" victory celebrations I've ever seen, only for some Tunney type to overrule it. So Dandy got a restart. If it was scored on points, Satanico would've won for shoving Atlantis the fuck out of the way on the outside. El Dandy was beginning to slide here, nearing the end of his great run.

El Hijo del Santo vs. El Averno, 10/22/04 (WWA World Welterweight Championship) Man, Lucha has lost its charm. After watching raw, grainy footage of Santo and Espanto Jr, this came across as pretty damn lifeless. I was kinda hoping that Averno would prove himself to be more than a foil, but he took little or no initiative in the matwork and despite Santo still being pretty slick, this was just a series of spots. It's all neatly packaged, but I saw better work on the Todos X el Todos show & those guys are truly ancient.

You can't paint a picture of what these people are really like if you can't be sure that the stories were told as they actually happened. At the end of the day, Ring of Hell is Matt's take on a business he hates, weaved together in a narrative of Chris Benoit's life and career. There's more of Matt's voice in the book that anyone else's and that was the most disappointing aspect for me. In any half-way decent documentary or non-fiction book I've seen or read, both sides have been represented, which gives us the opportunity to judge for ourselves. Ring of Hell lacked the multiple perspectives that make that possible. It's not a matter of getting guys to go on record who disagree with certain claims, it's about including all of the information possible, instead of trying to drive home a point. I do think he tried to be fair, but I also think he omitted a lot of stuff in an attempt to connect A with B. In writing the book (or perhaps in researching it), it appears that Matt found a series of correlations between events in Benoit's life, correlations that had wider implications for the wrestling business as a whole. That's fair enough. My question is -- did he test his own theory? Was there any point where he refused to let counter evidence get in the way of a good story? Given he only had a month's deadline, I think they're valid questions. People who are not wrestling fans or only very casual ones don't know what's a crock and what's not, therefore the author's voice is the most persuassive. Perhaps you're right that dyed in the wool fans would never listen to what the book has to say, but in refusing to believe any old story it also means they're not easily worked.

The point is to appeal to the average reader, not guys who already know the stories and get a kick out of reading them in print. The fact that the biggest fans of the book are guys who already knew the stories and like the way Matt tells them is a pretty clear indicator of where he may have gone wrong. I don't know what Matt's intentions were exactly, but the bigger challenge was winning over the skeptics or convincing dyed in the wool fans of pro-wrestling's problems. It's not a matter of whether it was entertaining or not (which it was, quite frankly), it's a matter of whether it was as good a piece of journalism as it could have been. Embelishing or exaggerating stories isn't particularly helpful in regards to the truth. It only leads to further exaggeration or embelishment. The journalist's job is to cut through all the lies with a scalpel, not print enough stories until some of it sticks.

The tone isn't an issue. That's implicit in the writing style. In writing "with all the zeal of a back alley surgeon," there was a lot of exaggeration for effect. In fairness to Matt, a lot of people have exaggerated the claims that the book makes, but still I think he should've been more careful.

I don't think it's possible to really view wrestling in this way anymore. More and more my respect goes to those who have successfully negotiated their way through a pro-wrestling career.

The problems with the book have a lot to do with Matt's preconceived notions about the business and the role it played. I don't think he fully explored the topic. Instead he span a narrative around what he believed to be true, using material when it suited him & omitting stuff when it didn't fit. Hence it hasn't been that persuasive with people who don't share the same position.

What did Dave say about the book?

Villano III vs Negro Casas (IWRG 11-1-07) Another decent sort of a match. Villano III is in his late 50s and kinda creaks around the ring, but he still looks like he could break a guy in half if he wanted to. Casas has always been good at hiding his age, partly out of vanity (one would assume.) Here he's wrestling a guy who's at least ten years older than him, so he doesn't have to hide it so much, but he kinda wrestles what's in front of him, which I thought was decent of him. The match is probably too slow to get a watch out of most people, and some might question what Villano III is doing looking for bookings anymore, but there's a couple of times (like when they throw in a headbutt) where you can kinda appreciate how many wars these guys have been through. Would've liked it to have been more explosive, or perhaps more mat based, but I guess it's difficult to rev up the engine on this type of circuit.

Kahos/El Engendro vs. El Celestial/El Coloso, 10/3/92, UWA Fun match. The matwork was pretty simple, and perhaps a bit slow, but I dug the selling points. Engendro gives a great burlesque performance. The trick to that, of course, is being an asskicker after the comedy spots, which Engendro most certainly is. There's about five or six genuine laughs, which is pretty good for an undercard match. Engendro lords over proceedings, working the refs, crowd and his opponents, but he exits the match in spectacular fashion... Wiped out by a tope, never to be seen from again. Nice way to bow out.