ohtani's jacket

Here's a question -- has there ever been a better Japanese pro-wrestler than Fujiwara? El Hijo del Santo or Negro Casas? Barry Windham or Arn Anderson? Marty Jones or Dynamite Kid?

Steamboat was pretty good at getting fired up. His WCW run from '91 to '94 is full of asskicking performances. The most cringeworthy thing I can remember Rey doing was that promo they made him do after Hogan turned heel.

Sorry, didn't read your post properly. I'm not sure that the Greatest Wrestlers Ever poll was all that impartial, but certainly "characterisation" can be used as a means of judging workers. I'd still argue, however, that you need to find some common ground. If you simply prefer Tito's work or Bret's characterisation, that's fine from your own point-of-view, but it's not really enough if you want to make a case for Tito & Bret > Rey. To be honest, I'm not really sure who I think is the better babyface out of those three, but if I were to think about it, first I'd have to wipe out all of my biases. Then I'd try to ignore the booking and the different positions those workers were in, and try to find something they all in common.

If only Ray could cap screen shots. Such a nice touch.

If Rey's lowered himself in WWF, what was that crap he was doing running around without a mask in WCW? Or that crap he did in Mexico before he signed with the WWE?

I'm not sure if I understand your point. Comparing guys working in different environements is what people do all the time. If you voted in the SC Greatest Wrestler poll, which I believe you did, you had to engage in ranking different wrestlers working different styles and working different promotions. So if you indeed sent in a ballot, you're contradicting yourself here. I didn't vote based on who the better babyface was, I simply voted for what I thought the best matches were. That was a matches poll, not a workers poll. If someone says Rey Mysterio Jr. is the greatest WWE babyface worker ever and another guy reckons it's Tito Santana, that would actually make for a pretty cool argument, but I don't think it's as simple as listing matches.

Well, stunningrover, I told you an Eddie Guerrero fan might disagree. I've seen most of the Guerreros stuff in Mexico and Chavo Sr. was clearly the best of the Guerreros. Eddie was never really a "lucha style worker." He always looked like a US pro-wrestler to me. I don't think the Gringos stuff holds up compared to other heel trios, and I don't see how working lucha brawls was a problem when so many other great 90s feuds had awesome brawling trios matches. I also think that working NJPW moves in AAA matches is a strike against Eddie, at least from my perspective. It's understandable if people like Rey and Eddie's early work, but there seems to be an inbuilt prejudice that they can't have done their best work in the WWE, because it's the WWE and the WWE has always been a shitty promotion work-wise. I wouldn't felt that way too had I not watched a ton of lucha lately and been involved in the WWF and WCW projects at smarkschoice. As for judging one babyface against another, Tito was a Ricky Steamboat type face, Bret was a wannabe Gretsky who thought he was a role model and Rey Mysterio has been an underdog. How do you compare the three? There's not a lot of common ground there.

Every great worker is overrated to one extent or another. Take Eddie for example. He had two really good periods, WCW in 1997 and WWE 2004-05. The rest you could nitpick. If you ask me he wasn't particularly good in Mexico, his early US babyface work was weak, his Japanese work was a mixed bag and he struggled when he first joined WWE. Eddie Guerrero fans won't see it that way, but the point is that you can critique anything. Rey's WWE work, of which I've seen the stuff recommended to me, is better than his AAA, ECW, WAR and WCW stuff. Wrestling fans always want to compare workers against each other when often there's no connection. I don't really know how you judge a Tito Santana performance from 1984 or 1985 with a Rey Mysterio performance from twenty years later. Tito was in an awesome feud with Greg Valentine. A wrestling feud. The type of feud that forms the foundation of most people's fandom. Rey is feuding over shit that wouldn't make it past the writer's table on a network drama. Hell, it's such crap that the writer's would be too embarrassed to bring it up. So, I think the only way to judge Mysterio is whether he's better now than he was in '96 and '97. Athletically, many people would say no. Match wise, I'd say yes.

I'm not a big fan of Mysterio Jr., but the other day I watched him have an excellent match with Finlay from 2006. It was a storyline match much like Rey's feud with Eddie Guerrero in 2005. I couldn't give a shit about Rey's problems with Vicki Guerrero, and I didn't need Cole reminding us that every...single...second...of...the...match was about Rey's problems with Vicki Guerrero, but it was an excellent match by any standards. All of the Vicki Guerrero crap was annoying in the same manner that all of the emotion of that Unforgiven cage match that Dylan loves is annoying because the commentators never stop ramming it down your throat, but it's not the workers fault that the commentators can't or won't shut up. But more to the point, there is nothing good about Marufuji.

How can you say Rey's WWE stuff is overrated and have anything good to say about Marufuji?

That's because all Vader matches are the same.

I don't know the answer to this question. I'd have to watch it again. I do know that I like the Midnight Express more than I ever did before after doing this project, and in particular I like Bobby Eaton more than I ever did before, so I might be going on an outdated memory. I never cared much for Smothers or Armstrong as workers and hated the Southern Boys gimmick, but I watched one of their TV matches before the end of the balloting and really enjoyed it, so maybe the GAB match is OK. From memory, it wasn't laid out as well as Midnights vs. Rock "n" Roll Express or some of the other tags they had that year.

Heel champions were only ever transitional champs back then and Vince was looking for a babyface draw. I think it was a little murkier than babyface champs for three years. Either Bret or Diesel could've turned heading into SS '95, but they both ended up as tweeners. Sid was a tweener as well. He was a heel who started getting babyface pops because Michael's face run didn't have any pre-Attitude era edge to it. UT may have been a face, but his gimmick was that he was otherwordly. Aside from the failed Diesel push, where they really put him up against some ridiculous opponents, there was one clear cut babyface run in that period (Michaels) and it sucked.

OK, I'll give you a reprieve

There's a story going around in English rugby right now about a physio slipping a player a blood capsule so he could head to the blood bin and be replaced by a goal kicker. Should've bladed.

I stopped watching WWE before the Invasion angle, but surely it was bound to fall on its ass. An invasion angle can only really work if a group of workers jump from one promotion to another or appear to have jumped even if their company went out of business (like the original UWF.) How can you have an "invasion" when Vince is shooting about owning the wrestlers' contracts and everyone thinks WCW was a shitty promotion in its last few years? How many of those WCW guys were actually hot, like Choshu, Maeda or Hall and Nash? It kinda reminds me of that crappy UWF-i feud with New Japan, though I guess not everyone in Japan realised that the UWF-i was losing money. And at least in that scenario, you had the idea that Takada would take on the world to see who the best worker in Japan was.

The thing about Rey and Psicosis is that it's easier for a rudo to look better because a rudo does more work than a technico. Psicosis was a sloppy worker and somewhat poor offensively, but he had great schtick and took incredible bumps. Rey in AAA was pretty much an early version of WCW Rey -- he aborbed as much punishment as he could take before rattling off a comeback. That's okay in a trios match or 2/3 falls, but in WCW it took him a while to adjust to one fall singles matches. His weakness in AAA was that he couldn't brawl and his matwork was weak. Psicosis wasn't a hell of a lot better, but could cover up for it with the madcap stuff he did. In WCW, I thought he looked strong in his first couple of matches, but they jobbed him out in his first month. Ideally, he should've been brought into the company as a "Mysterio hunter" or something like that, and they could've ran a Sano/Liger type feud, but WCW didn't give much thought to it and had Malenko as Rey's main opponent in his first six months. So, yes, Psicosis was more entertaining than Rey in AAA, but he hung out with great rudos from UWA and CMLL. Mysterio, more often than not, worked alongside crappy AAA luchadores. His best period was probably when they put him together with Santo and Octagon and they formed a kind of third rate Space Cadets. Octagon was such a big star at that time that I guess Rey worked more like Octagon than someone classy like Solar or Lizmark. Angel Azteca was the closest thing to a Solar or Lizmark, but for whatever reason wasn't pushed. I don't think there's much comparison between WWE Rey and any of his earlier work. He's a much better worker now than he's ever been before, which is strange and unusual, but a credit to him.

Sacrilege! What's the highest ranked tag on your list?

I always assumed the Superbrawl tag was highly regarded. It was actually my #3 match, I think. The Starrcade 92 tag and the 5/22 6-man were #4 and #5 and I don't think there's three better tags in WCW history than that trio. Superbrawl is the best of the lot because it's Austin and Larry as a team, which shouldn't have worked but was awesome. You only have to compare it to the awful Steiners vs. Arn/Eaton match from the same show to see how it stands out from the pack.

I'm not criticising the list, I just think it's strange. Our thinking was pretty similar on 1930s cinema, but miles apart on WCW. Your #52 was my #2.

Man, that question for Dave was brilliant. There are some clever people in the world.

The Regal/Larry Z ranking was the one that surprised me the most.

Man, you've got some great WCW matches awfully low. What gives?

IWRG 8/10/09 (taped 8/6) We have a new benefactor on youtube! Los Piratas Barba Roja - Pirata Morgan Jr - Hijo del Pirata Morgan vs Los Terribles Cerebros Cerebro Negro - Dr. Cerebro - Black Terry This was the first time I've bothered to watch Los Piratas, and I must say I approve. They've got matching outfits, matching masks, can wrestle on the mat, brawl when they need to, and more importantly, they've got the right build. Thick and stocky, none of this skinny abs crap. Los Terribles Cerebros have been by far and away the best trios in Mexico this year. Black Terry isn't the worker he was in 2007 or 2008, but the two Cerebros have stepped up to the point where Terry doesn't have to be the workhorse for the team and thus they've become a slick unit. If fact, if it wasn't for Hijo del Pirata Morgan tossing his mask at Terry, Los Terribles Cerebros would've won this in straight falls. That allowed Terry to do some brilliant pleading with the ref and a bunch of awesome finger pointing once the Piratas were awarded the fall, and it's those performance aspects which are really Terry's forte these days. Don't get me wrong, he can still work the mat and still throw a punch, but he's not in the kind of shape he was a few years back. What I liked about the Cerebros' team work here were the finishes. They were classic trios finishes, similar to how lucha was worked back in the days of Los Temerarios. Considering Terry wears the same jacket as his Temerarios days, it's only fitting that his present side work the same way. Classy team work is something that's missing from a lot of trios matches today, not to mention finishes that carry an idea. Watch how well they work the second fall DQ finish. The Piratas were all set to take the second fall, but the Cerebros pushed past the point where the Piratas would usually win the fall. Negro and the Doctor hit topes on the outside, leaving Morgan's kid all alone with Terry. The timing of Morgan's unmasking was perfect, and the look on Terry's face when he realised what had been flung at him was one of those moments that only happen in Black Terry matches. Strong match. I'm looking forward to the revancha. Los Oficiales Oficial 911 - Oficial Fierro - Oficial AK-47 vs La Dinastia de la Muerte Trauma I - Trauma II - Negro Navarro Haven't seen the Oficiales in a while, and more to the point, haven't seen a good Oficiales match since last year. This was a brawl, which was understandable since the semi-final was a long, traditional style match, but the first two falls bored the shit out of me. It was noticeable, however, how much better La Dinastia de la Muerte were at taking the reigns. The Oficiales don't brawl with enough intensity and haven't added anything new to their routine. Fortunately, the match came to life in the third fall when Navarro unleashed an ass kicking on Fierro -- lefts and rights, knees to the head, kicks to the face and head stomps... those Oficial caps were made for head stomps. 911 is clearly the best of the Oficiales and did a cool brawling takedown in this match, but the Oficiales will need to strike a little harder if they're going to make this feud interesting. And when will luchadores realise that you don't go mano a mano with Negro Navarro when the match is on the line? Another awesome submission finish. One pleasing note from this show -- the card was well attended and the crowd were vocal. Good shit.

Sergio El Hermoso & El Bello Greco vs. Yoshiaki Fujiwara & Kengo Kimura, New Japan 2/3/89 Oh, man. I'm a huge fan of Fujiwara, so there was no way I could resist watching him work against exoticos. This got over with the crowd better than I thought it would, since there were nowhere near as many gay entertainers in Japan twenty years ago as there are now. There were a couple of genuine laugh out loud moments, and Sergio El Hermoso in particular was fantastic. They worked a pretty simple match around Fujiwara's old New Japan gimmick of having a harder head than the ringpost or the steel behind it. His weakness, as it turns out, is that he doesn't particularly like being kissed by transvestites. I've got to admit that I actually expected Fujiwara to be funnier than he really was, but the exoticos made up for it by being gold. Poor Kengo didn't have much of a personality, though. Jesus. The highlight of the match were the spectacular bumps Sergio took off Fujiwara arm whips. Man were they good. His performance here totally made up for how shitty he was in that WWA tag against Solar and Super Astro. Sergio El Hermoso, you are back in the good books. Sangre Chicana, La Fiera y Mocho Cota vs. Los Infernales (MS-1/Satanico/Espectro Jr.), EMLL 9/30/83 This was a revenge match a week after the famous MS-1/Sangre Chicana hair match, and I don't think I've ever seen a more fired up group of rudos in all my life. Their whole purpose seemed to be to keep the other technicos out of the ring so they could beat the shit out of Chicana. Cota tried making a save one too many times, and the Infernales got stuck into him, giving him a nasty cut over the eye. The cool thing about all this was that MS-1 was staggering around the ring looking for someone to punch, which I don't think he was doing on purpose but made it seem like has having a difficult time controlling himself. The editing and dark picture made this difficult to follow, but this was one of the hottest crowds I've ever heard at Arena Mexico. It may have been the loudest support I've ever heard for a technico comeback, and what I liked about the comeback was that these weren't technicos who point to the crowd and signal they're going to use a closed fist. Guys like Chicana and Cota were at one time or another absolute cunts as rudos, so there was a viciousness to their comeback that you wouldn't ordinarily see from technicos. There were no real winners here, however, and no spoils despite Cota claiming Espectro's mask as a trophy. The post-match scene resembled a battlefield with both sides tending to their fallen. Unfortunately, the match was too short to be anything other than heated. It would've made a good first two falls, but the rudos never got a look in once their ass stomping began and there was never any sort of showdown between MS-1 and Chicana. It felt like their feud had been aborted, and along with it, the entire reason for having such a match. Martín Karadagián vs. La Momia, Titanes en el Ring 1972 OK, so technically this isn't lucha libre, but it's in Spanish so we'll pass it off as a cousin. The only reason I'm writing about this match is because I've never seen a guy play a gimmick better than the guy who played La Momia. Seriously, the guy was incredible. He moved and fought exactly as a mummy should. He even got up like a mummy should whenever he fell over. According to Kurt Brown, Martín Karadagián was the Vince McMahon and Hulk Hogan of Titanes en el Ring all rolled into one. He looked a like Rip Rogers if Rip Rogers were Argentinian and had a ginormous nose. He pounded away at La Momia with right hands, but the mummy kept walking into him with big open handed strikes until he could get close enough for a chokehold. This was from a movie, so there were countless inserts of bewildered children. I couldn't really figure out what happened at the end, but there were countless inserts of happy children so I'm guessing Karadagián was the victor.