Indikator

"MMA isn't pro wrestling in the sense that it isn't fake. " I hate this sentence. I will just say two names, Takada and Maeda. The correct sentence should be "MMA isn't pro wrestling in the sense that it isn't always fake. "

I only vaguely remember one diva not knowing Andrè the Giant. But what's this story?

Ha. There's probably an easy spin off to the myth busters thread about smart marks being an internet fad, but I'm too lazy to write it out. So just ha. I think "fake" chants have been around since 1875. Remember, wrestling was all about ripping of gamblers until after WWI, so that makes it quite understandable

Could it be that there is an influx of F4W guys going on? If so, I think I can finally check out what all the young'ins are talking about

That is really narrow minded. Wrestling (journalism) is not as easy as you think, and Meltzer is not the top of the wrestling knowledge pyramid. You have to know and admit that Meltzer is not omnicient - of course nobody could ever be. Wrestling is not all about your youths favorite territory or what is on national TV right now. If you want to be like BAHU and want to be the best FMW source you need to know about the Florida ~1990 promotions, luchadores and the beginnings of the Japanese independent scene. If you read Karl Sterns, Wrestling as we knew it and all those other old school newsletters you probably know more than Dave Meltzer in that area. If you have read a topic for 5 minutes on a UK pro wrestling board about the local wrestling history you probably know more than Dave Meltzer. "Lou Thesz/*insert US idol* said that...." is not really deep knowledge. Ditto for Lucha Libre Looking at the independent coverage prior to 2000 its laughable how far that area has regressed. So you have all those possible fields of expertise. Do I expect Meltzer to know about all those things? No, though I will probably never stop to hope for it. Yet I have to admit to be disappointed to a certain degree. But it not that the other experts know everything. I think I realized that it's unreasonable to expect a single wrestling fan to know about everything when I read more about European history. Reading the opinions of older Euro experts it was plain to see that they didn't know too much about the contemporary US territories and corresponding careers of "their" wrestlers. And I couldn't find fault. There is no IWC god, only certain experts on certain topics

I'm loving it

Benny Urquidez

To me the only possible successor could have been Kuniaki Kobayashi, who already had his own copy cat gimmick (That Benny (?) guy who Van Halen's "Jump" is based on)

But it's one of the most classic face payback spots. Brody is essentially saying "although I know what the spot means nobody should do it with me as I am way too awesome". Which is reaching Bret Hart levels of being delusional

I assume Hawaii got wrestlers because they weren't on the radar and wrestlers had their vacations there

The territorial days are gone. Its more likely that the national promotions will implode and it's going to be 20s/30s style without big promoters. It's almost delusional or retarded to think that the territories could come back. The TV landscape in the US has changed drastically, it's way too synchronized. Just think of the top 40 radios, decades ago you had variety, now most outlets try to imitate each other. I'd say the possibilities are higher that a 50s feeder system could reemerge, as in you have 2-3 network shows with smaller promotions using the nationwide known stars. But the territorial days are over. I guess the next logical step is going to be that the internet will bring easy access to smaller promotions all over the world. I don't know when or how it's going to be, but with ECW/ROH existing through VHS/DVD sales it wouldn't shock me if CHIKARA could build it's foundation on people ordering their shows Netflix style. It might be a little bit like the territorial days, but without regional borders. People will still know that kayfabe is a joke, so Jim doesn't have to worry, he could work himself in that aspect again.

Biggest change in soccer would be the substitute player, but that happened more than 40 years ago (early 60s) . For a long time I didn't know anything about it and I'd love to see a match without substitutions at least once.

I think the more I get certain aspects of wrestling the more I can appreciate it. You can also use what you have learned in the real world, especially things that have to do with manipulation, marketing, sociology and profit maximization Mick Foleys cheap heat tactics are crowd manipulation 101. Although it is nowadays way more prelevant in MMA rule changing is also a very efficient way to change a whole sport. It took less than 10 years to completely change wrestling in Europe with the change of graeco-roman style to free style rules. Turn your promotion into something cartoonish and others will copy you. Use hardcore elements and others will throw out their rules. Use blood and others will learn how to blade. I don't think any other sport has really changed in the last 40 years to my knowledge. Therefore we even have to get used to the thought that other sports could undergo drastic changes. Only wrestling is constantly changing, it just takes one other promotion or one other region to promote in where people have other needs. The deeper you get into it the more interesting your observations are going to be. You will understand how sport government bodies are trying to dictate the way their sport is going. The more I know about Frank Gotchs time in Alaska scamming gamblers and the pre-WWII groups the more I get how boxing works. Wrestling has an interesting aspect - the workers work the fans and the fans work the workers. I have read a couple of European articles from the early 50s that commonly stated the notion, that the fans went to wrestling as a ventil for their anger. After the war it was quite common for them to be very polite, conservative and act befittingly in every aspect of their life - except when they went to wrestling shows. There they got invisible, they didn't care what others would say about them and if their interactions with other people was lacking of otherwise necessary etiquette. In other words, wrestling was a microcosmos for people 50 years ago. I know a girl who once amused told me that she rated a politicians interview with pro wrestling standards (did he establish his character, was it a face interview etc.) - and thats certainly not a ridiculous thing to do. If you understand how a interview works you can apply that knowledge to virtually every interview. Of course for this to happen the interview has to be conducted in order to sell ones position or net worth. We know of Muhammed Ali because he adapted pro wrestling into his act (and also his sport). Does that make him or even his interviews fake? I'm not really sure, it's also a rather philosophical question. If Duane Johnson would start using all his old catch phrases again, would that be real or fake? Nobody would even think about it weren't it for wrestling. Regarding these crossover issues "sports entertainment" is a rather fitting term I noticed just now. Wrestling is the epitome of an impure sport. Always has, always will. Maybe we even embrace it because of it. Nevertheless, it is not redundant, you can even learn lots of things. So don't be stupid and inform yourself.

I would apply your notion to 90% of the praised WWE matches post-2000. Nobody would give a shit about MITB matches at a COD. And people wouldn't notice most heavyweight matches would they happen anywhere else. I wonder how long it takes until somebody will say that the 95 AJPW tag matches do not have any context and that there is no need at all to watch them chronologically. How can you say that there is no story to 6/3/94? That's like saying that the Rock vs Steve Austin matches weren't connected. That would make an awesome trolling job btw, convincing people that those matches were interchangable and context-free. And Savage vs. Hogan didn't have a backstory either as the turn didn't happen at WM5 and you only watched the WM5 match without knowing that they had a feud. Oh blissful ignorance, how sweet you are.

What a wise man

The ECW fans weren't that different from W*ING fans or AJPW fans who always had fun with mock cheering the old/incompetent guys in the comedy matches. Just remember DiBiase vs Warrior from the Tokyo Dome. When people discuss the fakery I always say that in the 19th century seemingly every newspaper match report wondered if the contest was square. In the early 20th century that stopped completely so everybody assumed it was staged.

BP vs V5 is only so popular because it was a huge upset. Otherwise nobody would have even talked about it. The match itself is like one of those WWE matches this decade where you think to yourself that they have now included all those things from the independents that you don't like. I like how the match generated a lot of talk. I just don't like it placed on Top X listings

Who was actually the pioneer of stalling? I read the autobiograhpy of Ludwig Von Krupp/Rene Lasartesse, who wrote a lot about this subject. He had an aristocrat'ish gimmick that he got in the mid-50s and stalled his way through main events for over 30 years. He said he got the gimmick once when he didn't pay attention to the wrestler parade that was common in Europe and the crowd booed him quite aloud when he didn't react when he was announced. He didn't do it on purpose, but knew that this could be his gimmick (he also bleached his hair, must have been a late 50's MSG influence where he worked). At some point that I can't pinpoint he included stalling in his act, I've read a couple of articles from the late 80s when people said that although Lasartesse is over 50 and stalls a lot, people always buy a ticket for the next show hoping that someone will then clean his clock. With daily wrestling shows in the same venue that is quite a feat, especially if he was able to headline for decades with this act. Back to my original question, it's probably not Gorgeous George as he was a comedy worker who took ridiculous bumps. I think it might have been another aristocrat, but I've never seen a Leone/Carlton/Blears match with obvious stalling tactics. As it's a gimmick that is basically one big tease it might have also been a wrestler who people always wanted to see bleed, just like Bobby Heenan.

That is actually the argument UFC has to deal with in Germany. It's the usual argument against wrestling or MMA over here. I have heard it way too often, almost every article repeats it sheepishly. And then I read that wrestling in Canada doesn't seem to be highly regarded compared to Japan.

False: The majority of Wrestling Marks thought Wrestling was real back in the good old days. True: The majority of Non Wrestling Fans think that Wrestling Marks still think Wrestling is real.

Why should a CC/RWTL LEAGUE winner get a title belt instead of a trophy?

- promos were probably never scripted by people from outside the wrestling industry. Also, I think it changed from talking points to verbatim quotes - considering everything this is likely true. There are other countries far worse than the US, too - the only Harts that people know are Bret and Owen. It's preposterous to rate the other siblings if you`ve never seen them - thats like saying Mankind was Abyss before Abyss. There have been numerous other SOB gimmicks, the most important ones were probably Crusher & Dick the Bruiser. In the end the originator will probably be the first monster heel turned babyface. Who that was I can't say, maybe Al Mills, Danny McShain, Cowboy Luttral, Leo Savage... By the way, the first huuuuge monster in wrestling was the French Angel Maurice Tillet. He is the answer for the Mankind/Abyss question. There have been other PT Barnum'ish monsters before, but he easily takes the cake. There have been no other successful guys like him in either America or Europe around 1900, so this is the only thing I can pretty much guarantee

Sadly I can't find an old Supertape IV review that Vince Russo once posted on Usenet. Anybody have a link?

McMahon has enough money to give him paid leave if necessary, so fuck WWE for this behaviour