Kronos

I know there's not a lot of new gimmicks in the world of rasslin, but some stolen gimmicks are more blatant than others. "The Enforcer" CW Anderson, who runs around doing spinebusters? Stolen gimmick, much? What else is out there? And is this more common or less of a big deal than I am thinking?

Watching Living Dangerously 2000 on 24/7. The production values put ROH to shame. The first few minutes were misogynistic, homophobic, juvenile, and all around trashy. It does have a kind of embarrassing retro charm, though. Dusty/Corino bullrope match proves that even fat, slow, and blown up, Dusty was as compelling in-ring as ever. Doring/Roadkill vs Enforcers was a pretty decent straight wrestling match, and a nice change from the bloody brawl before it. I think Roadkill is a great gimmick, and he's really over. Someone should bring that Amish Warrior character back on the Indy scene.

Hmm. So you're saying that Terry/Che was not a maestro exhibition? Hehe. Glad to know it's not something I am imagining. I thought I might wanna get clear on this concept before I got too much deeper into the voting over at WKO. "Let's start with a bit of chain wrestling -- especially a waistlock -- and then go to the mat. I'll try a few gentle submission holds. How about one keylock and then some form of anklelock or cloverleaf? Then we'll gently transition over to you doing the same thing? Don't worry if you're slow setting up the legs into your submission -- I'll wait for you and even help if you need. Then we'll stand and face off and either tag in our partners or actually start wrestling the match for real." That's actually not too different that what the Indyriffic guys do in the US -- only they rush through their sequences so it looks "cool".

Here's a question I have: A lot of times, the tag matches seem to start off slowly. The guys will take turns doing some exhibition matwork and maybe a few strikes. It's all very mellow and myturn-yourturn. Then as the match goes on, they kick up the intensity. I have been considering this "slow starting" to be a weakness of the match, when I come across it. I have seen it enough times now in 2011 and 2012 matches, though, that I wonder if it's just a convention? Guys like Terry and Panther simply get to take turns running through some transitions and spots with the younger guys, who get to show what they can do? Is this just something I should get used to seeing?

Fantastic info in this thread, and I look forward to spending some time with the suggested matches.

Great discussion. But then what are the very good (or great?) Haitch matches where he's not being massively put over by his partner? (like the Foley 2000 matches, which are as much Mick as anything) Someone mentioned Eugene at Summerslam 04. The Iron Man in 2000. What else is worth tracking down or re-watching? It should just about all be on YT or DM.

During one segment of Edwards/O'Reilly grappling on the mat, I was thinking that they all might do some interesting work in short-ish shoot style matches. If they could focus on strikes and kicks and matwork, there could be something there. Hell, you don't even have to 100% lose the prowres bits. The FUTEN guys have put on some fun stuff with a mix, but they lean heavily on shoot-style. Unfortunately, the ROH crowds don't want it. Or they have been trained to think that the BIG MOOVEZ with the headcrushings and falling off top ropes and the like are what's needed. And maybe NO ONE wants it, or BattlArts would still be alive. Maybe the attitude is, "If I'm going to watch fake grappling, I might as well watch the real thing and go MMA." That's the difficulty Davey and pals have created for themselves. The more you go that direction, the more it makes sense to just watch MMA instead. And so they have to include the silly big moves, to differentiate from true shoot-style. And then they lose the effect of both.

This is actually genius because I think it sums up exactly why I feel the way that I do. I'm tired of hearing the arguments pimped that I just have rose-colored glasses or am waxing nostalgic because I thought things used to be better. Not to mention that WWE puts out 5 hours of TV a week (More if you watch NXT). Who has time to keep up with it all, even if you want to do? Some of it may be bad quality. But at least there's a lot of it! (apologies to Groucho)

That's why I am drawn to a guy like Bennett. Yes, his ringwork needs improving. But he has a decent look compared to most of his colleagues. And more importantly, he has a character. That needs work, too. I was thinking last night that the difference between Bennett and Punk -- when the crowd brought it up -- was that Punk would have owned that crowd. Bennett just looked like an idiot. But he has something there, and it could be built up with training in FCW. Most of the other guys don't have it. One of the themes in this thread is that they have lost their stars, and it's true. They've built their belt around people like Richards, Strong, and Edwards because they have no one else. Re: CHIKARA. I liked that whole Steen/Kingston segment. Two fat, ugly dudes generating massive heat and crowd interest.

I've repeatedly heard vague but consistent mention about how many production errors there are on ROH's live broadcasts. Can anyone elaborate on what exactly they are? Well, the commentary sound issue was much better tonight. But one sloppy aspect was that whenever they would go to an extended replay or -- worse -- a feud video, they wouldn't shut off the house noise. So you get the intros and the music of the wrestlers drowning out the sound on the recap vid being shown to introduce the feud. BTW, to say something more positive: I really enjoyed watching the show with my iPhone in hand, live tweeting. I so rarely watch shows live that I forget how much fun it is to share that way. I did it last year during Mania, during the premiere ep of "Pan Am", and I am not sure when else. It helps to feel connected to other viewers when it's just you at home.

I meant it as a throwaway comment. But I should have known better.

I gotta agree with all your comments, Jingus. It is indeed a longtime thing with ROH to claim it's better than everyone. One of my very first posts on this forum back in 2008 was about Danielson shitting on the idea that he would ever want to go to WWE because ROH is where it's at (at 6th Anniv Show, maybe). But it just felt desperate tonight, like they were really really really trying to put themselves over as the only true choice. And from a technical standpoint, it doesn't help that on the last few shows, I couldn't even hear the commentary. The sound mix on GBH and FB were so off that the crowd noise overpowered the commentating. (It could just be my crappy TV speakers, but still.) So then we're left with crappy commentary that you can't hear. I guess that's a benefit -- but it's very distracting because you know it IS there, just underneath where you can make it out. Incidentally, I really liked Prazak on IWA:MS. And I thought heel Prazak was one of the few good things about ROH HD Net.

It's true. But here I am enjoying the show, more or less, and thinking maybe I will start paying attention to ROH again. And then along comes this main event. And I am right back to not wanting to watch. Fool me twice, shame on me. Or whatever. I had to laugh at one of the highlights being a Roderick Strong singles match. Nigel kept trying to make the point that he was just as important as some of the other guys in ROH's history. Kelly kept making the point that ROH is better than other companies. I got tired of both of them.

Well, gee, who'd have thunk it? A nice little ROH iPPV show with some good stuff. And then the main event of Richards/O'Reilly vs Edwards/Cole even had some good aspects. For 15 or 20 min. But it went on and on and on and on after that. Sucked away almost all the good will the show had given me towards ROH.

What a great idea for a show. And though the clips I have seen of Ventura and Jack somethingorother are fairly lame, the Heenan/Gorilla banter is gold.

Watching some 1987 Prime Time. There's a fun fast-paced Bret vs Bulldog match. Clarify for me, please? The 1980's PTW was a clip show, with full matches and clipped matches. Where are the matches coming from? Primarily house shows? PPVs? Other TV, like Superstars or All American?

Bob Backlund vs Ken Patera (Texas Death Match) 5/19/1980 Backlund has the crowd behind him, which is interesting because by this point he’d been champ for almost 2 years IIRC. Patera’s kind of a dick, and he makes the Grand Wizard undress him. Then the Wizard whispers several things into Ken’s ear, and Vince on commentary makes a joke about whether it’s an embrace or not. I like Backlund getting fed up with their stalling. Patera’s strikes and kicks look too soft. There’s a sense that Backlund is putting himself into the position for a lot of these spots. I don’t mean that he’s setting himself up for the spot. I mean things like throwing himself onto the top rope. Don’t know if that’s Ken or Bob’s fault, but it takes me out of the match when it happens. Patera dominates in the early minutes, and he looks a little better as they settle down into some grappling. Bob does a great job of selling the bearhug. As Bob begins to get into control, he does a beautiful atomic drop that bounces Patera almost all the way over the ropes. And then he throws one of the most realistic-looking piledrivers I have ever seen. Seriously, I don’t know how Patera wasn’t injured. Bob’s offense is so much better-looking. It takes them almost 15 minutes to do anything underhanded, which is bizarre for a NO DQ match. I feel like this match is lacking in the hate and intensity that should accompany a Tx Death Match. The crowd is loving it, though, and their excitement builds through a few nearfalls and an extended spot where Backlund lays on a stretch. (Patera’s escape from the stretch is pretty great, too, and it represents a turning point to where they start selling exhaustion and beatdown.) The second half really picks up the intensity. Backlund is bleeding pretty good. Patera’s punches whiff by a mile, though– and not intentionally. I really can’t stress enough how much Bob’s better than Patera in this match, even if he’s a bit cartoony at points. I got to where I was excited every time Backlund goes on offense. I won’t say Patera was terrible, but I do feel like he got carried. The after match was about as exciting as anything that happened in the bout itself. I wish they’d had that kind of intensity the whole time.

Well, the match was in Charlotte. Truth. I guess I just have distaste for the Face who gets cheered for cheating.

Terry is the older guy in bumblebee tights? Skyde is the belly guy in blue, with horns? Navarro is the guy built like Taz? Not always easy for me with luchadores anyway, but especially tough with no intros. I'm glad I finally broke my IWRG handheld cherry, though. :-)

Flair vs Vader, Starrcade 1993 One thing about Flair: He always seems to take his dirtiest player tricks and use them even when he is the underdog Face, and the crowd doesn't care, do they? In this match, he uses chairs, and he even bites Vader right in front of the ref. No one cares? Also, Flair's overseling has become comical to me. I that he's playing to the noseleed seats, but it'sust kind of silly. Very slow start to this match. Vader dominates for almost 10 min. If I am Flair, why would I ever seek to tie up when I know it's going to end up with me being in a painful wrist/knuckle lock - as happens twice in the first few minutes? The comebacks Flair does make are very pleasing to the otherwise mellow crowd. Vader gets major pioints for setting up Flair's comeback. He's so physically dominant that it's clear Flair is doing something magical in just chiopping him to the mat. The ending sequence is terrific and almost redeems what I find to be a more than competent but generally dull match. Vader missing the moonsault and then getting headbutted by Race from the top rope got me as excited as the crowd. But it was too little too late to allow for a high rating.

Black Terry, El Hijo Del Pirata Morgan & Skayde -vs- Negro Navarro, Trauma I & Trauma II (Todo X Todo, 2012-01-01) IWRG I'm on the fence about this one. The first eight minutes was quite awful. Yes, the holds were cool, but there was way too much coopoeration. It was as if they were demonstrating the cool submission holds they learned. Chikara will do this sort of exhibition, but they'll do it with humor and speed. Once the third pair gets into the ring - Pirata and ? - then it's like everyone remembers it's a competition. They pick up the pace, throw some nice strikes, go to the floor, and generally bring an excting match. So, 8 min of slow motion exhibition. 9 or 10 minutes of decent quick-paced competiion.

I watched Impact yesterday for the first time in months. I actually made it all the way through, which is something of a miracle given my track record with post-Hogan Impact shows. Lots of boring bits and a bit of silly. But I'll be positive and admit I liked a couple of things: --James Storm's "I'll finish my beer" promo CLASSIC! --Storm's agreeing to play Madden and then yanking the chord. --Anytime Sarah Stock was on the screen, especially speaking Spanish in her chola get-up. --Sting's ridiculous overacting, trying to be cool and energetic. So bad it's good territory for that one. [also, I have a secret shameful crush on Dixie Carter because she physically reminds me of a woman I work with, so happy to see her onscreen even if the segment felt forced] Hmm. Not much for a two hour show. No mention of the wrestling. Apart from the atrocious KO stuff, I have forgotten it already. But I did watch it all, and it's been at least a year since that happened.

Morishima vs Takayama (NOAH, 11/30/2001) In less than 3 minutes, Takayama gives Morishima plenty without looking weak himself. M attacks as T struts into the ring, hoping to put him away quickly with a flurry of power offense. When Takayama regains himself, he throws away his t-shirt and comes back with a vengeance. Almost not a match, it's so short. Really helps to sell the young Morishima. Morishima vs Vader (NOAH, 3/14/2002) Another short one for the young Takeshi. (Interesting: It looks like he's starting to grow his hair at this time.) He shows a lot more respect for Vader than he did Takayama, circling and looking for a beginning. Smart, too, since Vader's giant fists smash down over and over onto M's head when they finally lock up. He gets his revenge with about a million elbows to Vader's face, though. It's not always easy to tell with Vader, of course, but he looks legit pissed off during the second half this little match. He doesn't do much early on, and I wondered if he wasn't feeling well. But when he does get angry -- about the time he yells, "Son of a Bitch!" while in a half-crab hold -- I began to wonder. But whether a shoot or just a great rasslin character performance, his chokeslam from hell is a thing of beauty.