El-P

One obvious blind spot to me is that the discourse is only focused on inner working of pro-wrestling, while ignoring the outside factors that may have played a consequential part. The old France of Pompidou was not the France of Giscard d'Estaing in the 70's. Mai 68 changed society a whole lot. Ditto 1981 which had huge effect on the structure of medias in the country. There's many reasons why the mythology of French pro-wrestling belongs to the 50's and 60's mostly, with the 70's already showing a decline.

So true. Too true almost.

Because I think that ended up costing them matches lately... I think. That's as good a reason I could dig up. Because otherwise, yeah, it's just totally ass-backward considering what the whole gimmick of the group is. Of course as a pure dynamic it works wonders and the day Garcia pops Daddy Magic in the face and does the dance the pop is gonna be huge, so there. I do think Daddy Magic blames Garcia for costing them (and himself) matches lately because of it though...

And since I'm a generous fellow nonetheless, the VOD of a famous French pro-wrestling Twitch streamer watching the opening and the Flesh Gordon match (against Carlos Plata) from the first 1991 New Catch show in TF1, which I watched and probably even taped at the time. This is such a treasure. OMG LOOK AT THE TITLE ! HE CALLED FLESH GORDON THE FRENCH HULK HOGAN ! THIS IS PROOF RIGHT THERE ! Yeah, no, it's ironic. Enjoy nonetheless people. Or don't. But you won't find this anywhere else.

(EDIT : yeah, whatever, this is going nowhere and it's just tedious at this point) Talk about exposing yourself with that one Big Daddy was a huge star. No one knows who Flesh Gordon is.

Even past his prime when I saw him live, he was obviously still pretty good, and yes, his finisher looked cool and would have looked cool anywhere at the time he did it, including in the early 90's. He said it himself in interviews, he thought the old-school wrestling was dusty and kinda boring. Talk about wanting to replace the old ways, there it is. The bolded part though. That's what I've been trying to get at for a while now. There was no pro-wrestling culture anymore in France in the 80's and so on. It was not part of popular culture anymore. There are probably inner reasons that are due to the business itself, but most probably other reasons too that have nothing to do with pro-wrestling and that have to do with changes in French society (not to mention the influence of the US entertainment industry with the new Hollywood blockbusters like Star Wars and such, new cartoons including Japanese anime that we got super early, so many things changed at that time, France got the very first hip-hop show on TV in the world too for instance, there were so many new exciting things happening). Even when Canal + brought WWF, there was no pro-wrestling culture in France. Christophe Agius, who is a few years younger than me but started watching earlier, mentioned it in lenghty interviews he did on his Youtube channel a few years ago. Even though he was a fan, he was basically alone. Pro-wrestling was not a thing. I experienced the same thing, I had no friend in middle-school nor high-school who watched WWF. There were enough people that they could do a few houseshows, yes, because Hulk Hogan was a global star and there's no escaping that. But it was never a part of mainstream pop culture at all. Pro-wrestling became popular again not when ICWA ran a few shows with indy wrestlers from abroad in the early 00's, but when WWE caught on in the late 00's because they were on NT1 and had a unique duo of announcers. For a few years, pro-wrestling, through WWE (and because of Agius & Chereau, who carried that stuff like they were Russel & Brown and literally built an entire generation of fans), became part of the pop culture. In 2013 not one but TWO pro-wrestling movies were produced in France. There was a lucha themed bar in Paris. John Cena became a meme in Youtube videos that had nothing at all to do with pro-wrestling. That's when pro-wrestling, as part of pop culture in France, became relevant again, for the first time since some time in the seventies, maybe the late sixties. Pro-wrestling was not part of France pop/entertainment culture at all from the end of the "golden days" until the days of the "Catch Attack" generation on NT1 in the late 00's. That is a fact.

That too. But the gimmick itself I find overrated anyway. There was a novelty aspect in the 80's, but the submit or surrender stip I always though made for a lame anticlimatic finish (Schiavone said the same thing in the past). Its reputation of great gimmick match really comes from the 92 match to me, which was the apex of the style. After that point, it was pretty much all downhill in WCW. Without the use of blood in WWE, I have no idea how they even get that big time violence feel. BCC vs Elite was awesome, but that's really the only one I enjoyed in AEW, the two other ones where indeed way to long and had the annoying WWE trope of having to do a cage jump too.

Holy shit, you did not dig up some article from the PQR about some shows in Montauban and Boé (what, where ?) as a "proof" that he was some kind of a big deal, right ? You realize how utterly ridiculous that is to anyone with *any* clue about France ? The irony is that in this interview that you linked, he actually is more brutal toward old-school French pro-wrestling that whatever fictional "aim to supplant the old school style" ICWA had. Trying to find bits and pieces that confirms a preconceived idea or narrative is the WORST way of doing any research. I repeat and it's the last time, feel free to not listen : Flesh Gordon was not, never, at any point, a household name. He's not known, he's not a star, he's not a TV personality, he's not part of pop culture at all. Do with that what you want, it's really not a hill worth dying on.

Mental health issues suck. Hopefully she does what's best for her. That Rampage crowd was pretty hot. Roddy Strong is all about saying words with intensity. Talk about a creative shake-up for the guy who had the "great worker, no character" stigma for most of his career. I'm totally behind the 2.0 & Outcast sitcom drama. FTR vs Vikingo & Komander was terrific and much better than I expected considering the clash of styles. Wheeler (Cash, not Yuta, damn, and AEW got three ADAM too ?) seemed more at ease doing lucha spots than Dax. He also has been hitting the gym hard lately it seems, look at the guns on this guy (see what I did ?). FTR vs House of Black is also something I can get behind yesterday.

War Games is actually a super difficult match to really shine in, which is why many War Games match pretty much suck (and the gimmick has always been overrated anyway, just sayin'). That would be the last place I would debut Cargill, who's still basically a greenhorn who had other people bumping for her to make her look good in short matches. Plus, she would be "one of many" as opposed to have all the focus on her, which is what you want. Rumble would have been perfect with a different timing, because it's easy to have her shine in that context and clean up the ring. I'm curious how this is gonna turn out, because she really strikes me as someone who has zero interest in pro-wrestling apart from it being a vehicule to be famous and make more money. Which, in the current context, won't be looked as favorably by workhorses in the company who have build their legacy from the ground up through hard work in a much different and less favorable environment. But in the TKO context, will be perfect for her if she does get over and ends up meaning something, which did not happen in AEW (yeah, she got over at first, then very clearly overstayed her welcome as an attraction doing the same thing over and over again, and she was never a mover at all either). Of course, having the WWE (and TKO) machine behind you changes everything, because their marketing strength is without commune measure.

It just gives a totally false idea that this guy was anything like the big stars of the golden days and it's just very misleading. He belongs in the 80's and post-80's part of the article. He was what he was. He doesn't even belong in the same discussion as those guys.

I haven't read the book, although I might at some point (I credit this thread), but I've heard the guy on a radio show to promote it, alongside Marc Mercier of all people. No idea if this was posted earlier in the thread and if anyone speaks French well enough to understand, but there's this cool little documentary from 1982. The names from the "golden era" that are dropped here during the intruction are le Bourreau, Chéri-Bibi, l'Ange Blanc, Delaporte & Bollet. What amazes me is how mostly devoid of bullshit the interviews are and how respectful of pro-wrestling the whole thing is, presenting it as a craft in pretty much a post-kayfabe way. Then again, obviously I have no idea if that's true, but Roger Couderc talks about he basically created L'Ange Blanc's character (including the costume), after a request from Goldstein (who he says was managing Le Cirque d'Hiver at the time). I have no idea if Couderc was familiar with El Santo, but that was basically it. The funny part is how he explained he chose Caracas as its origin city because it was much farther and more exotic than any place in Spain. Also, Delaporte clearly says that venues have emptied because of lack of new stars, which is why he had to resort to foreign wrestlers (you can see bits of a Yaso Fuji match). The last part evokes topless wrestling but there's no picture shown that would be NSFW. Interesting how the woman pretty much talks about the etiquette as a heel dealing with hostile crowds : "We have to right to insult them back, but not hit them. It's a game." On a personal level, it's always funny when I think of what l'Elysée Montmartre was, as I went there many times for concerts when I lived in Paris in the 00's and 10's. It also pretty much burned down a few years back, although it has since been reopened.

One issue with Metallik, is that ten years ago or so, he was the hot CMLL prospect as Mascara Dorada. He was all the hype during the NJPW Fantastica Mania and such. He was a star then. Then fast forward to post-WWE, not only the perception about him as shifted dramatically, as he's seen as a JTTS from WWE, therefore someone with no cred for a push unless you're TNA in 2010, but he's also been pushed way back in term of spectacular work by the Vikingo's and the Komander's of the world. He was the King of the Ropes, now he's just a good luchador who is not as spectacular as the new generation. Wrap all that into one and you probably get a frustrated Metalik with a distorted view of himself. I would say, bad choice of career in the grand scheme of things. He sure made way more money in WWE than he would have in Mexico, but not millions either I would guess, but now his value in the US has been pretty much killed in term of being a hot commodity, and the "eso no me functiona, hermano" (or something, I don't speak Spanish) bit is only gonna fuck him up even more, including toward AAA. La Parka can do this (well, he should not, but he can), Metalik... no so much. Makes you wonder where Dragon Lee is gonna end up in 5 years... And honestly, the same goes for most luchador going to AEW right now that are not called Rush or Lucha Brothers. Komander is the amazingly spectacular guy who never wins. Vikingo is more protected because he's a big star in AAA, but...

Damn ! I don't know, but most probably Clermont-Ferrand. And Flesh Gordon was never a household name. This needs to be scrapped. The only time he was part of a "mainstream" TV show was when he showed up on a Strip-Tease episode, the documentary series. That's not even a blip. FWIW, Carpentier often referred to Ben Chemoul and Chéri Bibi as big stars when he talked about that period during WWF shows. This very serious sociological book about French pro-wrestling calls him Exbrayat. https://books.openedition.org/pumi/13531?lang=fr Most probably was written in a way at a time, then evolved (the name exist today mostly as Exbrayat). Also, establishing what's correct and not correct in French writing is a bitch. Don't even get me started.

I like Butcher & Blade quite a bit, but they did get a lot of TV time for a while, more than anyone would have expected at first really. I always enjoyed them as that gatekeeper team, and with ROH around, I sure would have enjoyed them being featured over there more prominently. In AEW though, it's as far as they were gonna go. No idea for how long they are around still, I sure would not mind to see a reunion in TNA, the big fish in small pond stuff would work wonders there, especially against smaller guys who would make them looks like monsters. All things considered, and despite the big missteps with the first weeks of Copeland being over-focused on and *gasp* Flair showing up, this has been a really solid build-up to Full Gear. I feel like getting more PPV will make things easier for booking toward a goal, which is something that has hurt them in the past (including having to wait forever to do such and such match that was supposed to happen but did not because of injury). Dynamite was high quality of matches and focused promos toward very clear match-ups at the PPV. Can't ask for much more really. Swerve looks like a surefire world champ more and more with each passing week. The Gunns have to be some of the most improved of the year, ditto Julia Hart & Skye Blue. Glad to see Red Velvet back too. Mariah May is an excellent catch, hopefully used well (more TV time for women Coach TK. That's still much needed. Making progress in term of character work though).

Damn, I had no idea they did a show post Paris in 93 (which even had a VHS edition btw. Which I bought. *sight*)! With Hogan no less ! In Toulon ? So random. And Brutus Beefcake vs Terry Taylor. Duggan vs Bastion Booger. Whoever the hell the Predator was. Vintage quality 93 WWF here.

I really only seen the 2022 video from FFCP, so maybe it's more a case of them evolving toward more of that style, but started off as more "old-school French wrestling", but I really couldn't say. The 1993 show is "significant" in that it was the last from the Canal + era. After that point WWE only came back during the Cena era, when they really got big in France, thanks to the Catch Attack show, carried by Agius & Chereau's announcing.

Something akin to "Coke, hookers and headlocks", in ancient gaelic.

And now IMPACT gets ZSJ, tagging with Alexander vs MCMG. They seriously have been cooking lately.

Some notes : Flesh Gordon is not and has never been a household name. He was never even a blip on the radar of mainstream culture at all. The second run of New Catch on TF1 was in 1991, not 1990. WWF also ran the Palais Omnisport de Bercy in April of 1993 (after Mania 9), the last time they did it before some time in the 00's. One memorable Nasty Boys vs HeadShrinker match where they broke tons of wooden chairs, and I believe Yoko vs Hacksaw as the main event. The ICWA really did not have a goal to "supplant the old school European style in France". It was founded by people raised on WWF wrestling (Pierre Booster Fontaine, trained by Carpentier in Montreal, and Christophe Agius, who was already announcing US wrestling for French TV at the time), but it came from just the desire to have some nice wrestling shows with stuff they liked. There was no ideology of "supplanting" anything behind it, because there was nothing to supplant, really. Also, if you look at the latest FFCP videos from 2022, they're absolutely a modern, "american US indie" style promotion right now. Which is not surprising, since probably their biggest name is Tom LaRuffa, who was in Lance Storm's reality show, worked both in TNA and NXT (and is also an anti-vaxx conspiracy theory nutjob, to say the least). Otherwise, really good write-up as far as I can tell. Kudos for putting that out there.

If he only wanted to maximize his cash-out, he would not have bothered getting back controlling the creative. The power-plays in WWE for the last 18 months have been much more interesting than whatever booking they've did apart from that small window where Sami Zayn got the Bloodline storyline going. Hunter went from being ousted from NXT and having really serious health issues, to being the man in power for the entire company, then not so much in power, then in power again.

Maybe they simply watched the Samhain PPV and thought "hum, nope".

Vince selling stocks is, interesting. The more it goes, the more it seems the evil plan to get back into full power is blowing in his face. Well, money wise of course, it's ridiculous. Apparently gets him 700M$. Who the fuck needs that kind of money anyway (no to mention at his age, but at any age really) ? Give 699 millions back to the community already. But anyway, what a year for Vince, that Netflix show should be put on hold forever, because the story ain't finished yet.

Yep. That was peak AEW in term of feeling uniquely different. Totally got me through the pandemic too.

The Bunny gone. Talk about a waste. She did a few things early on, but they never even began to tap into what she was able to be. That's the perfect picture illustration of what has been one issue with the women division focusing on only two of three names at a time because there's just no TV time for more. I hope she goes back to TNA where she can actually shine as a character.